Hana’s comments reflect real issues in Thailand. The term “brainwashing” as he used is clearly still in place. What worries me the most is that most “educated” people, old or young, still think poor “country people” hold no ability to think for themselves. Big gap, double standard, are still there. Thailand is a society of fear, fear of not being wealthy otherwise no one will respect them. So they have to act wealthy, loan big sums of money to buy unnecessary bigger house, bigger car, shinier shoes, hanging out at hippier club, etc. The consequence is Thailand gets a whole lot of selfish people who are too busy trying to decorate themselves for superficial result–socalled respect from others. No need to be concerned of what is going on around them as long as they’re not affected directly (they don’t mind if they’re affected indirectly as long as they go about their lives without a problem, for example, pretend to love the winner, whoever it is, as long as they won’t be hunted and hanged when it’s all done). So you see, this society is full of liars and selfish lots.
A carefully crafted but disingenious smoke screen.
You labour to balance your commentary, but you purposely fail to mention the hundreds of people who disappeared in previous massacres in Thailand. Recall the Red Gaurs, bodies in barrels and the rest of the sickening , ”…killing (of) a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.”
If you wish to number crunch to make your point, at least use those figures to enhance your argument, rather than selectively use those past events to bench mark what is happening now.
Some red shirts do have weapons and are using them.
My view? An unholy mess, as usual in Thailand, and one that does not bear any neat buttonholing or convenient definition.
The government have just announced a deadline for the protesters to leave Ratchaprasong by 3pm. Get your clicker ready.
Twisting words is not a good way to make an argument. A massacre is a mass killing that takes place at one time. No matter how you try to massage the word to fit this situation, it is the wrong word.
All the red shirts have to do to avoid getting shot at is to go home. I live a few 100 metres from the Dusit Thani Hotel, and I would hardly call firing 3 rpgs at it as an action by ‘unarmed protesters. This is an action by a bunch of violent thugs and as far as I am concerned the sooner the army kills every single one of them the better.
and sadly we see the failure of civil society in Thailand aligned with DP-amaat-military to be effective or to remain impartial. Such leaders need to be named: Take the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (NHRC) a clear mouthpiece for the government given its control by the amaat and fervent anti-Thaksinites. As Ji has noted, Dr Tajing Siripanit, a commissioner from the NHRC, stated on NBT television on 4th April 2010 that the military-backed government “would be justified in using force” against the peaceful pro-democracy Red Shirt protestors “because they were disrupting shopping” in the centre of Bangkok . Sad to say an anthropologist and former colleague Amara Pongsapich, NHRC Chairperson and establishment elite, even encouraged people in Bangkok to sue the Red Shirts for disruption and violation of their [shopping?] rights (no mention of the unarmed Reds’ rights to demonstrate against a dictatorial state, or of the violence caused to so many well armed thugs among Yellow Shirts supported by the military since 2006) . It is clear that civil society has failed to remain impartial in Thailand or to be trusted to resolve the crisis.
I’m a Thai women who don’t like Taksin.
I’m very sorry that you saw.
I write and speak English weakly but I really want to tell you that
“The soldier must do that, Red-Shirt gang make many big problems for my country and this event they don’t show what they are so the government notices Dangerous Zone for safety people ,and who is still in that area….is not safe. Red-Shirt gang plays games with the government for making the government badly in man.”
A little off-topic, but I don’t like the “rating system”. The comment by meander69 above doesn’t start well but besides the first sentence, this is not a low-quality comment IMO, it just disagrees with the opinion of most posters here. I know this rating system from alternet.org and found it dramatically increased “forum bias”, with certain posters getting voted down to the effect that they were discouraged to comment ever again. Just my 2 satang.
The problem is Anonymous that no matter how you spin it, the UDD is not a non-violent movement. You know this and you also know that their leadership has been trying to provoke just such an outcome for almost two months. It just becomes propaganda when you post stuff like this.
This article can only be credited as a single view and interpretation of a foreign photographer whom, due to his lack of experience in hostile areas and his shallow understanding of local rhythm and expected behavior along with his limited grasp on the whole situation, was led to conclude and displayed himself and other as being fatally threatened without any rules or reasons. No attempts were made to wholly understand what he had encounter and ethically give important insights to the wider context and significance of his whereabouts and how the situation had progress at that particular time. This is not a news article and cannot be considered as professional news reporting, but rather an emotional blog of someone scared for his life.
The government voted for a military solution to what is a political problem. Armies are trained to seek victory. To kill the enemy. That is their purpose. That’s why they must always be under civilian control. Armies are murdering machines.
Elected politicians seek compromise. That is the nature of democracy. In a democracy, politicians understand and largely accept that absolute victory over their rivals is impossible. Even when they have a majority, they seek accommodation. Because majorities are fragile and can’t be counted on as lasting forever. Compromise and accommodation is the norm.
When a government decides that collateral damage to its citizens is more acceptable than elections, that government has removed itself from any rational discussion of democracy. Such a government stands along side dictatorships where the distinction between civilian and military governments vanishes. They are the same.
It is difficult to see how the Democrat Party can ever achieve electoral success when it has proved itself, in times of great crisis, to dishonour democracy, and unleash the dogs of war to repress and murder its citizens.
In the days and weeks ahead the government and its military spokesman will seek to blame others. To cast the responsibility as having served Nation, Religion and Monarch rings hallow. That tired old rhetoric no longer brings people to their knees. The old order hasn’t died; but the shield of democracy covering them like a fig leaf died in 13-17 May 2010. Funeral pending.
Simon – ”A clear lesson from the established democracies of the West is that no Government can sustain its popularity indefinitely.”
I think a valid point and why it also highlights our failed interpretation and misunderstanding of democracy as applied to Thailand.
We are coming to the table with our preconceived notions of fairness and fairplay, based squarely on our knowledge and experience of accountable democracy in the UK, US and other western countries.
These notions or, indeed, principles do not apply here and never have, no matter how many people want you to believe that.
Local patron client relationships, nak leng and amart networks of convenience, all nicely and neatly topped out by the military and their boss.
It doenst matter which side you are on right now.What is being damaged here is humanity.
You were near a gas station.How do you think the residents living behind there would have survived if it had been torched? Right now both sides are taking very very hardline measures and it is causing more anger,more fear and more pain.
The Thai people have lost their way and unfortunately the way you have reported this ,in your own fear based manner, adds to that.There is not any unbiased reporting going on because those ‘doing their job’ are so scared it colours the way they report it. (pun intended)
It is time for people to go home and to free Bangkok again. It is not worth dying for when in this 21st century there are very clear avenues that can be used.
Yes it takes time but if people are educated and shown how it can work and will work then society can still function.
There are many many more casualties than those who have faced the gun fire.
Many many innocent Thai people have been damaged just for living in this city and having been subject to the tactics that have been used in the last two months. How many cannot work,feed their families or live safely because of all this? A lot more than the few who are causing all the violence.
I call upon all in this our Human race, species Homo sapien, to show some compassion and humanity for all.Truth will prevail no matter what comes and many may not like what it shows.
Thank you
Nok, I believe none have said the reds are unarmed. What we all trying to say here, from those pics on the news, is the unarmed (reds/civilians) are killed. The main point is no one deserve to be judged to dead. (or at least before he/she is brought to the court)
I’m still trying to find a pic of the red equipped with heavy weapons died with gun or M79 in hand. From what I have seen, those who were shot had nothing more than sling-shot. And if the sling-shot is too dangerous to the soldier (that they have to defense themselves by shooting ppl), then I would be happy in a way that we don’t have to spend a lot of money on expensive weapons anymore. No need for buying more machine guns, just give out the sling-shot, which is very cheap to make, to those soldiers in the South, and those who are on the borderland just in case.
Anyway, I hope not to see any more killing.
If you happen to find a pic like this, pls. don’t hesitate to show us.
One element that puzzles me is the enthusiasm in the yellow/democrat/elite side for creating martyrs.
A clear lesson from the established democracies of the West is that no Government can sustain its popularity indefinitely.
Surely if Thaksin had been left in power for a few more years his popularity would have waned and his rural support base would probably have rejected them himself.
Similarly regarding Seh Daeng. From what I’ve read it seems that even the red shirts themselves were quite divided over his hardline, inflammatory approach. Taking him out has simply strengthed the hand of the hardliners.
I know this is all somewhat beside the point, past events that can’t be changed, but is there any hope that when the next big decision is made the Government might think through the long term consequences of thier actions.
To say “Thailand’s fatal flaw is it’s lost of faith in the electoral process” is assuming too much. How do you know? I bet a polling of a cross section of Thai society would show that most Thai still think elections will bring about outcomes that are reflective of the will of the people. Unless you’re a Red shirt or their sympathizer, of course. If all your interactions are with Red Shirts then sure, all you’ll see is despair and distrust of the system. You get a rather myopic view of of the Thai body politic if all you read are blogs like these. But the Reds are not all of Thailand. I would even venture to say that the majority of Thais would not consider themselves Red Shirts at all.
Your argument that there’s a lost of faith in the system seems to be motivated by a desire to provide cover, to apologize, for the Reds not accepting the road map. You ask, “Could they [the Red Shirts] rely on the palace to add its moral authority to a defence of the electoral process?” It’s a false and disingenuous question with the only possible answer being no. A more positive question would have been, Can the Red Shirts hold the government’s foot to the fire and ensure the integrity of the electoral process? Here you have an honest question where you can argue either way. I don’t buy your apologist argument. It doesn’t help the movement either because it weakens the Red Shirt’s claim to any moral authority, if they have any after the last few days.
The difficulty in negotiating with UDD is that every concession is met with a fresh demand, it never ends. The roadmap basically failed when the UDD leaders started trying to ice the cake with bail/amnesty conditions for their actions.
Living in the area of Rama IV I have to say the army is suddenly showing a determination that had been completely absent over the last couple of months. This came as something of a a shock to everyone, and appears to be causing the UDD leadership considerable distress. The real test of their resolve will come when they try to break up the red camp.
It saddens me to see so many stereotypical and paranoid rants in the comments above. The Thai government and army of old has a bad reputation but it is now showing remarkable restraint considering the soldiers are being shot at and hit with M79 grenades. Things change people, stop living in the past.
But it’s just easier and more fun to believe they’re all jackbooted thugs, isn’t it?
BTW, Thomas Fuller, the NYT/IHT journalist who was interviewing Seh Daeng at the time of his shooting, also goes way back with the PAD honcho Sondhi. He got his big break with the Manager Group.
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Video of Thailand on the Verge
Hana’s comments reflect real issues in Thailand. The term “brainwashing” as he used is clearly still in place. What worries me the most is that most “educated” people, old or young, still think poor “country people” hold no ability to think for themselves. Big gap, double standard, are still there. Thailand is a society of fear, fear of not being wealthy otherwise no one will respect them. So they have to act wealthy, loan big sums of money to buy unnecessary bigger house, bigger car, shinier shoes, hanging out at hippier club, etc. The consequence is Thailand gets a whole lot of selfish people who are too busy trying to decorate themselves for superficial result–socalled respect from others. No need to be concerned of what is going on around them as long as they’re not affected directly (they don’t mind if they’re affected indirectly as long as they go about their lives without a problem, for example, pretend to love the winner, whoever it is, as long as they won’t be hunted and hanged when it’s all done). So you see, this society is full of liars and selfish lots.
I am Thai, BTW.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Actually, they are a non-violent movement. That’s what they say and that is what they practice.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
A carefully crafted but disingenious smoke screen.
You labour to balance your commentary, but you purposely fail to mention the hundreds of people who disappeared in previous massacres in Thailand. Recall the Red Gaurs, bodies in barrels and the rest of the sickening , ”…killing (of) a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.”
If you wish to number crunch to make your point, at least use those figures to enhance your argument, rather than selectively use those past events to bench mark what is happening now.
Some red shirts do have weapons and are using them.
My view? An unholy mess, as usual in Thailand, and one that does not bear any neat buttonholing or convenient definition.
The government have just announced a deadline for the protesters to leave Ratchaprasong by 3pm. Get your clicker ready.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Twisting words is not a good way to make an argument. A massacre is a mass killing that takes place at one time. No matter how you try to massage the word to fit this situation, it is the wrong word.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
All the red shirts have to do to avoid getting shot at is to go home. I live a few 100 metres from the Dusit Thani Hotel, and I would hardly call firing 3 rpgs at it as an action by ‘unarmed protesters. This is an action by a bunch of violent thugs and as far as I am concerned the sooner the army kills every single one of them the better.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
and sadly we see the failure of civil society in Thailand aligned with DP-amaat-military to be effective or to remain impartial. Such leaders need to be named: Take the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (NHRC) a clear mouthpiece for the government given its control by the amaat and fervent anti-Thaksinites. As Ji has noted, Dr Tajing Siripanit, a commissioner from the NHRC, stated on NBT television on 4th April 2010 that the military-backed government “would be justified in using force” against the peaceful pro-democracy Red Shirt protestors “because they were disrupting shopping” in the centre of Bangkok . Sad to say an anthropologist and former colleague Amara Pongsapich, NHRC Chairperson and establishment elite, even encouraged people in Bangkok to sue the Red Shirts for disruption and violation of their [shopping?] rights (no mention of the unarmed Reds’ rights to demonstrate against a dictatorial state, or of the violence caused to so many well armed thugs among Yellow Shirts supported by the military since 2006) . It is clear that civil society has failed to remain impartial in Thailand or to be trusted to resolve the crisis.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I’m a Thai women who don’t like Taksin.
I’m very sorry that you saw.
I write and speak English weakly but I really want to tell you that
“The soldier must do that, Red-Shirt gang make many big problems for my country and this event they don’t show what they are so the government notices Dangerous Zone for safety people ,and who is still in that area….is not safe. Red-Shirt gang plays games with the government for making the government badly in man.”
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
A little off-topic, but I don’t like the “rating system”. The comment by meander69 above doesn’t start well but besides the first sentence, this is not a low-quality comment IMO, it just disagrees with the opinion of most posters here. I know this rating system from alternet.org and found it dramatically increased “forum bias”, with certain posters getting voted down to the effect that they were discouraged to comment ever again. Just my 2 satang.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
The problem is Anonymous that no matter how you spin it, the UDD is not a non-violent movement. You know this and you also know that their leadership has been trying to provoke just such an outcome for almost two months. It just becomes propaganda when you post stuff like this.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
This article can only be credited as a single view and interpretation of a foreign photographer whom, due to his lack of experience in hostile areas and his shallow understanding of local rhythm and expected behavior along with his limited grasp on the whole situation, was led to conclude and displayed himself and other as being fatally threatened without any rules or reasons. No attempts were made to wholly understand what he had encounter and ethically give important insights to the wider context and significance of his whereabouts and how the situation had progress at that particular time. This is not a news article and cannot be considered as professional news reporting, but rather an emotional blog of someone scared for his life.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
The government voted for a military solution to what is a political problem. Armies are trained to seek victory. To kill the enemy. That is their purpose. That’s why they must always be under civilian control. Armies are murdering machines.
Elected politicians seek compromise. That is the nature of democracy. In a democracy, politicians understand and largely accept that absolute victory over their rivals is impossible. Even when they have a majority, they seek accommodation. Because majorities are fragile and can’t be counted on as lasting forever. Compromise and accommodation is the norm.
When a government decides that collateral damage to its citizens is more acceptable than elections, that government has removed itself from any rational discussion of democracy. Such a government stands along side dictatorships where the distinction between civilian and military governments vanishes. They are the same.
It is difficult to see how the Democrat Party can ever achieve electoral success when it has proved itself, in times of great crisis, to dishonour democracy, and unleash the dogs of war to repress and murder its citizens.
In the days and weeks ahead the government and its military spokesman will seek to blame others. To cast the responsibility as having served Nation, Religion and Monarch rings hallow. That tired old rhetoric no longer brings people to their knees. The old order hasn’t died; but the shield of democracy covering them like a fig leaf died in 13-17 May 2010. Funeral pending.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
Simon – ”A clear lesson from the established democracies of the West is that no Government can sustain its popularity indefinitely.”
I think a valid point and why it also highlights our failed interpretation and misunderstanding of democracy as applied to Thailand.
We are coming to the table with our preconceived notions of fairness and fairplay, based squarely on our knowledge and experience of accountable democracy in the UK, US and other western countries.
These notions or, indeed, principles do not apply here and never have, no matter how many people want you to believe that.
Local patron client relationships, nak leng and amart networks of convenience, all nicely and neatly topped out by the military and their boss.
That’s all.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] If you want to know what it feels like to be caught up in a (rather one-sided) firefight, read this. […]
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
It doenst matter which side you are on right now.What is being damaged here is humanity.
You were near a gas station.How do you think the residents living behind there would have survived if it had been torched? Right now both sides are taking very very hardline measures and it is causing more anger,more fear and more pain.
The Thai people have lost their way and unfortunately the way you have reported this ,in your own fear based manner, adds to that.There is not any unbiased reporting going on because those ‘doing their job’ are so scared it colours the way they report it. (pun intended)
It is time for people to go home and to free Bangkok again. It is not worth dying for when in this 21st century there are very clear avenues that can be used.
Yes it takes time but if people are educated and shown how it can work and will work then society can still function.
There are many many more casualties than those who have faced the gun fire.
Many many innocent Thai people have been damaged just for living in this city and having been subject to the tactics that have been used in the last two months. How many cannot work,feed their families or live safely because of all this? A lot more than the few who are causing all the violence.
I call upon all in this our Human race, species Homo sapien, to show some compassion and humanity for all.Truth will prevail no matter what comes and many may not like what it shows.
Thank you
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Nok, I believe none have said the reds are unarmed. What we all trying to say here, from those pics on the news, is the unarmed (reds/civilians) are killed. The main point is no one deserve to be judged to dead. (or at least before he/she is brought to the court)
I’m still trying to find a pic of the red equipped with heavy weapons died with gun or M79 in hand. From what I have seen, those who were shot had nothing more than sling-shot. And if the sling-shot is too dangerous to the soldier (that they have to defense themselves by shooting ppl), then I would be happy in a way that we don’t have to spend a lot of money on expensive weapons anymore. No need for buying more machine guns, just give out the sling-shot, which is very cheap to make, to those soldiers in the South, and those who are on the borderland just in case.
Anyway, I hope not to see any more killing.
If you happen to find a pic like this, pls. don’t hesitate to show us.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
One element that puzzles me is the enthusiasm in the yellow/democrat/elite side for creating martyrs.
A clear lesson from the established democracies of the West is that no Government can sustain its popularity indefinitely.
Surely if Thaksin had been left in power for a few more years his popularity would have waned and his rural support base would probably have rejected them himself.
Similarly regarding Seh Daeng. From what I’ve read it seems that even the red shirts themselves were quite divided over his hardline, inflammatory approach. Taking him out has simply strengthed the hand of the hardliners.
I know this is all somewhat beside the point, past events that can’t be changed, but is there any hope that when the next big decision is made the Government might think through the long term consequences of thier actions.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
To say “Thailand’s fatal flaw is it’s lost of faith in the electoral process” is assuming too much. How do you know? I bet a polling of a cross section of Thai society would show that most Thai still think elections will bring about outcomes that are reflective of the will of the people. Unless you’re a Red shirt or their sympathizer, of course. If all your interactions are with Red Shirts then sure, all you’ll see is despair and distrust of the system. You get a rather myopic view of of the Thai body politic if all you read are blogs like these. But the Reds are not all of Thailand. I would even venture to say that the majority of Thais would not consider themselves Red Shirts at all.
Your argument that there’s a lost of faith in the system seems to be motivated by a desire to provide cover, to apologize, for the Reds not accepting the road map. You ask, “Could they [the Red Shirts] rely on the palace to add its moral authority to a defence of the electoral process?” It’s a false and disingenuous question with the only possible answer being no. A more positive question would have been, Can the Red Shirts hold the government’s foot to the fire and ensure the integrity of the electoral process? Here you have an honest question where you can argue either way. I don’t buy your apologist argument. It doesn’t help the movement either because it weakens the Red Shirt’s claim to any moral authority, if they have any after the last few days.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
Jim Taylor:
I don’t know anything about hotel kamma; it is a new category for me. But what goes around and comes around is clear: bullets.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
The difficulty in negotiating with UDD is that every concession is met with a fresh demand, it never ends. The roadmap basically failed when the UDD leaders started trying to ice the cake with bail/amnesty conditions for their actions.
Living in the area of Rama IV I have to say the army is suddenly showing a determination that had been completely absent over the last couple of months. This came as something of a a shock to everyone, and appears to be causing the UDD leadership considerable distress. The real test of their resolve will come when they try to break up the red camp.
It saddens me to see so many stereotypical and paranoid rants in the comments above. The Thai government and army of old has a bad reputation but it is now showing remarkable restraint considering the soldiers are being shot at and hit with M79 grenades. Things change people, stop living in the past.
But it’s just easier and more fun to believe they’re all jackbooted thugs, isn’t it?
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
BTW, Thomas Fuller, the NYT/IHT journalist who was interviewing Seh Daeng at the time of his shooting, also goes way back with the PAD honcho Sondhi. He got his big break with the Manager Group.
Sondhi sure knows how to ‘spot’ talent!