Strange to say, at first glance there’s not so much of the usual cant and bias for which New Mandala has a well-deserved reputation.
So let’s get serious: Does anyone really believe that the final body-count will come close to the widely accepted 2,000 or so that Thaksin set as the quota during his “war on drugs”? I’d hazard a guess that it will be less than 10% of that.
As to the theory espoused above that Thailand has lost it’s faith in “electoral democracy”, if so then the record shows that this process became powerfully virulent under Thaksin’s anti-democratic and anti-intellectual regime and his trampling of the check and balance mechanisms it enshrined – or to put it in more colloquial terms:
I’ve been a long time reader of this blog and have found its articles and comments informative and illuminating.
Stepping back a little, does anyone think the reds badly miscalculated their options here?
After Abhisit offered new elections, the ostensible justification for the ongoing protests was removed. Maybe the reds didnt expect this, at least at this point, and because of that we saw a fracturing between the moderate (those who will work within the existing political process) and the hard liners (those intent on bringing down the current powers in the military and monarchy).
The hard liners split away and in doing so are provoking the state into responding with overwhelming force. All the while, they’re only strengthening where the real power lies (the military) and the institutions used to legitimate it (monarchy, superficial “thin” democracy and institutions of the state).
They’re also highlighting the weakness of their movement and its inevitable defeat. We haven’t seen any mass uprising, especially in the north and north-east so we aren’t approaching an all out civil war (as some claim).
I do think that the reds represent genuine grievances of a significant percentage of the population. At the same time, from my experience and perception anyway, thai people distrust just about everyone involved in the political process and aren’t about to throw themselves in front of the military.
Andrew, Thailand’s fatal flaw is the lack of the concept in Thai culture for rules. Without such rules democracy is impossible.
I’m actually starting to think that perhaps Thailand would be better off simply having a very strong monarch along with a military dictator like it’s always been before. If no one follows rules it’s hopeless…
This is Ji’s usual rhetoric, filled with the most crude, blunt lack-of- analysis.
Still, one can share his outrage about the blood being spilt.
And yes – it’s dark humour indeed, Thailand being appointed to the UN Human Rights Commission – but then so have many others states with appalling human rights records, some of them even “socialist” ones Ji no doubt admires.
One issue I’d like to raise is this :
what is happening within Thai jails, as this break-down of law and order proceeds ?
News must be filtering in that the country is now right on the brink of all out civil war.
This could be an opportunity for an all-out break-out by Thai prisoners.
Da Torpedo, your day of freedom, liberation and VICTORY may be getting close.
Les, Giles had to abandon his home and job in Thailand because he put his name to his opinions. More courage than many.
Ha Andrew, more courage than some, but maybe less than others. Some stayed and went to prison for the wrote or said didn’t they? How many kids that Giles has converted to his brand of Trotskyism will still have their lives after this mess is all over? Very seldom is it the teachers and leaders who get punished Andrew. I do believe that Giles never got as far the court did he? Courage can be a funny thing sometimes as I just don’t see it where I obviously should.
Troops being “ordered to target lower parts of the body”? The people the troops are shooting at through the iron bars of the park fence in the BBC footage at this link must be really, really tall. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8682051.stm
So guys after this is all over, just sometimes look at your hands and see if you can see the blood. Unfortunately I suspect you will not see it and you will sleep well.
Obviously a comment not appreciated by the academic community as it’s just been voted off the page. Ah well if they don’t want to hear so be it. Just remind me though, how many expat university professors have been among the killed so far? OK any Thai professors? None, I wonder why that is? Aren’t they the ones that have been calling for this? A bunch of motorbike kids have just been given 6 month jail sentences. Not any university professors in that bunch either. Nothing like walking the walk is there?
As the army put the sign of “Live firing zone” near Din Daeng intersection, reports said soldier shoot any one entering the area.
The Nation photographer was shot at leg.
Some says even a pregnant woman also got shot.
Seems like the army use full force to crack down the protesters. Thairath newspaper reports the poll, Dusit Poll, claims people 51% agree with government to use force against the UDD.
The National Affair Inspector agrees with government to use force against protesters saying even in the U.S. , law is fully enforced.
Reports said the protesters captured 2 soldiers near Bon Kai intersection, those two, can’t speak Thai, they’re from Cambodia and hired by Newin. (to be confirmed).
Andrew (9) – you left out the most startling part of Lt-Gen Dapong’s statement:
“Troops have been armed with only M16 rifles and SK rifles, not war weapons…….They do not have heavy weapons like M79 grenades or RPG”
Many will be surprised to hear that semi-automatic rifles are not “war weapons” – but I guess we should be grateful that they’ve decided (for now) to leave the anti-aircraft guns, the mortars and other artillery pieces back at base.
As to troops being “ordered to target lower parts of the body” – perhaps that’s in response to the “bad press” they’re getting for the staggering number of head-shot casualties that have been inflicted? Of course, doing all they can to keep the media out of the conflict zones entirely also helps to avoid embarrassing reports going round the world within hours.
So Giles is coming back to take his place in the fight is he? Isn’t he? Come on Giles there’s some of your followers getting hurt here. Surely you are not going stay in comfortable London while this is going on are you? Not like Thaksin’s wife and kids and stay safe surely.
On the whole, I’m against the rating system as being trialled here. It does lend itself too easily to becoming just an agree/disagree vote – or even just like/dislike the poster. The simple “recommend” (or not) vote system is slightly less bad, but I still don’t see it as a plus.
It was predictable that certain posts would get voted down – and, following introduction of the trial, at least one serial and ubiquitous contributor seems to have gone out of his way to post comments that are even more ridiculous than his usual guff. My own view is that simply ignoring them is the best route – akin to the maxim of “don’t feed the trolls” and for much the same reasons.
Lt-Gen Dapong said troops have been ordered to target lower parts of the body or to fire live rounds into the air if they are engaged in violent fights with protesters.
Unconfirmed reports indicate that Abhisit’s soldiers have shot dead at least 50 people do far. Hundreds are injured. They say there are 500 “terrorists” in the protest site. Earlier they said that they would use snipers to shoot “terrorists”.
The only terrorists are in the Government, the Army and the Palace.
The tyrants say that the Red Shirts are all determined to overthrow the Monarchy and therefore it is justifiable to kill them. So having a Monarchy is an excuse to kill anyone who fights for Democracy and Social Justice.
Various Government spokespeople, including Abhisit’s academic-for-hire Panitan Wattanayagorn and Censorship Boss Satit Wongnongtuay, continue to lie and lie again, claiming that troops only fire in self defence. Yet all press reports show indiscriminate shooting of unarmed civilians including a 10 year old boy, a paramedic and foreign news reporters.
Fake human rights groups call on “both sides” to stop the violence. Yet it is only one side which is using lethal violence against unarmed pro-democracy demonstrators. Even Reporters Without Boarders demands that “both sides” guarantee the safety of reporters. How can Red Shirts guarantee anyone’s safety when they are being murdered in cold blood.
Many so-called news reports write that troops fire on rioters. No one is rioting except the army. Others talk about “protests turning violent”. It is not the protesters who are violent.
Unarmed pro-democracy protesters are being systematically murdered in order to keep Abhisit and his military backed government in power. The King is silent as usual. His only job, apart from counting his wealth, is to legitimise every bloody act that the army commits. Yet so-called analysts write that he has “held the country together”. The fact is he has supported every crack down on Democracy. He is weak and spineless. That is why millions of Red Shirts are becoming Republicans.
The UN has just selected Thailand to be on the Human Rights Committee. What a joke! But what can one expect from a body controlled by war mongers.
Red Shirts throughout the country are standing firm in the bloody fight for Democracy, Social Justice and Human dignity. I salute them!
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Thailand’s sideshow is over
P.S. i.e. Enshrined in the1997 “Peoples Constitution”
Thailand’s sideshow is over
Strange to say, at first glance there’s not so much of the usual cant and bias for which New Mandala has a well-deserved reputation.
So let’s get serious: Does anyone really believe that the final body-count will come close to the widely accepted 2,000 or so that Thaksin set as the quota during his “war on drugs”? I’d hazard a guess that it will be less than 10% of that.
As to the theory espoused above that Thailand has lost it’s faith in “electoral democracy”, if so then the record shows that this process became powerfully virulent under Thaksin’s anti-democratic and anti-intellectual regime and his trampling of the check and balance mechanisms it enshrined – or to put it in more colloquial terms:
Thaksin Zig-Zag # One
Bangkok at war
I’ve been a long time reader of this blog and have found its articles and comments informative and illuminating.
Stepping back a little, does anyone think the reds badly miscalculated their options here?
After Abhisit offered new elections, the ostensible justification for the ongoing protests was removed. Maybe the reds didnt expect this, at least at this point, and because of that we saw a fracturing between the moderate (those who will work within the existing political process) and the hard liners (those intent on bringing down the current powers in the military and monarchy).
The hard liners split away and in doing so are provoking the state into responding with overwhelming force. All the while, they’re only strengthening where the real power lies (the military) and the institutions used to legitimate it (monarchy, superficial “thin” democracy and institutions of the state).
They’re also highlighting the weakness of their movement and its inevitable defeat. We haven’t seen any mass uprising, especially in the north and north-east so we aren’t approaching an all out civil war (as some claim).
I do think that the reds represent genuine grievances of a significant percentage of the population. At the same time, from my experience and perception anyway, thai people distrust just about everyone involved in the political process and aren’t about to throw themselves in front of the military.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Andrew, Thailand’s fatal flaw is the lack of the concept in Thai culture for rules. Without such rules democracy is impossible.
I’m actually starting to think that perhaps Thailand would be better off simply having a very strong monarch along with a military dictator like it’s always been before. If no one follows rules it’s hopeless…
Rating comments
IMAO, Srithanonchai got a point. It’s hard to measure Quality vs Agreement.
Also with comment rating, commentator shouldn’t take it personal. Even the best comment would get flame for no apparent reason.
Bangkok at war
This is Ji’s usual rhetoric, filled with the most crude, blunt lack-of- analysis.
Still, one can share his outrage about the blood being spilt.
And yes – it’s dark humour indeed, Thailand being appointed to the UN Human Rights Commission – but then so have many others states with appalling human rights records, some of them even “socialist” ones Ji no doubt admires.
One issue I’d like to raise is this :
what is happening within Thai jails, as this break-down of law and order proceeds ?
News must be filtering in that the country is now right on the brink of all out civil war.
This could be an opportunity for an all-out break-out by Thai prisoners.
Da Torpedo, your day of freedom, liberation and VICTORY may be getting close.
Bangkok at war
Andrew Walker – 11
Les, Giles had to abandon his home and job in Thailand because he put his name to his opinions. More courage than many.
Ha Andrew, more courage than some, but maybe less than others. Some stayed and went to prison for the wrote or said didn’t they? How many kids that Giles has converted to his brand of Trotskyism will still have their lives after this mess is all over? Very seldom is it the teachers and leaders who get punished Andrew. I do believe that Giles never got as far the court did he? Courage can be a funny thing sometimes as I just don’t see it where I obviously should.
Bangkok at war
He obviously didn’t listen to the CRES pressers. Maybe it was voices in his head, I don’t know where he gets this stuff.
Reds firing M79 grenade:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmSPbugDAA
Bangkok at war
Troops being “ordered to target lower parts of the body”? The people the troops are shooting at through the iron bars of the park fence in the BBC footage at this link must be really, really tall. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8682051.stm
Bangkok at war
Photo of earlier incidents near Din Daeng
http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/id/44783
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
So guys after this is all over, just sometimes look at your hands and see if you can see the blood. Unfortunately I suspect you will not see it and you will sleep well.
Obviously a comment not appreciated by the academic community as it’s just been voted off the page. Ah well if they don’t want to hear so be it. Just remind me though, how many expat university professors have been among the killed so far? OK any Thai professors? None, I wonder why that is? Aren’t they the ones that have been calling for this? A bunch of motorbike kids have just been given 6 month jail sentences. Not any university professors in that bunch either. Nothing like walking the walk is there?
Bangkok at war
See if this is a weapon said by the Thai army.
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Thailand/ss/events/wl/041209thailand;_ylt=AlU9FQoOp6CNVxL3qldk5aGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoc2FqcjNyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTE1L2FzX3RoYWlsYW5kX3BvbGl0aWNzBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDNARwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDc2xpZGVzaG93#photoViewer=/100515/481/urn_publicid_ap_org_cb56ca7609bb481fad0c37eca53760ef
More photo
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Thailand/ss/events/wl/041209thailand;_ylt=AlU9FQoOp6CNVxL3qldk5aGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoc2FqcjNyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTE1L2FzX3RoYWlsYW5kX3BvbGl0aWNzBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDNARwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDc2xpZGVzaG93#photoViewer=/100515/481/urn_publicid_ap_org6a063efd841d44e9ab21f98483034c87
Bangkok at war
Update: 6:40 p.m. local,
As the army put the sign of “Live firing zone” near Din Daeng intersection, reports said soldier shoot any one entering the area.
The Nation photographer was shot at leg.
Some says even a pregnant woman also got shot.
Seems like the army use full force to crack down the protesters. Thairath newspaper reports the poll, Dusit Poll, claims people 51% agree with government to use force against the UDD.
The National Affair Inspector agrees with government to use force against protesters saying even in the U.S. , law is fully enforced.
Reports said the protesters captured 2 soldiers near Bon Kai intersection, those two, can’t speak Thai, they’re from Cambodia and hired by Newin. (to be confirmed).
In general, situation is tense.
Bangkok at war
Andrew (9) – you left out the most startling part of Lt-Gen Dapong’s statement:
“Troops have been armed with only M16 rifles and SK rifles, not war weapons…….They do not have heavy weapons like M79 grenades or RPG”
Many will be surprised to hear that semi-automatic rifles are not “war weapons” – but I guess we should be grateful that they’ve decided (for now) to leave the anti-aircraft guns, the mortars and other artillery pieces back at base.
As to troops being “ordered to target lower parts of the body” – perhaps that’s in response to the “bad press” they’re getting for the staggering number of head-shot casualties that have been inflicted? Of course, doing all they can to keep the media out of the conflict zones entirely also helps to avoid embarrassing reports going round the world within hours.
Bangkok at war
Les, Giles had to abandon his home and job in Thailand because he put his name to his opinions. More courage than many.
Bangkok at war
So Giles is coming back to take his place in the fight is he? Isn’t he? Come on Giles there’s some of your followers getting hurt here. Surely you are not going stay in comfortable London while this is going on are you? Not like Thaksin’s wife and kids and stay safe surely.
Rating comments
On the whole, I’m against the rating system as being trialled here. It does lend itself too easily to becoming just an agree/disagree vote – or even just like/dislike the poster. The simple “recommend” (or not) vote system is slightly less bad, but I still don’t see it as a plus.
It was predictable that certain posts would get voted down – and, following introduction of the trial, at least one serial and ubiquitous contributor seems to have gone out of his way to post comments that are even more ridiculous than his usual guff. My own view is that simply ignoring them is the best route – akin to the maxim of “don’t feed the trolls” and for much the same reasons.
Bangkok at war
From the Bangkok Post:
Bangkok at war
Just on Thai TV… the army said the reds shot each other, hence the recent deaths…and that they definitely did not shoot anyone. This is just obscene.
Bangkok at war
From Ji Ungpakorn: