Sophistry? Really? Just because Thongchai’s in-depth, incisive commentary doesn’t quite fit into your, PAD cheerleading, hyper-selective, authoritarian-cultist worldview means you dismiss it out of hand? That’s too bad. Maybe you should actually look at the argument and come up with a better critique than “sophistry” and your other typical boiler-plate babble.
I doubt that there were fewer people who knows ‘Sufficient Economy’ comes before HM speech. And the scary part is, fewer will know about that here in 10 yrs time.
Kulti – 20,
Welcome to the club, I was in US when the 2006 coup happened as well and same as you I got info from the outside looking in and it completely change the way I look at my own country.
Re” I think Aphisit and those pulling strings behind him should stop the discrediting operation against the NM.”
I’m puzzled by what you say here.
I assume by NM you mean New Mandala.
As far as can be ascertained from this web-site, it is still not blocked in Thailand. Remarkable.
Surely Abhisit deserves some credit for keeping free, open, and democratic discussion alive here.
People can try discrediting NM as much as they like – that’s democracy and free speach.
But the very high quality of this site speaks for itself.
Andrew – I think you can rightly claim to be the first FARANG
who coined this term.
As Thais above have pointed out, it was already common currency in Thailand.
And Bh. V. #8
Re : ‘And Australia has a “sufficiency free press.”’
Never a truer word was said – Australia remains in an appalling state of Asia-ignorance.
Congratulations to NM for greatly improving this.
Dr Peter Werr’s presentation missed the fact that before Abhisit took over the government, The PAD closed the two international Airports and the government’s house and the court kicked out two successive PM’s and there were thugs riding on the back of trucks shooting at people. May be these facts had some effects on the GDP and the poor economy. Certainly hurt tourism and exports.
I also want PAD in court as well and still do hope that it will happen one day soon.
I and many of my friends got negative impact on our business from the closure of the airport. We were all upset to see the mess in the government house. We also had arguement with our PAD friends even until now.
Why Red has to do similar bad things as Yellow? Just to be fair, keeping it single standard or democracy, isn’t it?
The point that I want to make is just the Red induced a lot more threathen feelings to an individual as a people living, working in Bangkok and including real injuries to many innocence people. Is it still called “democracy” or peacful pretest by your definition? It was not our immagination as understood by Thongchai. The GERMS were created by what Red themselves have done and wittness by public, medias and all people who are still have intact judgement.
Polymorpheus #58 and R.N. England #59 – thank you both for these excellent insights.
Personally I think Bangkok’s Governor, and Abhisit – should be praised to the heavans for trying to find a peaceful way out of this
extremely worrisome, complex, potentially catastrophic crisis.
I am Thai, currently living in Thailand. When the coup in 2006 I was studying in the US. I was informed about political issue from outside sources. When I got back and had conversations with Thais who were living in the country during that time and I was shocked that many Thais know so little about what had been going on in the country. Now I am starving for the uncensored analysis as the first speaker stated.
@Hana as you’ve said”This is a shame of Thai country that we are try to be developed country but the same time, we still have many poor and uneducated people.” Your words sounds a little bit like Abhisit’s (before he was the PM) when he claim that his party should govern the country as the poll claimed that though he lose the election, EDUCATED people voted for him……..I gone blank when I heard this. The problem of lack of education in people is a problem that any government have to solve in order to develop their country.
Not to use it as a tool to increase more inequality in the country. Or make it sounds right for you to be in power because you think of yourself as a more educated one…
Consider this, Whether you are a rich educated city person or a farmer who never gone to any school, still both have one voice. Equally. You have to respect that. To knock the system is not a long term solution. If Taksin ‘s party was corrupt then use the system to knock him down, not go knock the system.
In the period after the abdication in 1932 the Thai military hijacked and secured their rule.
Since then the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
Without the military, the government, reds with Peu Thai and others will be able to act like normal political rivals and develop democratic solutions.
The insurgency in the south of Thailand will also subside since it is fuelled primarily by the same rule by the military (“Bangkok elites”) that is inspiring the reds only more so because the military in the south are exercising their violence, sadism and illegal businesses at levels so far not permitted to them, except in treating certain groups like refugees and “illegal migrant workers” in the rest of the country.
Fears of the PAD, and even perhaps the reds, disturbing the peace and distorting political outcomes will evaporate when no group is able to call on or be inspired by military support.
Bottling the military is an ongoing challenge for every democracy, for example witness the recent upsurgence of military power in the US, but must be achieved and sustained.
Thongchai, I think you just tried to be smart but in fact, you should update your construction of knowledge about Thailand. You are talking about Thailand of your own imagination.
The Sakdina card game (58) determines what is to be believed. Belief is based on the status of the utterer, never on the facts of the matter. People believe Sukumbhand because he is a close relative of the King. This happens to be a blessing because he also appears to be the best and brightest of the King’s extended family, and is high enough in the pecking order not to be too frightened about what Prem might think.
I was in Thailand last year, and left when the protests started getting heavy. I’d lived there for four years.
One thing I noticed was that amongst the army and tanks preparing near Sukhumvit, were about 10 or 20 army people dressed as civilians or motorbike taxi drivers.
I say they were army people because it was quite clear from how they interacted with the other army people, how they stood, walked, were clearly separated from the real civilians, and were preparing in exactly the same way as the clothed army officers. Clearly undercover of some sort.
Ofcourse the protests last year were nowhere near as violent as they are now, but based on what I saw it doesn’t seem implausible to me that the army would have some undercover people this time around.
Buddha said : ” Everything is Impermanence .”
While the ” Krunk People ” have a good life and look down on the ” Bannok People “……everything has to be changed by Nature Laws.
It’s not my prediction but it came through my experiences as a victim of Khmer Rouge regime and a refugee at the Thai camp.From Down Under,30 yrs here in Sydney, I ‘ve been tried to learn why was this happened in Cambodia ?
When the big gap is in between the Rich & the Poor …..the Volcano of injustice would be erupted at any time.I didn’t understand it until I was a victim one of the Khmer Rouge regime.In the jungle & rural I did understood the suffering of Khmer rural people that they were endured by so many centuries of Khmer history.For nearly 4 yrs,1975-1979,I had received the Highest Disploma that I graduaded from the Khmer Rouge school where we cannot having it on the planet.
And now this event will be occured in Thailand,Land of Smiles ?
Before it’ll be too late pls think serously the welfare of poor people
who are the majority of Thai society :
. the Greedy
. the Egoism
. Thai Army no longer the group of the State in the State
. The Royal Palace has to stop to interferre to Thai
Politic
I wish to see Thai People is smiling again in their Land of Smiles.
Cheers.
Ung Bun Heang
An ex refugee from Cambodia http://www.khmerrouge-toons.blogspot.com
I don’t think Chula’s people were over react from the immage of red shirts created by mass medias
The thing is, the Police Hospital was about 10 steps away from the main Red stage, and no, the Police Hospital doesn’t have any problem with that, so why does the Chula Hospital got so much problem??
Rather they were not accepted by the way they behaved: -law breaking, violence, rude, mafia behaviors. We respect their right for peacful protest, expressing their polical, economical or social demand (which many other groups had done before e.g. famer mob, dam protester mob etc)
Yes, so where were you when the PAD did exactly the same thing 2 years ago??? of the PAD leaders dont go to jail for assaulting the Government House and the airport and the UDD leaders have to go to jail, then the double standard practice in Thailand is pretty obvious right???
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Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
jonfernquest –
Sophistry? Really? Just because Thongchai’s in-depth, incisive commentary doesn’t quite fit into your, PAD cheerleading, hyper-selective, authoritarian-cultist worldview means you dismiss it out of hand? That’s too bad. Maybe you should actually look at the argument and come up with a better critique than “sophistry” and your other typical boiler-plate babble.
Best,
RJ
Street fighting in Bangkok
Everyone is now focused on Bangkok.
But in my humble opinion this is not where the real action is :
the real action is in Isaarn.
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
I doubt that there were fewer people who knows ‘Sufficient Economy’ comes before HM speech. And the scary part is, fewer will know about that here in 10 yrs time.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
I used to be Yellow.
I was Red.
I joined Pink.
I supported Multi-Colour.
I see all of you, my dear friends.
And I’ll pray for you all.
Sleep well, Thailand.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
Kulti – 20,
Welcome to the club, I was in US when the 2006 coup happened as well and same as you I got info from the outside looking in and it completely change the way I look at my own country.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
Suzie Wong #4 :
Re” I think Aphisit and those pulling strings behind him should stop the discrediting operation against the NM.”
I’m puzzled by what you say here.
I assume by NM you mean New Mandala.
As far as can be ascertained from this web-site, it is still not blocked in Thailand. Remarkable.
Surely Abhisit deserves some credit for keeping free, open, and democratic discussion alive here.
People can try discrediting NM as much as they like – that’s democracy and free speach.
But the very high quality of this site speaks for itself.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
[…] New Mandala р╣Вр╕Фр╕в р╕ир╕▓р╕кр╕Хр╕гр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣М р╕Фр╕нр╕Бр╣Ар╕Хр╕нр╕гр╣Мр╕Шр╕Зр╕Кр╕▒р╕в […]
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
Andrew – I think you can rightly claim to be the first FARANG
who coined this term.
As Thais above have pointed out, it was already common currency in Thailand.
And Bh. V. #8
Re : ‘And Australia has a “sufficiency free press.”’
Never a truer word was said – Australia remains in an appalling state of Asia-ignorance.
Congratulations to NM for greatly improving this.
Video of Thailand on the Verge
Dr Peter Werr’s presentation missed the fact that before Abhisit took over the government, The PAD closed the two international Airports and the government’s house and the court kicked out two successive PM’s and there were thugs riding on the back of trucks shooting at people. May be these facts had some effects on the GDP and the poor economy. Certainly hurt tourism and exports.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Tarrin
I also want PAD in court as well and still do hope that it will happen one day soon.
I and many of my friends got negative impact on our business from the closure of the airport. We were all upset to see the mess in the government house. We also had arguement with our PAD friends even until now.
Why Red has to do similar bad things as Yellow? Just to be fair, keeping it single standard or democracy, isn’t it?
The point that I want to make is just the Red induced a lot more threathen feelings to an individual as a people living, working in Bangkok and including real injuries to many innocence people. Is it still called “democracy” or peacful pretest by your definition? It was not our immagination as understood by Thongchai. The GERMS were created by what Red themselves have done and wittness by public, medias and all people who are still have intact judgement.
Abhisit’s offer
Polymorpheus #58 and R.N. England #59 – thank you both for these excellent insights.
Personally I think Bangkok’s Governor, and Abhisit – should be praised to the heavans for trying to find a peaceful way out of this
extremely worrisome, complex, potentially catastrophic crisis.
Going to Pagan: Gay slang in Burma
[…] (Yuri was previously featured in a New Mandala post here) […]
Video of Thailand on the Verge
I am Thai, currently living in Thailand. When the coup in 2006 I was studying in the US. I was informed about political issue from outside sources. When I got back and had conversations with Thais who were living in the country during that time and I was shocked that many Thais know so little about what had been going on in the country. Now I am starving for the uncensored analysis as the first speaker stated.
@Hana as you’ve said”This is a shame of Thai country that we are try to be developed country but the same time, we still have many poor and uneducated people.” Your words sounds a little bit like Abhisit’s (before he was the PM) when he claim that his party should govern the country as the poll claimed that though he lose the election, EDUCATED people voted for him……..I gone blank when I heard this. The problem of lack of education in people is a problem that any government have to solve in order to develop their country.
Not to use it as a tool to increase more inequality in the country. Or make it sounds right for you to be in power because you think of yourself as a more educated one…
Consider this, Whether you are a rich educated city person or a farmer who never gone to any school, still both have one voice. Equally. You have to respect that. To knock the system is not a long term solution. If Taksin ‘s party was corrupt then use the system to knock him down, not go knock the system.
Street fighting in Bangkok
In the period after the abdication in 1932 the Thai military hijacked and secured their rule.
Since then the military, using the monarchy as cover and in cooperation with big business families (generally grouped as the Bangkok Elites), has been in control of Thailand with various thin layers of civilian and political leaders rising and falling at the whim of the military.
Until someone is able to control the military, lock them in their barracks, banned from any involvement in business, politics and any actions inside the country, attempts at democracy will fail in Thailand.
Without the military, the government, reds with Peu Thai and others will be able to act like normal political rivals and develop democratic solutions.
The insurgency in the south of Thailand will also subside since it is fuelled primarily by the same rule by the military (“Bangkok elites”) that is inspiring the reds only more so because the military in the south are exercising their violence, sadism and illegal businesses at levels so far not permitted to them, except in treating certain groups like refugees and “illegal migrant workers” in the rest of the country.
Fears of the PAD, and even perhaps the reds, disturbing the peace and distorting political outcomes will evaporate when no group is able to call on or be inspired by military support.
Bottling the military is an ongoing challenge for every democracy, for example witness the recent upsurgence of military power in the US, but must be achieved and sustained.
Now, how can someone achieve this in Thailand?
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Thongchai, I think you just tried to be smart but in fact, you should update your construction of knowledge about Thailand. You are talking about Thailand of your own imagination.
Abhisit’s offer
The Sakdina card game (58) determines what is to be believed. Belief is based on the status of the utterer, never on the facts of the matter. People believe Sukumbhand because he is a close relative of the King. This happens to be a blessing because he also appears to be the best and brightest of the King’s extended family, and is high enough in the pecking order not to be too frightened about what Prem might think.
Street fighting in Bangkok
I was in Thailand last year, and left when the protests started getting heavy. I’d lived there for four years.
One thing I noticed was that amongst the army and tanks preparing near Sukhumvit, were about 10 or 20 army people dressed as civilians or motorbike taxi drivers.
I say they were army people because it was quite clear from how they interacted with the other army people, how they stood, walked, were clearly separated from the real civilians, and were preparing in exactly the same way as the clothed army officers. Clearly undercover of some sort.
Ofcourse the protests last year were nowhere near as violent as they are now, but based on what I saw it doesn’t seem implausible to me that the army would have some undercover people this time around.
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
Buddha said : ” Everything is Impermanence .”
While the ” Krunk People ” have a good life and look down on the ” Bannok People “……everything has to be changed by Nature Laws.
It’s not my prediction but it came through my experiences as a victim of Khmer Rouge regime and a refugee at the Thai camp.From Down Under,30 yrs here in Sydney, I ‘ve been tried to learn why was this happened in Cambodia ?
When the big gap is in between the Rich & the Poor …..the Volcano of injustice would be erupted at any time.I didn’t understand it until I was a victim one of the Khmer Rouge regime.In the jungle & rural I did understood the suffering of Khmer rural people that they were endured by so many centuries of Khmer history.For nearly 4 yrs,1975-1979,I had received the Highest Disploma that I graduaded from the Khmer Rouge school where we cannot having it on the planet.
And now this event will be occured in Thailand,Land of Smiles ?
Before it’ll be too late pls think serously the welfare of poor people
who are the majority of Thai society :
. the Greedy
. the Egoism
. Thai Army no longer the group of the State in the State
. The Royal Palace has to stop to interferre to Thai
Politic
I wish to see Thai People is smiling again in their Land of Smiles.
Cheers.
Ung Bun Heang
An ex refugee from Cambodia
http://www.khmerrouge-toons.blogspot.com
Thongchai Winichakul on the Red “germs”
T. Naiwat – 79
I don’t think Chula’s people were over react from the immage of red shirts created by mass medias
The thing is, the Police Hospital was about 10 steps away from the main Red stage, and no, the Police Hospital doesn’t have any problem with that, so why does the Chula Hospital got so much problem??
Rather they were not accepted by the way they behaved: -law breaking, violence, rude, mafia behaviors. We respect their right for peacful protest, expressing their polical, economical or social demand (which many other groups had done before e.g. famer mob, dam protester mob etc)
Yes, so where were you when the PAD did exactly the same thing 2 years ago??? of the PAD leaders dont go to jail for assaulting the Government House and the airport and the UDD leaders have to go to jail, then the double standard practice in Thailand is pretty obvious right???
“Sufficiency democracy” – my contribution to political science vocabulary?
“Do what I say, not what I do” , this is what I think of anything that is sufficient.