Why someone keep saying about GOV are killing people? Hey!!! doing that is not fun. Why don’t we ask for the reason behind. They shoot because there’re reason for doing so. And before they make a shot they say, the tell, they make cautions and because the protesters resist to going on[shooting back, burn another tires, etc.], lastly they shoot.
While somebody keep saying about the number of casualties, they should know opportunities the reds got last week. And they should also consider the way the protest going on right now.
should we stop that or let anybody burn what/where they want? should we surrender to this kind of violence(not peaceful protest as claimed) or we have to look forward for the standard setting?
STOP PUSHING THESE PEOPLE TO DIE FOR YOUR INTERESTS, THAKSIN, PLEASE STOP.
“There is considerable truth to the old joke that Thailand is the world’s longest lasting fledgling democracy”. Duh – really ?
Have you seen some of the countries in Latin America, or Africa
(eg. Liberia) for example ?
In the beginning was Sondhi, a media mogul, who befriended Thaksin, who offered an interesting cell telephone solution. When the Thai baht collapsed in 1997, Sondhi went bankrupt, but Thaksin soon became not only a billionaire, but prime minister. Thaksin hired several of Sondhi’s people to important positions, at least one of whom took measures to significantly dilute the impact of Sondhi’s bankruptcy.
For whatever reason, Thaksin fired that person and Sondhi soon went on the air and to public meetings claiming that Thaksin had disrespected HM the K. Sondhi, who provided good entertainment at his rallies, gathered huge crowds and a great groundswell of support. Thaksin was then deposed by a coup.
With free elections, Thaksin’s party came back to power and Sondhi’s crowds rallied yet again and lived in and around Government House and the airport for different periods of time. No serious attempt was made to expel them.
A court then ruled that the new pro-Thaksin prime minister had engaged in a conflict of interest, consisting of accepting about $500 to teach two cooking classes on television. He had also been teaching the cooking classes before becoming prime minister.
The decision was effective immediately and there was no appeal. Furthermore, Thaksin’s party was disbanded and many of its officials were banned from public office for periods of five or 10 years.
The present party came to power.
Then a court ruling was scheduled on whether to allow Thaksin to keep some, part or all of about $2.5 billion he had left in Thai banks. Why had he never removed it when he was still PM? Who knows?
He had gotten much of the money by selling his cell phone business, tax free, to Singapore. He made up the rules enabling him to get the tax-free status while PM.
The court only let Thaksin keep about 2/3 of a billion dollars. Hi Red Shirts promised a “final rally.” They were going to make sure he was treated fairly and got his money.
At first the rally seemed like a country fair. The government may have done well to position it that way. Many countries close their downtown areas to traffic and boost tourism through such festivals. Plus, there seemed to be a joyous complicity between the police, soldier and Red Shirts in the air, at least prior to April 10.
Things have turned out quite differently, of course.
Here is one question to consider. The Nazis rose to power democratically and probably would have been re-elected democratically even as the Allies were entering Berlin.
I certainly don’t think the Red Shirts are Nazis, in fact, I have a soft spot in my heart for the underdog. Yet, I can’t help but remember Thaksin’s roaming extra-judicial execution squads gunning down purported drug traffickers and who knows how many innocents.
I also recall at least one incident when suspected insurgents were baked to death in a military truck, parked sealed up in the jungle sun down south. I don’t know if Thaksin ordered that Nazi-like incident, but it happened on his watch.
The question I want to ask is: how will this play out:
1. Let the mobs run rampant and do nothing?
2. Massacre lots of people and trigger a slow (or fast) nationwide rebellion?
3. Dissolve the government and elect a Thaksin-sponsored leadership?
– Rumor in twitter as Andrew mentioned, army would disperse the protesters and leave bunch of heavy weapons inside Lumpini Park, and blame those weapons belongs to the Red.
Earlier (yesterday night),
– Two Air Force soldiers drove their TOYOTA pickup through a check point at Silom Road last night (around 2 a.m. of 18 May), got shot several times, the car was shot, a Sergeant was dead at the hospital, shot at head. Another one, Air Force Captain is seriously injured and being hospitalized. It’s clearly friendly fired.
No official statement issued. Only Thai news papers report.
– A group of Senate led by Gen. Lerdrath Rattanavanich, appointed senate, met with the UDD leaders at the camp, offering mediation for peace talk. The UDD leaders express their safety concerns if they come out from their base.
Seems like there are many professor of Thailand’s business here.Let me tell you professors.
Hi Mr.Taksin’s Presenters. How did you know the problems of Thailand.I am Thai as I knew the beginning of the the conflict is from Taksin ,he sparket ut tv programme ‘s leader whom present the truth of Taksin’s bad sides that nobody knew .And Taksin tried to stop the opposite sides.
You guys would never feel like we Thais how we have to force with Taksin’s party paid for the election votes. Nobody could say coz the police wouldn’t help as Taksin have good relationship with the police that most of his friends have controll and get good paid from Taksin.
We all knew how bad he is ,but I wouldn’t want to say coz it’s just like to play the piano for the Buffaloes and the buffaloes in Holland never get what the thais feel and why we love our King .Here is the speech of the real Thai filmstar in Thailand whom said it out loud and you guys whom are trying to make Taksin Popular .Just remind yourselves .If you Guys ,don’t love the King ,Just get out from Thailand coz this is Hismajesty’s Land and you guys should appreciate this.
Don’t fart from your mouth guys and what I will remind you ,the brillions Businessman Taksin is good to sell even to sell his own land.
Let’s open your eyes and hearts by seeing this video clip.
I myself could even die to protect the King ‘s Monarchy but I would nver bend my head down for Taksin the evil corrupted man. Could you guys die for your own king and why ?
GDP for Taksin and you business guys = Greedy Developed Power
Discussing in the middle of the conflict- May 18th
Today I woke up with the sound of rain, ticking on my windows. A nice change. I got out in the terse sky, free from the particle of burned tires and shoots. I drove toward Ngan-Dumphli, passing in an empty Suan Phlu were most of the shops have been closed, especially the ubiquitous 7-11, windows covered with newspapers.
The situation in Ngan-Dumphli is stable now with people hidden underneath the tires barricade, few journalists around, and no sound from the military whom they say have moved back to the Lumpini Area. The athmosphere is much more relaxed, people tuck to the wall jocking around for the amusement of journalists. A man is carrying a yellow helmets on a stick and putting in out of the barrier, hoping a sniper would shoot. A couple of young man throw fireworks on the street and even adventure in the middle of Rama IV to have a better shot. A guy in a green and white helmet shouts to the foreign journalists in English “do you want to see our snipers? Take your camera, we will give you our snipers, take picture” as the people around laugh loudly. A guy pulls out a small metal tube and launches from it a small firework.
@ Leeyiankun. Probably the rank and file reds across the country still do want early elections but the hard core leaders and Thaksin rejected the offer for their own spurious self-serving reasons. Now the same leaders are intent on keeping the reds in their territory transfixed like the faithful eagerly waiting for the Jonestown massacre.
Of the two articles Hamish McDonald’s was by far the better.
Factual, well thought-out, serious, accurate analysis.
Hartcher’s at times descends into an hysterical, factually incorrect rant – badly marring his otherwise pretty accurate overall picture of Thailand’s current predicament, and how it got into this.
One by one, the Hartcher articles faults, in the order they appear (not order of importance), are :
1) He begins :
“as Thai troops moved to confront tens of thousands of protesters on a Bangkok university campus one evening in the political crisis of 1992”.
Scholars of journalism would like to know – where is Sydney Morning Herald coverage of this showdown at Ramkamhaeng Univesrity ?
Apart from some mention by Louise Williams, it’s almost entirely only brief photo accounts, including one of a love-lorn
couple idyllically beside a Bangkok lake somewhere, presumably within Ramkamhaeng.
(To be continued, due to NM Blocking)
@pff121, I was thinking exactly the same.
The thing is that such action could backfire at him, possibly in the form of a sniper’s bullet in the head if he does so before the inevitable event.
Of course there is spin, misleading, mistaken, false, biased, uncertain information from the foreign media. That is in the nature of things. Complex events involving many thousands of people. Who has all of the truth?
But you say that this is not a problem because for Thai people ” in any case it’s not like they get their news from them” .
Some of them surely do. Some of them are surely mislead by these wicked propagandists. What would be the point of banning websites such as prachatai if they weren’t? Why would wikipedia entries need to be banned? Why would lese majeste laws be needed if Thai people have some mystical ability to arrive at correct conclusions? Why would they have to encourage a culture of anonymity?
There are two choices for the Thai government: allow people to make up their minds on the basis of free access to information or to ban the wrong information. They have already made that choice. They have decided in their wisdom to protect the Thai people from the wrong information and to be the arbiters of truth.
It’s just very difficult, but not impossible, these days to do that.
Regardless of how incredible the news releases from CRES become, a large proportion of people will except them as truthful. This is not out of naivety but rather because they desire peace and good government. Disbelief in their leaders would necessarily require a fundamental change in their thinking that , until pressed, most people are not willing to make.
An interesting interview of Thaksin’s new lawyer, Robert Amsterdam, here in which the legal eagle argues that The Bank of Thailand is an institution created by a revolutionary decree after the 2006 coup. I hope he didn’t have his metre running.
In the US, there are a lot of guns. Still demonstrations are quelled using acceptable principles that respect lives. Anyone watching the current Thai protests will see that their are few guns on the side of the protesters.
In the LA riots (1994), everyone had guns. The police were able to restore order without targeted hits, without shooting looters, yes at some point the military (National Guard) were called in, and they manned checkpoints, one junior grade officer had the ammo clips for all of the members of his team and the clips were separate from the guns. Bullets were counted and if used would have to be accounted for. Their were few or no deaths caused by the Guard. Protesters were arrested, not murdered. (And when they were tried, received significantly lower sentences than would be normal for whatever charges were laid.)
It is obvious that the ‘sticks and stones’ protesters are far outgunned by the state forces against them even if there is an odd gun here or there.
Back on topic, Seh Dang was an heroic and outspoken figure. He had a definite following and he will be missed by many. His death is part of the current problem, not a part of any solution. Whoever thought it was, made a mistake.
Having just returned from rally stage in one of the northern provinces, I can confirm that there is strong belief that dawn crackdown is in the offings. Note however that this contradicts this evening’s press conference from Panitan, though we all know how useful his utterances are. I was also advised that there would be serious consequences in the provinces should crackdown unfold, and more particularly if any of the leaders were taken out.
Such potential violence by RS was explained to me in terms of being the only option left for them to have their voice heard in light of the refusal to listen to their electoral voices…
Of interest, it was also suggested that constant rumours of prominent RS / Pheu Thai leaders leaving the country is not, as the Thai media paints it, about escape, but rather an effort to rally international support for the movement, particularly through petitioning international UN channels.
Since I’m in Thailand now so saying anything about the board of director will be a threat for me, anyhow, regarding the matter I think you should take a look what happened in 6 October 1976 for reference. This protest is somewhat similar to that one, but on a much larger scale.
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Bangkok: This is a massacre
Why someone keep saying about GOV are killing people? Hey!!! doing that is not fun. Why don’t we ask for the reason behind. They shoot because there’re reason for doing so. And before they make a shot they say, the tell, they make cautions and because the protesters resist to going on[shooting back, burn another tires, etc.], lastly they shoot.
While somebody keep saying about the number of casualties, they should know opportunities the reds got last week. And they should also consider the way the protest going on right now.
should we stop that or let anybody burn what/where they want? should we surrender to this kind of violence(not peaceful protest as claimed) or we have to look forward for the standard setting?
STOP PUSHING THESE PEOPLE TO DIE FOR YOUR INTERESTS, THAKSIN, PLEASE STOP.
A chance for peace?
Update: at 2:03 a.m. 19 May
– Nuttawut is on stage, telling people the army plan to raid at early morning (4-5 a.m.).
– Photos at Victory Monument & Din Daeng
http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/board/id/45493
Can’t sleep tonight.
Too many eggs in the royal basket
“There is considerable truth to the old joke that Thailand is the world’s longest lasting fledgling democracy”. Duh – really ?
Have you seen some of the countries in Latin America, or Africa
(eg. Liberia) for example ?
Day 5 – how much longer?
In the beginning was Sondhi, a media mogul, who befriended Thaksin, who offered an interesting cell telephone solution. When the Thai baht collapsed in 1997, Sondhi went bankrupt, but Thaksin soon became not only a billionaire, but prime minister. Thaksin hired several of Sondhi’s people to important positions, at least one of whom took measures to significantly dilute the impact of Sondhi’s bankruptcy.
For whatever reason, Thaksin fired that person and Sondhi soon went on the air and to public meetings claiming that Thaksin had disrespected HM the K. Sondhi, who provided good entertainment at his rallies, gathered huge crowds and a great groundswell of support. Thaksin was then deposed by a coup.
With free elections, Thaksin’s party came back to power and Sondhi’s crowds rallied yet again and lived in and around Government House and the airport for different periods of time. No serious attempt was made to expel them.
A court then ruled that the new pro-Thaksin prime minister had engaged in a conflict of interest, consisting of accepting about $500 to teach two cooking classes on television. He had also been teaching the cooking classes before becoming prime minister.
The decision was effective immediately and there was no appeal. Furthermore, Thaksin’s party was disbanded and many of its officials were banned from public office for periods of five or 10 years.
The present party came to power.
Then a court ruling was scheduled on whether to allow Thaksin to keep some, part or all of about $2.5 billion he had left in Thai banks. Why had he never removed it when he was still PM? Who knows?
He had gotten much of the money by selling his cell phone business, tax free, to Singapore. He made up the rules enabling him to get the tax-free status while PM.
The court only let Thaksin keep about 2/3 of a billion dollars. Hi Red Shirts promised a “final rally.” They were going to make sure he was treated fairly and got his money.
At first the rally seemed like a country fair. The government may have done well to position it that way. Many countries close their downtown areas to traffic and boost tourism through such festivals. Plus, there seemed to be a joyous complicity between the police, soldier and Red Shirts in the air, at least prior to April 10.
Things have turned out quite differently, of course.
Here is one question to consider. The Nazis rose to power democratically and probably would have been re-elected democratically even as the Allies were entering Berlin.
I certainly don’t think the Red Shirts are Nazis, in fact, I have a soft spot in my heart for the underdog. Yet, I can’t help but remember Thaksin’s roaming extra-judicial execution squads gunning down purported drug traffickers and who knows how many innocents.
I also recall at least one incident when suspected insurgents were baked to death in a military truck, parked sealed up in the jungle sun down south. I don’t know if Thaksin ordered that Nazi-like incident, but it happened on his watch.
The question I want to ask is: how will this play out:
1. Let the mobs run rampant and do nothing?
2. Massacre lots of people and trigger a slow (or fast) nationwide rebellion?
3. Dissolve the government and elect a Thaksin-sponsored leadership?
A chance for peace?
Update at 1.06 a.m. of 19 May
Photo of people and red shirt gathering at Lad Prao district.
http://rajdumnern.ownforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=584
– Rumor in twitter as Andrew mentioned, army would disperse the protesters and leave bunch of heavy weapons inside Lumpini Park, and blame those weapons belongs to the Red.
Earlier (yesterday night),
– Two Air Force soldiers drove their TOYOTA pickup through a check point at Silom Road last night (around 2 a.m. of 18 May), got shot several times, the car was shot, a Sergeant was dead at the hospital, shot at head. Another one, Air Force Captain is seriously injured and being hospitalized. It’s clearly friendly fired.
No official statement issued. Only Thai news papers report.
– A group of Senate led by Gen. Lerdrath Rattanavanich, appointed senate, met with the UDD leaders at the camp, offering mediation for peace talk. The UDD leaders express their safety concerns if they come out from their base.
Paul Handley replies to comments
It’s typically Handley – and typical of so many of the above posts : intellectual incest as a mutual admiration art-form.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
Seems like there are many professor of Thailand’s business here.Let me tell you professors.
Hi Mr.Taksin’s Presenters. How did you know the problems of Thailand.I am Thai as I knew the beginning of the the conflict is from Taksin ,he sparket ut tv programme ‘s leader whom present the truth of Taksin’s bad sides that nobody knew .And Taksin tried to stop the opposite sides.
You guys would never feel like we Thais how we have to force with Taksin’s party paid for the election votes. Nobody could say coz the police wouldn’t help as Taksin have good relationship with the police that most of his friends have controll and get good paid from Taksin.
We all knew how bad he is ,but I wouldn’t want to say coz it’s just like to play the piano for the Buffaloes and the buffaloes in Holland never get what the thais feel and why we love our King .Here is the speech of the real Thai filmstar in Thailand whom said it out loud and you guys whom are trying to make Taksin Popular .Just remind yourselves .If you Guys ,don’t love the King ,Just get out from Thailand coz this is Hismajesty’s Land and you guys should appreciate this.
Don’t fart from your mouth guys and what I will remind you ,the brillions Businessman Taksin is good to sell even to sell his own land.
Let’s open your eyes and hearts by seeing this video clip.
I myself could even die to protect the King ‘s Monarchy but I would nver bend my head down for Taksin the evil corrupted man. Could you guys die for your own king and why ?
GDP for Taksin and you business guys = Greedy Developed Power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtgJMOEREMw
A chance for peace?
Discussing in the middle of the conflict- May 18th
Today I woke up with the sound of rain, ticking on my windows. A nice change. I got out in the terse sky, free from the particle of burned tires and shoots. I drove toward Ngan-Dumphli, passing in an empty Suan Phlu were most of the shops have been closed, especially the ubiquitous 7-11, windows covered with newspapers.
The situation in Ngan-Dumphli is stable now with people hidden underneath the tires barricade, few journalists around, and no sound from the military whom they say have moved back to the Lumpini Area. The athmosphere is much more relaxed, people tuck to the wall jocking around for the amusement of journalists. A man is carrying a yellow helmets on a stick and putting in out of the barrier, hoping a sniper would shoot. A couple of young man throw fireworks on the street and even adventure in the middle of Rama IV to have a better shot. A guy in a green and white helmet shouts to the foreign journalists in English “do you want to see our snipers? Take your camera, we will give you our snipers, take picture” as the people around laugh loudly. A guy pulls out a small metal tube and launches from it a small firework.
continues with pictures on sopranz.blogspot.com
Too many eggs in the royal basket
@ Leeyiankun. Probably the rank and file reds across the country still do want early elections but the hard core leaders and Thaksin rejected the offer for their own spurious self-serving reasons. Now the same leaders are intent on keeping the reds in their territory transfixed like the faithful eagerly waiting for the Jonestown massacre.
A chance for peace?
Of the two articles Hamish McDonald’s was by far the better.
Factual, well thought-out, serious, accurate analysis.
Hartcher’s at times descends into an hysterical, factually incorrect rant – badly marring his otherwise pretty accurate overall picture of Thailand’s current predicament, and how it got into this.
One by one, the Hartcher articles faults, in the order they appear (not order of importance), are :
1) He begins :
“as Thai troops moved to confront tens of thousands of protesters on a Bangkok university campus one evening in the political crisis of 1992”.
Scholars of journalism would like to know – where is Sydney Morning Herald coverage of this showdown at Ramkamhaeng Univesrity ?
Apart from some mention by Louise Williams, it’s almost entirely only brief photo accounts, including one of a love-lorn
couple idyllically beside a Bangkok lake somewhere, presumably within Ramkamhaeng.
(To be continued, due to NM Blocking)
A chance for peace?
A very interesting article by the Sydney Morning Herald along with one of the funniest and obviously well taken critiques of foreign journalism…
I wonder if Peter Hartcher will be able to get a Thai visa any time soon?
Assumptions about the next in line
@pff121, I was thinking exactly the same.
The thing is that such action could backfire at him, possibly in the form of a sniper’s bullet in the head if he does so before the inevitable event.
A chance for peace?
Chris Hacker (c. 7),
Of course there is spin, misleading, mistaken, false, biased, uncertain information from the foreign media. That is in the nature of things. Complex events involving many thousands of people. Who has all of the truth?
But you say that this is not a problem because for Thai people ” in any case it’s not like they get their news from them” .
Some of them surely do. Some of them are surely mislead by these wicked propagandists. What would be the point of banning websites such as prachatai if they weren’t? Why would wikipedia entries need to be banned? Why would lese majeste laws be needed if Thai people have some mystical ability to arrive at correct conclusions? Why would they have to encourage a culture of anonymity?
There are two choices for the Thai government: allow people to make up their minds on the basis of free access to information or to ban the wrong information. They have already made that choice. They have decided in their wisdom to protect the Thai people from the wrong information and to be the arbiters of truth.
It’s just very difficult, but not impossible, these days to do that.
Day 5 – how much longer?
Have you ever wondered why the British government has been silent over the slaughter? I came across this fact : http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=21285
Bangkok: This is a massacre
“People will believe what they want to believe”
-Henry Louis Mencken
Regardless of how incredible the news releases from CRES become, a large proportion of people will except them as truthful. This is not out of naivety but rather because they desire peace and good government. Disbelief in their leaders would necessarily require a fundamental change in their thinking that , until pressed, most people are not willing to make.
A chance for peace?
An interesting interview of Thaksin’s new lawyer, Robert Amsterdam, here in which the legal eagle argues that The Bank of Thailand is an institution created by a revolutionary decree after the 2006 coup. I hope he didn’t have his metre running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn0rDxgssfY
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
In the US, there are a lot of guns. Still demonstrations are quelled using acceptable principles that respect lives. Anyone watching the current Thai protests will see that their are few guns on the side of the protesters.
In the LA riots (1994), everyone had guns. The police were able to restore order without targeted hits, without shooting looters, yes at some point the military (National Guard) were called in, and they manned checkpoints, one junior grade officer had the ammo clips for all of the members of his team and the clips were separate from the guns. Bullets were counted and if used would have to be accounted for. Their were few or no deaths caused by the Guard. Protesters were arrested, not murdered. (And when they were tried, received significantly lower sentences than would be normal for whatever charges were laid.)
It is obvious that the ‘sticks and stones’ protesters are far outgunned by the state forces against them even if there is an odd gun here or there.
Back on topic, Seh Dang was an heroic and outspoken figure. He had a definite following and he will be missed by many. His death is part of the current problem, not a part of any solution. Whoever thought it was, made a mistake.
A chance for peace?
Having just returned from rally stage in one of the northern provinces, I can confirm that there is strong belief that dawn crackdown is in the offings. Note however that this contradicts this evening’s press conference from Panitan, though we all know how useful his utterances are. I was also advised that there would be serious consequences in the provinces should crackdown unfold, and more particularly if any of the leaders were taken out.
Such potential violence by RS was explained to me in terms of being the only option left for them to have their voice heard in light of the refusal to listen to their electoral voices…
Of interest, it was also suggested that constant rumours of prominent RS / Pheu Thai leaders leaving the country is not, as the Thai media paints it, about escape, but rather an effort to rally international support for the movement, particularly through petitioning international UN channels.
Day 5 – how much longer?
Link from Human right watch website
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/04/30/thailand-end-street-battles-bangkok
A chance for peace?
Jim Taylor – 2
Since I’m in Thailand now so saying anything about the board of director will be a threat for me, anyhow, regarding the matter I think you should take a look what happened in 6 October 1976 for reference. This protest is somewhat similar to that one, but on a much larger scale.