“others outside the perimeters of Ratchaprasong intersection are getting organised”
Reds occupy Din Daeng intersection Bangkok Post 15/05/2010 at 12:39 PM
A group of anti-government protesters have occupied Din Daeng intersection, forcing cars and other vehicles to turn to Ratchaprarop road. The army prohibits any types of vehicles from entering Ratchaprarop. The demonstrators have blockaded Din Daeng intersection with tyres, steel pipes and woods in an attempt to pressure the army. The roadblocks force commuters to turn to Ratchaprarop road. Initial reports said many people were injured in clashes in Soi Rang Nam near the Victory Monument.
Seems like some bad sh-t went down (and continues) nr. Rajprarob. There are Facebook images ( http://bit.ly/acAET9 ) from an apartment in the area of 4-5 people lying, shot on the sidewalk. And further reports ( http://twitter.com/neilbkk1) of the army preventing inured from leaving the area to hospital.
Either no control within the ranks or they have been instructed to shoot anyone THEY judge as “red.”
Rama IV/ Soi Ngan Dumphli
In the morning Suan Phlu is restored to normalcy and the small crowd at the beginning of the soi is gone. Sathorn Soi 1 first remains closed around Lumpini Tower with about 20 soldiers resting in the shades cast by the walls around the building. Soi Ngan Dumphli, differently from Suan Phlu, is transformed by the on-going fights. The soi is relatively empty and the large majority of motor-taxis, normally sitting at every corner. seems to be gone, not clear where. As I get closer to the Rama IV intersection a small crowd of people, about 50, sits on their motorcycles and on the ground, in front of a burning plastic rubbish bin. Rama IV looks like a post-war zone. A garbage collection truck is smoking in the middle of the street in front of the side entrance to Suan Lum night bazar. Behind the truck the army has set a small protection wall with black sand bags. A tense silence fills the huge empty road covered in debris, burning tires, and broken glass from small hand-made Molotov and shatter phone boots. Sporadically a man walks out of the small crowd and shouts, amplified by an orange traffic cone,”buffalos” or “animals” to the army to which the soldiers reply with a short rounds of rubber bullets in the air. The silence is restored by the soft sounds of rubber bullets falling on the ground. On the other side of Rama IV, toward Klong Toei, four big truck tires are burning filling the air with thick black smoke. Inside Soi Ngan-Dumphli, back from the crowd a small group of motortaxi drivers drinks beers and show me the signs of bullets on the walls around the area. As I talk to them a younger man in black gear walks pass me carrying a small plastic bag filled with empty small red bull bottles. A hole has been carved on the top, from which small pieces of cloth come out. The guy sits on the sidewalk at the entrance of the soi and start filling the bottles with petrol.. The scene is grotesque. The Molotov keeps smashing on the ground with no effect as the crowd voices its disappointment and laugh. The guy keeps making them trying to find a working mixture. They seem all but highly trained paramilitary forces. In the middle of this an older Australian man walks slowly in the middle of Rama IV trying to take pictures with his small self phone. He walks toward me asking if I know how to do them and after I show him he walks back happily, ignoring my call to be careful, as some people hide behind the smashed phone boots throwing small stones at the police with slingshots.
I am quite old and I have lived more of my life in Thailand than anywhere else in the world including the country I was born in. Thailand has become my home and my children were born here and have Thai nationality. Even so my stay in Thailand depends on a yearly issued visa and it could be rescinded at any time. If the worst, in my opinion, happened and Thaksin returned I could find myself without a home quite easily.
If you doubt this you could look back to 2002 when two journalists of the Far Eastern Economic Review were threatened with expulsion over an article talking about the breakdown in the relationship between the King and Thaksin. One of them had made Bangkok his long term home so the threat is not to be sniffed at. (BTW the charge bought by Thaksin’s police force on them was of course lèse majesté, so that’s not just a recent government method of punishing foes. Thaksin was at it as well, although in this case I suspect the majesté was him.)
Now I may be posting and commenting anonymously, but that allows me to post without too the worry of future punishment. My real name is known to Andrew so when having this knowledge is bought up by him publicly in such a way I have a right to feel disconcerted. I will allow it may have been in the heat of an argument, but there should be a brain engagement before hitting the keyboard, and yes, I know all of us suffer from that defect at times.
Since the conflict is at least in part a matter of class/economic disparity, I find it interesting that one presenter chose to measure Thai interest based on Google searches.
I live in an urban setting and I realize that many people, primarily younger males, are becoming computer/Internet savvy, but even in the urban areas education/age/economics are barriers to using computers. In the rural areas those barriers are monumental. To measure interests based on Internet searches introduces a major sampling bias if you think the results somehow reflect on the interests of the general population.
Also, looking at headbands, clappers, posters etc says something about the marketing techniques of those with the money to produce and distribute such paraphernalia and very little about the grass-roots motivation for joining a movement or the expectations of the people who man the barricades.
I stopped watching the video half way through (out of disappointment in its quality) so I may have missed a sudden improvement in the level of the presentation, but it seemed likely that it would continue to be a breathless (literally … was there a shortage of oxygen on the dais?) , sophomoric discussion of what to many of us is a serious subject. Clearly one can see the importance of having Thai people involved in any such discussion. In their absence, intellectual depth and breadth on this topic is sorely missing.
77barnsybkk ,
Interesting you mention the dead kennedys “holiday in cambodia. It is actually a picture from THAILND! The cover picture of the single is taken from the 6 October 1976 Massacre in Thailand, and depicts a member of the rightist crowd beating the corpse of a student protester with a metal chair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday_in_Cambodia
For the media report of all the casualties and injuries, note the lack of explanation on the causes. No news reports explain what are the causes of those injuries and death.
Guess the protesters just drop down and died en mass.
Andrew – I take exception to your, ” chip-on-the-shoulder expats” comment. This denegrates a lot of those on here, myself included, who are simply trying to make sense of the country we have chosen to live in.
I don’t have a chip on my shoulder, nor do I use this forum to complain for the sake of it, or take cheap shots, whatever the topic in question.
Coming back to my first point, it is a real challenge living in Thailand, especially if you take the time to try to engage with the people and the country. Some expats do not and, undoubtably, have made such a decision to maintain a comfortable and safe distance. So be it, we all have a choice in life.
I still don’t understand why you are asking people to rate comments, as I asked in my earlier post – see JohnH 3.
If people don’t agree or agree, then encourage further commentary, discourse and debate, after all, ”New Mandala encourages vigorous debate”, doesn’t it?
Applying a rating system to the site simply undermines what you, I imagine, had initially set out to do with New Mandala.
“When it’s all over the blood will be on many hands and not just the government, the army, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders. It will also be on the academics, both local and expats, who gave the red shirt movement respectability it didn’t earn and tried to convince the world that this was a class struggle not the ambitions of the richest Thai man trying to buy a revolution.”
Don’t for a minute assume that people like myself who “support” the Reds, whatever that may mean, are not constantly reevaluating that support in the light of events. The more people die, the more I wonder if it isn’t better for the Reds to simply go home. And considering that no one, and I mean no one, is going to come out of this episode a “winner”, it becomes more and more difficult to abstractly define what purpose might be served by continuing the protest.
But when I talk to the few Reds I know, and hear the strength of their commitment to fighting on, I have to acknowledge that my moral quandary really has little to do with the “real” situation.
Those Reds are not being paid by anyone and neither are they passively accepting of all the rhetoric that pours forth from the stage at Rajprasong; they are angry that they have been disenfranchised, angry that they are characterised as stupid, brainwashed peasants who are willing to die for 500 Baht, and now they are angry that they are being killed by a government headed by a cowardly hypocrite who is hiding out in a barracks as he and his representatives claim to be “in control”.
I take that anger to be a healthy “political” emotion, and not some irrational expression of a failure of “jai yen”. And I respect that far more than I do my own ethical quibbling.
What is happening in Bangkok now is the clear result of one man’s refusal to surrender his illegitimate power in the face of a sustained protest that is evidence, if any more were needed, of his “government’s” illegitimacy.
The blood is on his hands and his hands alone, if that phrase is to have any real meaning. And when subsequent analysis begins to show that Abhisit was acting as a front for the cabal of usual suspects, there will be blood on more hands. And it won’t be on the hands of those who tried to help the world see that the Reds were more than just paid lackeys in the service of a billionaire.
After being unable to secure the deal with the Govt for a November election, the best the Red-shirts could hope for, the moderate Red-shirt leaders have resigned and left the rally to extremists. A take-over of the Red-shirts by the murderous thug Seh Daeng has been mercifully prevented, but they have degenerated into a rabble now. Meanwhile the moronic generals appear to have issued an order to target journalists. Like all criminals they have a pathological fear of the truth getting out. They may yet succeed in turning the whole world against them.
Tiptop (68) “And what about the video showing soldiers shooting inside Lumpini ?” (I assume Tiptop means “into” Lumpini).
This one? BBC’s Alastair Leithead reports on a squad of Thai soldiers firing successive M16 rounds through the metal bars of a tall fence – at protesters “about half a mile away” across the park: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8682051.stm
Poorly-trained, edgy troops firing at what they perceive to be an approaching threat to them is one thing. A “stray” bullet hitting an already wounded Canadian journalist lying on the ground (as per the CNN video) – arguably that’s also attributable to wild firing….. an accident.
But sustained firing from behind a 4- metre fence – and the protesters are half a mile away? Self-defence? Panic? Taunting? Can’t wait to see the rationalisation for that scenario…..
Totally agree with ya LesAbbey! I nearly pissed myself whilst laughing when seeing one of the red leaders in a “Ghandi” t-shirt 2 days ago, I think his actually said “Khandi”! These guys have been chuckin bombs around for months, or is it years? Songkran/ASEAN! I also recall Taksin wearing a designer anarchy symbol shirt back in the day and wondering does he even know what that sign means, and what type of people are usually seen sporting such fashions? Seeing how at the time he was an ex copper, billionaire, PM. Normally not the type of person one suspects of being a fan of the Dead Kennedy’s, Misfits etc.. But then again he has had a few “Holidays in Cambodia” recently!555 Looking back now I really think he bought the anarchy shirt himself and didn’t just get his washing mixed up with Oaks.
You must actually believe the establishment media of Thailand who writes as if Thaksin has “Spirit Money” that is unlimited (more than Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and the entire GDP of Thailand itself combined x 1,000,000,000) and can bribe anyone and everything (citizens, journalists, 1st world foreign governments) that doesn’t agree with the Thai right wing perspective.
“I think the ‘posting under your real name’ business sort of implies that Andrew and Nich have taken a considerable and courageous risk with their own identities and careers running this site, and you have not by posting on it anonymously. I’m sure Andrew and Nich have protected peoples identities who have something controversial to say.”
What is being written on NM is, IMO, extremely dangerous in places like Burma and Thailand. One could get easily killed or jailed for the contents here.
Accordingly Andrew and Nich go extra length to protect the identities of the contributors here, and believe me that was my own experience. As these two travel so frequently in Burma and Thailand one has to admire their convictions and courage.
“When it’s all over the blood will be on many hands and not just the government, the army, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders. It will also be on the academics, both local and expats, who gave the red shirt movement respectability it didn’t earn and tried to convince the world that this was a class struggle not the ambitions of the richest Thai man trying to buy a revolution.”
No Sir! The cold red blood will be on the hands pulling the triggers, and the hands pulling the strings that control the hands on the triggers.
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Thailand’s sideshow is over
“others outside the perimeters of Ratchaprasong intersection are getting organised”
Reds occupy Din Daeng intersection Bangkok Post 15/05/2010 at 12:39 PM
A group of anti-government protesters have occupied Din Daeng intersection, forcing cars and other vehicles to turn to Ratchaprarop road. The army prohibits any types of vehicles from entering Ratchaprarop. The demonstrators have blockaded Din Daeng intersection with tyres, steel pipes and woods in an attempt to pressure the army. The roadblocks force commuters to turn to Ratchaprarop road. Initial reports said many people were injured in clashes in Soi Rang Nam near the Victory Monument.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Seems like some bad sh-t went down (and continues) nr. Rajprarob. There are Facebook images ( http://bit.ly/acAET9 ) from an apartment in the area of 4-5 people lying, shot on the sidewalk. And further reports ( http://twitter.com/neilbkk1) of the army preventing inured from leaving the area to hospital.
Either no control within the ranks or they have been instructed to shoot anyone THEY judge as “red.”
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Rama IV/ Soi Ngan Dumphli
In the morning Suan Phlu is restored to normalcy and the small crowd at the beginning of the soi is gone. Sathorn Soi 1 first remains closed around Lumpini Tower with about 20 soldiers resting in the shades cast by the walls around the building. Soi Ngan Dumphli, differently from Suan Phlu, is transformed by the on-going fights. The soi is relatively empty and the large majority of motor-taxis, normally sitting at every corner. seems to be gone, not clear where. As I get closer to the Rama IV intersection a small crowd of people, about 50, sits on their motorcycles and on the ground, in front of a burning plastic rubbish bin. Rama IV looks like a post-war zone. A garbage collection truck is smoking in the middle of the street in front of the side entrance to Suan Lum night bazar. Behind the truck the army has set a small protection wall with black sand bags. A tense silence fills the huge empty road covered in debris, burning tires, and broken glass from small hand-made Molotov and shatter phone boots. Sporadically a man walks out of the small crowd and shouts, amplified by an orange traffic cone,”buffalos” or “animals” to the army to which the soldiers reply with a short rounds of rubber bullets in the air. The silence is restored by the soft sounds of rubber bullets falling on the ground. On the other side of Rama IV, toward Klong Toei, four big truck tires are burning filling the air with thick black smoke. Inside Soi Ngan-Dumphli, back from the crowd a small group of motortaxi drivers drinks beers and show me the signs of bullets on the walls around the area. As I talk to them a younger man in black gear walks pass me carrying a small plastic bag filled with empty small red bull bottles. A hole has been carved on the top, from which small pieces of cloth come out. The guy sits on the sidewalk at the entrance of the soi and start filling the bottles with petrol.. The scene is grotesque. The Molotov keeps smashing on the ground with no effect as the crowd voices its disappointment and laugh. The guy keeps making them trying to find a working mixture. They seem all but highly trained paramilitary forces. In the middle of this an older Australian man walks slowly in the middle of Rama IV trying to take pictures with his small self phone. He walks toward me asking if I know how to do them and after I show him he walks back happily, ignoring my call to be careful, as some people hide behind the smashed phone boots throwing small stones at the police with slingshots.
Rating comments
Colum Graham – 21
I am quite old and I have lived more of my life in Thailand than anywhere else in the world including the country I was born in. Thailand has become my home and my children were born here and have Thai nationality. Even so my stay in Thailand depends on a yearly issued visa and it could be rescinded at any time. If the worst, in my opinion, happened and Thaksin returned I could find myself without a home quite easily.
If you doubt this you could look back to 2002 when two journalists of the Far Eastern Economic Review were threatened with expulsion over an article talking about the breakdown in the relationship between the King and Thaksin. One of them had made Bangkok his long term home so the threat is not to be sniffed at. (BTW the charge bought by Thaksin’s police force on them was of course lèse majesté, so that’s not just a recent government method of punishing foes. Thaksin was at it as well, although in this case I suspect the majesté was him.)
Now I may be posting and commenting anonymously, but that allows me to post without too the worry of future punishment. My real name is known to Andrew so when having this knowledge is bought up by him publicly in such a way I have a right to feel disconcerted. I will allow it may have been in the heat of an argument, but there should be a brain engagement before hitting the keyboard, and yes, I know all of us suffer from that defect at times.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Steve I am not sure the canadian shooting was an accident. He has been shot 3 times: leg, hand and abdomen. That’s 3 consecutive “accidents”.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Steve I was thinking about this one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/may/14/thai-troops-fire-on-redshirts
And on this one we can see the canadian journalist shot, and a red shirt shot probably by a sniper: http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2010/05/14/rivers.thailand.mayhem.cnn.html
I saw myself a sniper shooting from Dusit hotel yesterday.
And here the picture of the dead medic: http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topic/P9253830/P9253830.html
Video of Thailand on the Verge
Since the conflict is at least in part a matter of class/economic disparity, I find it interesting that one presenter chose to measure Thai interest based on Google searches.
I live in an urban setting and I realize that many people, primarily younger males, are becoming computer/Internet savvy, but even in the urban areas education/age/economics are barriers to using computers. In the rural areas those barriers are monumental. To measure interests based on Internet searches introduces a major sampling bias if you think the results somehow reflect on the interests of the general population.
Also, looking at headbands, clappers, posters etc says something about the marketing techniques of those with the money to produce and distribute such paraphernalia and very little about the grass-roots motivation for joining a movement or the expectations of the people who man the barricades.
I stopped watching the video half way through (out of disappointment in its quality) so I may have missed a sudden improvement in the level of the presentation, but it seemed likely that it would continue to be a breathless (literally … was there a shortage of oxygen on the dais?) , sophomoric discussion of what to many of us is a serious subject. Clearly one can see the importance of having Thai people involved in any such discussion. In their absence, intellectual depth and breadth on this topic is sorely missing.
Rating comments
Maybe, “Like the comment – yes/no” is more accurate than “Agree – yes/no.”
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
77barnsybkk ,
Interesting you mention the dead kennedys “holiday in cambodia. It is actually a picture from THAILND! The cover picture of the single is taken from the 6 October 1976 Massacre in Thailand, and depicts a member of the rightist crowd beating the corpse of a student protester with a metal chair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday_in_Cambodia
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
For the media report of all the casualties and injuries, note the lack of explanation on the causes. No news reports explain what are the causes of those injuries and death.
Guess the protesters just drop down and died en mass.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
[…] Mandala writes about the prospect of the Red Shirt protest It occurs to us that one issue which is probably crucial to the immediate […]
Rating comments
Andrew – I take exception to your, ” chip-on-the-shoulder expats” comment. This denegrates a lot of those on here, myself included, who are simply trying to make sense of the country we have chosen to live in.
I don’t have a chip on my shoulder, nor do I use this forum to complain for the sake of it, or take cheap shots, whatever the topic in question.
Coming back to my first point, it is a real challenge living in Thailand, especially if you take the time to try to engage with the people and the country. Some expats do not and, undoubtably, have made such a decision to maintain a comfortable and safe distance. So be it, we all have a choice in life.
I still don’t understand why you are asking people to rate comments, as I asked in my earlier post – see JohnH 3.
If people don’t agree or agree, then encourage further commentary, discourse and debate, after all, ”New Mandala encourages vigorous debate”, doesn’t it?
Applying a rating system to the site simply undermines what you, I imagine, had initially set out to do with New Mandala.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
“When it’s all over the blood will be on many hands and not just the government, the army, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders. It will also be on the academics, both local and expats, who gave the red shirt movement respectability it didn’t earn and tried to convince the world that this was a class struggle not the ambitions of the richest Thai man trying to buy a revolution.”
Don’t for a minute assume that people like myself who “support” the Reds, whatever that may mean, are not constantly reevaluating that support in the light of events. The more people die, the more I wonder if it isn’t better for the Reds to simply go home. And considering that no one, and I mean no one, is going to come out of this episode a “winner”, it becomes more and more difficult to abstractly define what purpose might be served by continuing the protest.
But when I talk to the few Reds I know, and hear the strength of their commitment to fighting on, I have to acknowledge that my moral quandary really has little to do with the “real” situation.
Those Reds are not being paid by anyone and neither are they passively accepting of all the rhetoric that pours forth from the stage at Rajprasong; they are angry that they have been disenfranchised, angry that they are characterised as stupid, brainwashed peasants who are willing to die for 500 Baht, and now they are angry that they are being killed by a government headed by a cowardly hypocrite who is hiding out in a barracks as he and his representatives claim to be “in control”.
I take that anger to be a healthy “political” emotion, and not some irrational expression of a failure of “jai yen”. And I respect that far more than I do my own ethical quibbling.
What is happening in Bangkok now is the clear result of one man’s refusal to surrender his illegitimate power in the face of a sustained protest that is evidence, if any more were needed, of his “government’s” illegitimacy.
The blood is on his hands and his hands alone, if that phrase is to have any real meaning. And when subsequent analysis begins to show that Abhisit was acting as a front for the cabal of usual suspects, there will be blood on more hands. And it won’t be on the hands of those who tried to help the world see that the Reds were more than just paid lackeys in the service of a billionaire.
Crackdown? Abhisit’s last stand?
After being unable to secure the deal with the Govt for a November election, the best the Red-shirts could hope for, the moderate Red-shirt leaders have resigned and left the rally to extremists. A take-over of the Red-shirts by the murderous thug Seh Daeng has been mercifully prevented, but they have degenerated into a rabble now. Meanwhile the moronic generals appear to have issued an order to target journalists. Like all criminals they have a pathological fear of the truth getting out. They may yet succeed in turning the whole world against them.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Tiptop (68) “And what about the video showing soldiers shooting inside Lumpini ?” (I assume Tiptop means “into” Lumpini).
This one? BBC’s Alastair Leithead reports on a squad of Thai soldiers firing successive M16 rounds through the metal bars of a tall fence – at protesters “about half a mile away” across the park: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8682051.stm
Poorly-trained, edgy troops firing at what they perceive to be an approaching threat to them is one thing. A “stray” bullet hitting an already wounded Canadian journalist lying on the ground (as per the CNN video) – arguably that’s also attributable to wild firing….. an accident.
But sustained firing from behind a 4- metre fence – and the protesters are half a mile away? Self-defence? Panic? Taunting? Can’t wait to see the rationalisation for that scenario…..
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Totally agree with ya LesAbbey! I nearly pissed myself whilst laughing when seeing one of the red leaders in a “Ghandi” t-shirt 2 days ago, I think his actually said “Khandi”! These guys have been chuckin bombs around for months, or is it years? Songkran/ASEAN! I also recall Taksin wearing a designer anarchy symbol shirt back in the day and wondering does he even know what that sign means, and what type of people are usually seen sporting such fashions? Seeing how at the time he was an ex copper, billionaire, PM. Normally not the type of person one suspects of being a fan of the Dead Kennedy’s, Misfits etc.. But then again he has had a few “Holidays in Cambodia” recently!555 Looking back now I really think he bought the anarchy shirt himself and didn’t just get his washing mixed up with Oaks.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
LesAbbey, is Thaksin REALLY the richest person in Thailand? Try googling a list of the 10 riches people in thailand.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/24/business/business_30112988.php
You must actually believe the establishment media of Thailand who writes as if Thaksin has “Spirit Money” that is unlimited (more than Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and the entire GDP of Thailand itself combined x 1,000,000,000) and can bribe anyone and everything (citizens, journalists, 1st world foreign governments) that doesn’t agree with the Thai right wing perspective.
Rating comments
“I think the ‘posting under your real name’ business sort of implies that Andrew and Nich have taken a considerable and courageous risk with their own identities and careers running this site, and you have not by posting on it anonymously. I’m sure Andrew and Nich have protected peoples identities who have something controversial to say.”
What is being written on NM is, IMO, extremely dangerous in places like Burma and Thailand. One could get easily killed or jailed for the contents here.
Accordingly Andrew and Nich go extra length to protect the identities of the contributors here, and believe me that was my own experience. As these two travel so frequently in Burma and Thailand one has to admire their convictions and courage.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
Tiptop: “And what about the video showing soldiers shooting inside Lumpini ? They were not attacking ? Who provoked them ?”
And the soldiers were shooting through the iron fence! It was hardly self-defense.
Bangkok: A dangerous new phase
“When it’s all over the blood will be on many hands and not just the government, the army, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders. It will also be on the academics, both local and expats, who gave the red shirt movement respectability it didn’t earn and tried to convince the world that this was a class struggle not the ambitions of the richest Thai man trying to buy a revolution.”
No Sir! The cold red blood will be on the hands pulling the triggers, and the hands pulling the strings that control the hands on the triggers.