we did watch the reds an government negotiations online through the Internet, it sounded that the reds made sense… anyway just something for you to think about
these people want to be able to vote to choose an MP to represent them in the government
In the period after the abdication in 1932 the Thai military hijacked
and secured their rule.
Since then, the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their
barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any
actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
Without the military, the government, reds with Peu Thai and others will be able to act like normal political rivals and develop democratic
solutions.
The insurgency in the south of Thailand will also subside since it is
fuelled primarily by the same rule by the military (“Bangkok elites”)
that is inspiring the reds only more so because the military in the
south are exercising their violence, sadism and illegal businesses at
levels so far not permitted to them, except in treating certain groups
like refugees and “illegal migrant workers” in the rest of the country.
Fears of the PAD, and even perhaps the reds, disturbing the peace and distorting political outcomes will evaporate when no group is able to call on or be inspired by military support.
Bottling the military is an ongoing challenge for every democracy, for example witness the recent upsurgence of military power in the US, but must be achieved and sustained.
The reds are hoping that a democratically elected Prime Minister will be a hero and achieve this for Thailand?
Do you want to be ruled by the military or would you prefer a government that you can change at each election?
barnsybkk’s comments – among – others on the Tak Bai killings (19) seem to have attracted a significant disapproval rating, yet those asserting recent events as a massacre are doing rather well.
Tak Bai was a massacre, as were the killings at Krue Se mosque.
Words do have a habit of getting in the way of what we want to say. Unfortunately, you can’t always expect people to correctly discrimate between their semantic value or application, and, therefore, understand how to use them correctly.
Perhaps, I’m being a little unfair. I’m sure the hysterical, misguided polemical comments we see on here from time to time have, indeed, been very carefully selected by their authors.
My house is located on Rama 4 Rd., where the bombing and shooting is going on right now as I type…
I’m very surprised to see so many people are against our government even though they are just doing their job. Many people have been waiting for them to take action because it has been causing problems for all the innocent people in the area. You know they are being scolded at by a lot of people just because they don’t take a solid action in getting rid of the protestors?
— Do you know that my relative’s car was pulled over because as citizens drove pass by the Red Zone, they forced all the cars to go in to their area to create a blockage from outside?? This is taking hostages!
— Do you know that many hospitals cannot operate?? Patients cannot go into the hospital? People are dying ???
— Do you know the Red Shirt leaders have nothing to say and want the Red women, senior citizens, and children to remain in the Red Zone? Even though it is very dangerous? They wanted the government to look bad if they take a legal action… And those are what the international media is showing. It is ALWAYS the government’s fault…. but I want to speak for EVERY Thai person that I know that it’s NOT !
— Do you know our soldiers are being sent in first with NO GUNS? and they got hurted and shooted at, they are being beaten up and could not protect themselves from rocks and sharp objects? It’s probably very hard for you understand, unless one of your family members is a soldier…
— Do you know that our former PM Thaksin cheated over 100,000,000 million THB of money from our beloved nation while he was in his term? And THAT money is what he is using to hire all the farmers, and people from the rural area to come and crowd the city, disrupting the peace and flow of our city? — Do you know they are getting 500-2000 THB/day ? That is not a lot of money, but during a hot time like this, no crops are growing, you still need to feed the family, of course you would come and sit around and get paid ! He is making use of our people in the rural provinces! — With that amount of money he can hire ANYONE to stay ANYWHERE for years !
If only you understand Thai and you were here in this country to watch the live debate between the Red Shirt leaders and our government… You will know that they are not making any sense in their argument.
I have never taken sides before, but this is just UNBEARABLE!
One key word in definitions of massacre is “unnecessary”.
Shooting people who relentlessly attack army positions, even with crude weapons, hardly qualifies.
After the first day, after the protesters stopped advancing, casualties have been rising rather slowly – about five per day. Some of these killings could have been unnecessary or indiscriminate but with five deaths per day, at the hands of thousands of troops spread over large, disconnected areas you can’t talk about massacre either.
Take Nick’s case, for example. It would have been a massacre if the soldiers killed everyone hiding at the gas station.
I’m not saying every shot was fully justified either, and some soldiers could have been trigger happy, but that happens when you piss off people with guns. Investigate them, by all means, but also be realistic about capabilities of the legal system.
For now, unlike Tak Bai, there are no specific accusations against any particular soldiers, snipers or units committing any specific crimes.
I’d suggest people should start with questions about “life firing zones” and see if the army can justify that policy from their tactical perspectives. It has been already rescinded, afaik.
“In the 1980s, Veera Musikapong was banned from politics for five years after he said in a campaign speech he would have a happier and easier life as a prince than a politician. Veera was sentenced to six years in jail, but received a royal pardon and served only a few months.”
Yuri, if that Veera is the former labor leader Veera Musikapong he definitely is qualified as an anti-royalist Red shirt leader as he was once a silly victim of that draconian Les-majeste law.
In just about every country on earth, if you are looting and burning occupied buildings (arson/attempted murder) lethal force is used. Many instances during riots in the US the orders to shoot-to-kill looters were given – armed or not, people got shot.
This is not a peaceful protest. It is thugs finally showing their true colors. Ever wonder why they are wearing red in the first place? They are COMMUNISTS. Dr. Weng on stage there is a Maoist trained commie.
This is the saddest most biased garbage I have ever read. “I’ve heard, some have said, many believe” are all WEASEL WORDS. Not the words of journalists. You are not journalists. You are propagandists.
Go to Lumpinee Park, go walk in there and if you are lucky enough not to get one right in the brain pan, you will realize that there is a professional force working on behalf of the UDD killing EVERYONE. And you can ponder as you bleed to death, and they come up to you to double tap you into the next life, why you thought the army was murdering people indiscriminately when ALL journalists including CNN’s Rivers is saying there are heavy gunfights (implying 2 opposing combatants) all over Bangkok.
Can you explain for one second why medics would be targeted by the government? Do you have a picture of this? Do you know it is a military soldier? Could it not be an ex-ranger wearing a military uniform? If there aren’t armed terrorists working for the UDD, why did Natthawut say he would call armed militants off if the government went back to the negotiating table? NYT go read it.
You are all shills in the worst sense. When this rebellion is crushed, I hope you don’t plan on staying in Thailand, because this isn’t going to be like the last time. Everyone involved is going to jail or a shallow grave one way or another, including Thaksin’s PR bloggers.
I think you got it spot on. The way the Reds are referred to as a whole on YouTube and Facebook is similar to the way people refer to “Nips”, “Gooks”, and “Sandniggers” in wars past and present. One has to wonder what has driven people to such levels of hatred usually reserved for foreign enemies.
“The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire”
Nick, excellent and insightful report overall for which I thank you for risking your life to bring to us. I should however tell you that using a gas station as cover in case anybody opens fire is not a great move. Avoid the area of the gas pumps in particular. Stay safe.
No I think he just wouldn’t cut the mustard as a Privy Counsellor.
Funny enough I have long had a suspicion that control of the Privy Council was an issue behind much of what’s gone on since Thaksin became prime minister, because as you know, he who controls the Privy Council controls the succession. Mind you I am not connected enough to know what party wants which party, if you see what I mean.
I read the site daily; several times per day, in fact.
I rarely ever comment.
But today I feel compelled to. The comment rating system adds nothing of value that I can see, and clearly has had the effect of censoring unpopular opinion. It does not seem to be any kind of effective quality control.
Personally, I wouldn’t waste time “tweaking” it. I’d just scrap it.
It’s low effort censorship in an otherwise well-managed forum for ideas and discussion.
– To say that Abhisit was involved in the PAD’s seizure of Govt House and the airports is factually incorrect.
– Thaksin deserves to face trial for human rights abuses. Agreed but, while the red shirts indeed can’t be dismissed purely as his hirelings, there are some very close links between their leaders and him and their plans certainly don’t include bringing him back to face trial for human rights abuses.
– The reasons suggested for the hard core red shirt leaders not wanting the November elections lead to a complete dead end. The same arguments could equally be raised against having elections next month or at the end of next year. Does this mean that they don’t want elections at all because they fear the “royalists” would overturn the result? If so, why don’t they make clear what they really want?
– The whole piece, along with Andrew Walker’s and Nick Farelly’s arguments it quotes is just a piece of reverse engineering starting from the hard core reds’ rejection of the November elections offered by the road map and scrambling to rig up any type of dialectical sophistry to jusify that nihilistic position.
– Thailand’s political evolution and development in the wake of the eventual succession is not going to happen over night but it is already in motion and the influence of the so called “elite” in politics is weakening naturally for obvious reasons. Why not give the November elections a chance without bitterly pre-judging them in advance and see what happens? If things really go as suggested by the author of that piece and Messers Walker and Farelly, the reds will have lived to fight another day and can remobilise (hopefully without their black shirt escuadras de muerte next time). Why risk the lives of so many innocent people whose deaths will cause devastation to many poor families whose plights will of course be essentially ignored by red shirt leaders and Thaksinite politicians?
Thaksin has a lot less blood on his hands than some of the leading members of the Privy Council. He was corrupt, opportunistic and sought to find support for his authoritarianism by giving both the military and the police opportunities to terrorize the population. The police, in particular, seem to have benefited from his government sanctioned murder campaigns. But even if Thaksin was still in power now and thinking about his retirement options it is arguable that he has accumulated enough blood on his hands to be considered as a prospective Privy Counsellor. He doesn’t have a paramilitary powerbase and he isn’t a representative of the traditional establishment that runs Thailand. He’s an outsider with nothing but a popular vote as a powerbase who was allowed to take power because it was felt he might be competent but he could be, and obvious was, removed. He didn’t burn any books, or burn anyone alive in a oil drum, he didn’t even personally order the assassination of his enemies. He was too big a wimp to get the job done the traditional Thai way. No I think he just wouldn’t cut the mustard as a Privy Counsellor.
Like I said before, it an interesting exercise to take a look at the careers of these eminent people.
My birthday passed on this same day, by the way, and I am halfway around the world from the one I love, at this stage in life trying to figure out what life is about…so to speak.
The many things that are being written and said about Thailand only begin to disclose the social ramifications of an ancient system that has long been qualified for removal.
Many of those demonstrating in Bangkok, and getting pissed off up-country, are and have been estranged and they may feel they have a voice in the actions against the government.
Let us see what tomorrow brings.
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Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
hi Natasha
we did watch the reds an government negotiations online through the Internet, it sounded that the reds made sense… anyway just something for you to think about
these people want to be able to vote to choose an MP to represent them in the government
In the period after the abdication in 1932 the Thai military hijacked
and secured their rule.
Since then, the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their
barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any
actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
Without the military, the government, reds with Peu Thai and others will be able to act like normal political rivals and develop democratic
solutions.
The insurgency in the south of Thailand will also subside since it is
fuelled primarily by the same rule by the military (“Bangkok elites”)
that is inspiring the reds only more so because the military in the
south are exercising their violence, sadism and illegal businesses at
levels so far not permitted to them, except in treating certain groups
like refugees and “illegal migrant workers” in the rest of the country.
Fears of the PAD, and even perhaps the reds, disturbing the peace and distorting political outcomes will evaporate when no group is able to call on or be inspired by military support.
Bottling the military is an ongoing challenge for every democracy, for example witness the recent upsurgence of military power in the US, but must be achieved and sustained.
The reds are hoping that a democratically elected Prime Minister will be a hero and achieve this for Thailand?
Do you want to be ruled by the military or would you prefer a government that you can change at each election?
Day 5 – how much longer?
Deus ex machina anybody?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] Nick Nostitz from New Mandala’s intense account of his experience in the ‘live firing zone’ on Din Daeng. […]
Nick Nostitz dans la zone de mise à mort
[…] [UPDATE: a full Thai translation is available here. A French translation is available here.] […]
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
freejosh #104 Nice to meet you, fellow traveler in the New Land.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Just saw this – while we argue about massacres, reds are putting their own children up on the barricades.
http://twitpic.com/1ojv9w
http://twitpic.com/1ojv07
Does the father of this child feels like he is living through a massacre?
Bangkok: This is a massacre
barnsybkk’s comments – among – others on the Tak Bai killings (19) seem to have attracted a significant disapproval rating, yet those asserting recent events as a massacre are doing rather well.
Tak Bai was a massacre, as were the killings at Krue Se mosque.
Words do have a habit of getting in the way of what we want to say. Unfortunately, you can’t always expect people to correctly discrimate between their semantic value or application, and, therefore, understand how to use them correctly.
Perhaps, I’m being a little unfair. I’m sure the hysterical, misguided polemical comments we see on here from time to time have, indeed, been very carefully selected by their authors.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
My house is located on Rama 4 Rd., where the bombing and shooting is going on right now as I type…
I’m very surprised to see so many people are against our government even though they are just doing their job. Many people have been waiting for them to take action because it has been causing problems for all the innocent people in the area. You know they are being scolded at by a lot of people just because they don’t take a solid action in getting rid of the protestors?
— Do you know that my relative’s car was pulled over because as citizens drove pass by the Red Zone, they forced all the cars to go in to their area to create a blockage from outside?? This is taking hostages!
— Do you know that many hospitals cannot operate?? Patients cannot go into the hospital? People are dying ???
— Do you know the Red Shirt leaders have nothing to say and want the Red women, senior citizens, and children to remain in the Red Zone? Even though it is very dangerous? They wanted the government to look bad if they take a legal action… And those are what the international media is showing. It is ALWAYS the government’s fault…. but I want to speak for EVERY Thai person that I know that it’s NOT !
— Do you know our soldiers are being sent in first with NO GUNS? and they got hurted and shooted at, they are being beaten up and could not protect themselves from rocks and sharp objects? It’s probably very hard for you understand, unless one of your family members is a soldier…
— Do you know that our former PM Thaksin cheated over 100,000,000 million THB of money from our beloved nation while he was in his term? And THAT money is what he is using to hire all the farmers, and people from the rural area to come and crowd the city, disrupting the peace and flow of our city? — Do you know they are getting 500-2000 THB/day ? That is not a lot of money, but during a hot time like this, no crops are growing, you still need to feed the family, of course you would come and sit around and get paid ! He is making use of our people in the rural provinces! — With that amount of money he can hire ANYONE to stay ANYWHERE for years !
If only you understand Thai and you were here in this country to watch the live debate between the Red Shirt leaders and our government… You will know that they are not making any sense in their argument.
I have never taken sides before, but this is just UNBEARABLE!
Bangkok: This is a massacre
One key word in definitions of massacre is “unnecessary”.
Shooting people who relentlessly attack army positions, even with crude weapons, hardly qualifies.
After the first day, after the protesters stopped advancing, casualties have been rising rather slowly – about five per day. Some of these killings could have been unnecessary or indiscriminate but with five deaths per day, at the hands of thousands of troops spread over large, disconnected areas you can’t talk about massacre either.
Take Nick’s case, for example. It would have been a massacre if the soldiers killed everyone hiding at the gas station.
I’m not saying every shot was fully justified either, and some soldiers could have been trigger happy, but that happens when you piss off people with guns. Investigate them, by all means, but also be realistic about capabilities of the legal system.
For now, unlike Tak Bai, there are no specific accusations against any particular soldiers, snipers or units committing any specific crimes.
I’d suggest people should start with questions about “life firing zones” and see if the army can justify that policy from their tactical perspectives. It has been already rescinded, afaik.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
“In the 1980s, Veera Musikapong was banned from politics for five years after he said in a campaign speech he would have a happier and easier life as a prince than a politician. Veera was sentenced to six years in jail, but received a royal pardon and served only a few months.”
Yuri, if that Veera is the former labor leader Veera Musikapong he definitely is qualified as an anti-royalist Red shirt leader as he was once a silly victim of that draconian Les-majeste law.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
In just about every country on earth, if you are looting and burning occupied buildings (arson/attempted murder) lethal force is used. Many instances during riots in the US the orders to shoot-to-kill looters were given – armed or not, people got shot.
This is not a peaceful protest. It is thugs finally showing their true colors. Ever wonder why they are wearing red in the first place? They are COMMUNISTS. Dr. Weng on stage there is a Maoist trained commie.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
This is the saddest most biased garbage I have ever read. “I’ve heard, some have said, many believe” are all WEASEL WORDS. Not the words of journalists. You are not journalists. You are propagandists.
Go to Lumpinee Park, go walk in there and if you are lucky enough not to get one right in the brain pan, you will realize that there is a professional force working on behalf of the UDD killing EVERYONE. And you can ponder as you bleed to death, and they come up to you to double tap you into the next life, why you thought the army was murdering people indiscriminately when ALL journalists including CNN’s Rivers is saying there are heavy gunfights (implying 2 opposing combatants) all over Bangkok.
Can you explain for one second why medics would be targeted by the government? Do you have a picture of this? Do you know it is a military soldier? Could it not be an ex-ranger wearing a military uniform? If there aren’t armed terrorists working for the UDD, why did Natthawut say he would call armed militants off if the government went back to the negotiating table? NYT go read it.
You are all shills in the worst sense. When this rebellion is crushed, I hope you don’t plan on staying in Thailand, because this isn’t going to be like the last time. Everyone involved is going to jail or a shallow grave one way or another, including Thaksin’s PR bloggers.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Mr. V
I think you got it spot on. The way the Reds are referred to as a whole on YouTube and Facebook is similar to the way people refer to “Nips”, “Gooks”, and “Sandniggers” in wars past and present. One has to wonder what has driven people to such levels of hatred usually reserved for foreign enemies.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
“The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire”
Nick, excellent and insightful report overall for which I thank you for risking your life to bring to us. I should however tell you that using a gas station as cover in case anybody opens fire is not a great move. Avoid the area of the gas pumps in particular. Stay safe.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Jaded – 14
No I think he just wouldn’t cut the mustard as a Privy Counsellor.
Funny enough I have long had a suspicion that control of the Privy Council was an issue behind much of what’s gone on since Thaksin became prime minister, because as you know, he who controls the Privy Council controls the succession. Mind you I am not connected enough to know what party wants which party, if you see what I mean.
Rating comments
I read the site daily; several times per day, in fact.
I rarely ever comment.
But today I feel compelled to. The comment rating system adds nothing of value that I can see, and clearly has had the effect of censoring unpopular opinion. It does not seem to be any kind of effective quality control.
Personally, I wouldn’t waste time “tweaking” it. I’d just scrap it.
It’s low effort censorship in an otherwise well-managed forum for ideas and discussion.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
– To say that Abhisit was involved in the PAD’s seizure of Govt House and the airports is factually incorrect.
– Thaksin deserves to face trial for human rights abuses. Agreed but, while the red shirts indeed can’t be dismissed purely as his hirelings, there are some very close links between their leaders and him and their plans certainly don’t include bringing him back to face trial for human rights abuses.
– The reasons suggested for the hard core red shirt leaders not wanting the November elections lead to a complete dead end. The same arguments could equally be raised against having elections next month or at the end of next year. Does this mean that they don’t want elections at all because they fear the “royalists” would overturn the result? If so, why don’t they make clear what they really want?
– The whole piece, along with Andrew Walker’s and Nick Farelly’s arguments it quotes is just a piece of reverse engineering starting from the hard core reds’ rejection of the November elections offered by the road map and scrambling to rig up any type of dialectical sophistry to jusify that nihilistic position.
– Thailand’s political evolution and development in the wake of the eventual succession is not going to happen over night but it is already in motion and the influence of the so called “elite” in politics is weakening naturally for obvious reasons. Why not give the November elections a chance without bitterly pre-judging them in advance and see what happens? If things really go as suggested by the author of that piece and Messers Walker and Farelly, the reds will have lived to fight another day and can remobilise (hopefully without their black shirt escuadras de muerte next time). Why risk the lives of so many innocent people whose deaths will cause devastation to many poor families whose plights will of course be essentially ignored by red shirt leaders and Thaksinite politicians?
– Finally. What would Mahatma Ghandi have done?
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Thaksin has a lot less blood on his hands than some of the leading members of the Privy Council. He was corrupt, opportunistic and sought to find support for his authoritarianism by giving both the military and the police opportunities to terrorize the population. The police, in particular, seem to have benefited from his government sanctioned murder campaigns. But even if Thaksin was still in power now and thinking about his retirement options it is arguable that he has accumulated enough blood on his hands to be considered as a prospective Privy Counsellor. He doesn’t have a paramilitary powerbase and he isn’t a representative of the traditional establishment that runs Thailand. He’s an outsider with nothing but a popular vote as a powerbase who was allowed to take power because it was felt he might be competent but he could be, and obvious was, removed. He didn’t burn any books, or burn anyone alive in a oil drum, he didn’t even personally order the assassination of his enemies. He was too big a wimp to get the job done the traditional Thai way. No I think he just wouldn’t cut the mustard as a Privy Counsellor.
Like I said before, it an interesting exercise to take a look at the careers of these eminent people.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
My birthday passed on this same day, by the way, and I am halfway around the world from the one I love, at this stage in life trying to figure out what life is about…so to speak.
The many things that are being written and said about Thailand only begin to disclose the social ramifications of an ancient system that has long been qualified for removal.
Many of those demonstrating in Bangkok, and getting pissed off up-country, are and have been estranged and they may feel they have a voice in the actions against the government.
Let us see what tomorrow brings.
Rating comments
So, in the interim I have set the threshold very high – 500 more thumbs down than thumbs up.
Thank you Andrew, that covers my immediate concern. I think 1000 maybe a better number though after looking at the reaction to my comments 😉