It is often difficult for a non-Thai to understand the nuances behind what occurs in Thailand, be it politics or corruption. Clearly Aussie Alumnus does have in-depth understanding and much of the debate on this forum is due to arguments being put forward by well-intentioned people who simply do not understand what he is trying to get across.
For clarity on this impasse I recommend Pasuk & Bakers’ article of 15 April in the Asian Wall Street Journal.
The issue we were discussing was how we can verify what happened during Songkran 2009 (or April 10 2010) when the government controls all the major media outlets and censors or severely restricts the pro-Red media.
It was not about the alleged reasons for the government’s censorship.
Perhaps the government views PTV as a communication tool for red leaders to command their supporters to go to war with the government. It’s mostly life feed from the red stage, isn’t it?
Perhaps you could argue in defense of some universal right to call to war for a just cause, but as far as the state is concerned – that can’t be allowed, especially if reds take control of transmitting facilities by force.
Maratjp (1) – I sense you know the answer, but if you are not in a position to elaborate: I would think the Reds’ elevation of Taksin (I mean, the king 1767-82) above Chulalongkorn and Bhumibol is meant as a slur on the Chakri dynasty. The Chakris overthrew Taksin in a coup in 1782 and put Taksin to death. Yet, because Taksin is revered as having expelled the Burmese and resurrecting (indeed expanding) the Thai kingdom he cannot be denied his place as a great Thai king. The parallels between Taksin after 1767 and Thaksin after the financial crisis 1997-8, and the fate both suffered (overthrown by a Chakri coup), are striking for historically-minded Reds.
I was in Sanam Luang in 1973 and witnessed the hangings from trees, and one guy repeatedly beating an already dead kid whilst others stood around and watched. How can the army be so cruel, I thought. It wasn’t until years later that I learnt of the involvement also of the ‘village scouts’.
Thammasart students were killed, and those that didn’t escape were rounded up and taken to ‘camps’. Parents grieved missing offspring, and Puey Ungaphorn who had been labeled a communist fled to the UK. Outrage followed and the then prime minister/army commander Thanom, his son Narong, and Praphas also fled from Thailand. More or less overnight the controlled news media turned to free reporting.
So if history is to repeat itself, can we not skip the angst and bloodshed and just accept the end result; better to resign now and let another game start rather than drag this one on until it’s deathly end. Or perhaps the game from 1973 is still ongoing…..albeit over time under different ideological names. And it’s destined to continue until the populace’s vote is unequivocally upheld.
Another historical comparison; is Ratchprasong Thailand’s Tiananmen? There are many parallels, media blackout, tent style encampment in a prestigeous even symbolic part of the capital, (Mao Tse Tung’s image was as always looking down), peaceful demonstrators organising and cooperating amongst themselves, similar demonstrations in other parts of the Country, unequal distribution of GDP, etc. The bloody outcome is well remembered yet it has been purged politically ever since. (Ask a Chinese student nowadays about the Tianamen massacre….eh,eh?. There may be a slight shift though as per this article:
So if indeed any such historical comparison exists, how will Thailand, ‘the land of the free’, address it’s Tiananmen, . And what sort of Government does Thailand really have?
“In The Nation (21 April 2010) People’s Alliance for Democracy leader Chamlong Srimuang is reported as saying that the government “has no choice but to rein in the red shirts in a speedy and effective manner via law enforcement, otherwise the situation will degenerate into a civil war…”. He chastised the government of Abhisit Vejjajiva for being too slow and not decisive enough.
Chamlong warned that if the government didn’t act, then [his] people would rise up and do it, taking “the law into their hands.” Sounds like 1976, where Chamlong played a shady role in the massacre at Thammasat University.”
Former mercenary Chamlong thinks that it would be all over in “no more than two hours” if the military moved against them. Hang the cost in human lives, for “the risk is worth taking to safeguard the country.” He added that if the government or military didn’t act, the “PAD would step out to restore peace…”, joining “hands with all patriots to safeguard the monarchy…”.
—-
The second is a link to Manit Sriwanichpoom’s provocative pink man series featured previously on NM.
1. Farrelly – point taken about interntet and information, though I would guess that the vast majority of Thai internet usage is for social websites – Hi5, Facebook etc. Also, I notice that many of the default homepages are ASTV/Manager sites – hardly encouraging. Still far from convinced that anything like the majority of Thai internet users do so to broaden political awareness. Very rare to find an urban Thai interested in politics…. (in fact I would argue, counter intuitively at present, that the majority of urban Thais remain deeply apolitical)
2. Ferguson / Warr – you might also have mentioned the bill the Democrats have just passed increasing health care to stateless people. Would have liked some discussion on this and its impact on Shan migrant workers. One of the points that just hasn’t been raised of late is the stuff that the Dems are actually doing in relation to the marginalised/poor… for eg, the huge $ going towards farmer’s debt reduction scheme. Clearly there is an effort to display some kind of ‘performance legitimacy’ in the face of the kinds of issues raised by Red Shirts. Would have loved Warr to have provided some context/analysis on this and how the farmer debt reduction scheme compares dollar-wise with the policies of Thaksin.
3. Overall, some interesting points, though (Walker excepted), all seemed somewhat disengaged from the very ‘hot politics’ consuming the country at present.
StanG, OK, I see, you meant Songkran 2009. Sorry. But my point about government propaganda and censorship of the Red media stands. While of course the Reds have their propaganda the difference is that unlike the government they do not have the ability to close down or severely restrict the message of their opponents. The government’s claims about what happened in Songkran 2009 could only be believed if they did not censor the media.
Further to (14) : You can see that the request by Chavalit and Somchai for an audience with the King to ask that he use his authority to stop the violence has touched a raw nerve, with the Democrat and royalist “big guns” like Anand coming out to criticize the move:
The Democrats often refer to the “mediating” role of the King in May 1992, who, according to the mythology that has been built up since then, put an end to the killing by calling on Suchinda and Chamlong to end their conflict.
It seems that for the Democrats it is OK for the King to come out and use his “moral authority” AFTER a big killing (three days after, actually), but not BEFORE another likely round of killing (likely, since the CRES has declared that the military will be using live rounds).
Should the King refuse to intervene and the military proceeds with a bloody crackdown, after everything that has happened over the last four years, one would have to wonder why the half of the country that supports the Reds or pro-Thaksin parties would see any reason for the Thai monarchy to continue to exist.
(That may be why the crackdown has not yet come, and why the Royal Household Bureau was a little more circumspect in its reaction to Chavalit and Somchai’s request).
Is there an RSS feed for that series of podcasts about Asia? On iTunes it appears that some of the ANU lectures are available as podcasts but the majority of them are not, including this latest one (or if it is I cannot find it). It would be great if they could either create an RSS feed or make all the lectures available via iTunes so people can download them directly into their iPods or mp3 players and listen on the go. Thanks.
Marat JP
Not sure if your being faux, but the answer can be found by googling the demise of King Thaksin 1st. If you’re not up on your history. There have also been attempts to whitewash the accepted version of events in recent years. One wonders why….
An appropriate show tune for all from “The K*** and I” DVD that I purchased from Sanam Luang night bazaar last week.
My joy was tempered somewhat when I got home and was shocked to find it’s a copy made in China! I will be returning it and asking for a refund.
Whenever I feel afraid I hold my head erect
And whistle a happy tune
So no one will suspect
I’m Afraid.
While shivering in my shoes I strike a careless pose
And whistle a happy tune
And no one ever knows I’m afraid.
The result of this deception
Is very strange to tell
For when I fool the people
I fear I fool myself as well!
I whistle a happy tune
And ev’ry single time
The happiness in the tune
Convinces me that I’m not afraid.
Make believe you’re brave
And the trick will take you far.
You may be as brave
As you make believe you are
[…] PPT listened to the podcast of an academic discussion on Thailand’s current crisis posted at New Mandala. Recommended listening. Each person only speaks for a few minutes and some very good points are […]
Maratjp // It’s your internet connection. I suggest you should download and play it locally.
And about the censorship I don’t think that was the way “they”
did If “they” don’t want you to access this file they shut the link.
jothestrong plagiarizes others – Prawase, for example – and then implies that all “Arab” countries ban the drinking of alcohol and that when they do, one can go to jail for several years for doing so. I can’t help thinking the military internet rooms are at work.
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Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
[…] Askew recently wrote an excellent piece for New Mandala on the dangerous situation developing in Bangkok. He also drew attention to the […]
Scenes from Sala Daeng
hmmm… what is displayed in Thai-Benny (2)?
looks like ball bearings for slingshots????
and does the yellow signify PAD/anti-red supporter?
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
It is often difficult for a non-Thai to understand the nuances behind what occurs in Thailand, be it politics or corruption. Clearly Aussie Alumnus does have in-depth understanding and much of the debate on this forum is due to arguments being put forward by well-intentioned people who simply do not understand what he is trying to get across.
For clarity on this impasse I recommend Pasuk & Bakers’ article of 15 April in the Asian Wall Street Journal.
Thailand on the verge
The issue we were discussing was how we can verify what happened during Songkran 2009 (or April 10 2010) when the government controls all the major media outlets and censors or severely restricts the pro-Red media.
It was not about the alleged reasons for the government’s censorship.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Enrico Damanche: welcome back from Burma. You’ve been missed.
Thailand on the verge
Perhaps the government views PTV as a communication tool for red leaders to command their supporters to go to war with the government. It’s mostly life feed from the red stage, isn’t it?
Perhaps you could argue in defense of some universal right to call to war for a just cause, but as far as the state is concerned – that can’t be allowed, especially if reds take control of transmitting facilities by force.
Government order should be challenged in court.
Thailand on the verge – podcast
Maratjp (1) – I sense you know the answer, but if you are not in a position to elaborate: I would think the Reds’ elevation of Taksin (I mean, the king 1767-82) above Chulalongkorn and Bhumibol is meant as a slur on the Chakri dynasty. The Chakris overthrew Taksin in a coup in 1782 and put Taksin to death. Yet, because Taksin is revered as having expelled the Burmese and resurrecting (indeed expanding) the Thai kingdom he cannot be denied his place as a great Thai king. The parallels between Taksin after 1767 and Thaksin after the financial crisis 1997-8, and the fate both suffered (overthrown by a Chakri coup), are striking for historically-minded Reds.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Re : 1973 comparison.
I was in Sanam Luang in 1973 and witnessed the hangings from trees, and one guy repeatedly beating an already dead kid whilst others stood around and watched. How can the army be so cruel, I thought. It wasn’t until years later that I learnt of the involvement also of the ‘village scouts’.
Thammasart students were killed, and those that didn’t escape were rounded up and taken to ‘camps’. Parents grieved missing offspring, and Puey Ungaphorn who had been labeled a communist fled to the UK. Outrage followed and the then prime minister/army commander Thanom, his son Narong, and Praphas also fled from Thailand. More or less overnight the controlled news media turned to free reporting.
So if history is to repeat itself, can we not skip the angst and bloodshed and just accept the end result; better to resign now and let another game start rather than drag this one on until it’s deathly end. Or perhaps the game from 1973 is still ongoing…..albeit over time under different ideological names. And it’s destined to continue until the populace’s vote is unequivocally upheld.
Another historical comparison; is Ratchprasong Thailand’s Tiananmen? There are many parallels, media blackout, tent style encampment in a prestigeous even symbolic part of the capital, (Mao Tse Tung’s image was as always looking down), peaceful demonstrators organising and cooperating amongst themselves, similar demonstrations in other parts of the Country, unequal distribution of GDP, etc. The bloody outcome is well remembered yet it has been purged politically ever since. (Ask a Chinese student nowadays about the Tianamen massacre….eh,eh?. There may be a slight shift though as per this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/world/asia/16china.html
So if indeed any such historical comparison exists, how will Thailand, ‘the land of the free’, address it’s Tiananmen, . And what sort of Government does Thailand really have?
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Two interesting points of reference:
The first is from Thai Political Prisoners http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/chamlong-on-civil-war/:
“In The Nation (21 April 2010) People’s Alliance for Democracy leader Chamlong Srimuang is reported as saying that the government “has no choice but to rein in the red shirts in a speedy and effective manner via law enforcement, otherwise the situation will degenerate into a civil war…”. He chastised the government of Abhisit Vejjajiva for being too slow and not decisive enough.
Chamlong warned that if the government didn’t act, then [his] people would rise up and do it, taking “the law into their hands.” Sounds like 1976, where Chamlong played a shady role in the massacre at Thammasat University.”
Former mercenary Chamlong thinks that it would be all over in “no more than two hours” if the military moved against them. Hang the cost in human lives, for “the risk is worth taking to safeguard the country.” He added that if the government or military didn’t act, the “PAD would step out to restore peace…”, joining “hands with all patriots to safeguard the monarchy…”.
—-
The second is a link to Manit Sriwanichpoom’s provocative pink man series featured previously on NM.
http://www.rama9art.org/manit_s/pink5.html
Thailand on the verge – podcast
A few brief points:
1. Farrelly – point taken about interntet and information, though I would guess that the vast majority of Thai internet usage is for social websites – Hi5, Facebook etc. Also, I notice that many of the default homepages are ASTV/Manager sites – hardly encouraging. Still far from convinced that anything like the majority of Thai internet users do so to broaden political awareness. Very rare to find an urban Thai interested in politics…. (in fact I would argue, counter intuitively at present, that the majority of urban Thais remain deeply apolitical)
2. Ferguson / Warr – you might also have mentioned the bill the Democrats have just passed increasing health care to stateless people. Would have liked some discussion on this and its impact on Shan migrant workers. One of the points that just hasn’t been raised of late is the stuff that the Dems are actually doing in relation to the marginalised/poor… for eg, the huge $ going towards farmer’s debt reduction scheme. Clearly there is an effort to display some kind of ‘performance legitimacy’ in the face of the kinds of issues raised by Red Shirts. Would have loved Warr to have provided some context/analysis on this and how the farmer debt reduction scheme compares dollar-wise with the policies of Thaksin.
3. Overall, some interesting points, though (Walker excepted), all seemed somewhat disengaged from the very ‘hot politics’ consuming the country at present.
Thailand on the verge
StanG, OK, I see, you meant Songkran 2009. Sorry. But my point about government propaganda and censorship of the Red media stands. While of course the Reds have their propaganda the difference is that unlike the government they do not have the ability to close down or severely restrict the message of their opponents. The government’s claims about what happened in Songkran 2009 could only be believed if they did not censor the media.
Ominous signs
Further to (14) : You can see that the request by Chavalit and Somchai for an audience with the King to ask that he use his authority to stop the violence has touched a raw nerve, with the Democrat and royalist “big guns” like Anand coming out to criticize the move:
“р╕Кр╕зр╕Щ-р╕кр╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щ”р╕Йр╕░”р╕Ър╕┤р╣Кр╕Бр╕Ир╕┤р╣Лр╕з-р╕кр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕в”р╕Чр╕│р╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕░р╕кр╕б р╕Фр╕╢р╕З”р╣Гр╕Щр╕лр╕ер╕зр╕З”р╕ер╕Зр╕бр╕▓ р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Юр╕гр╕гр╕Др╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕лр╕вр╕╕р╕Фр╕Ир╕▓р╕Ър╕Ир╣Йр╕зр╕Зр╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1271734401&grpid=no&catid=01
and
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1271855835&grpid=00&catid=
The Democrats often refer to the “mediating” role of the King in May 1992, who, according to the mythology that has been built up since then, put an end to the killing by calling on Suchinda and Chamlong to end their conflict.
It seems that for the Democrats it is OK for the King to come out and use his “moral authority” AFTER a big killing (three days after, actually), but not BEFORE another likely round of killing (likely, since the CRES has declared that the military will be using live rounds).
Should the King refuse to intervene and the military proceeds with a bloody crackdown, after everything that has happened over the last four years, one would have to wonder why the half of the country that supports the Reds or pro-Thaksin parties would see any reason for the Thai monarchy to continue to exist.
(That may be why the crackdown has not yet come, and why the Royal Household Bureau was a little more circumspect in its reaction to Chavalit and Somchai’s request).
Thailand on the verge – podcast
Is there an RSS feed for that series of podcasts about Asia? On iTunes it appears that some of the ANU lectures are available as podcasts but the majority of them are not, including this latest one (or if it is I cannot find it). It would be great if they could either create an RSS feed or make all the lectures available via iTunes so people can download them directly into their iPods or mp3 players and listen on the go. Thanks.
Thailand on the verge – podcast
Marat JP
Not sure if your being faux, but the answer can be found by googling the demise of King Thaksin 1st. If you’re not up on your history. There have also been attempts to whitewash the accepted version of events in recent years. One wonders why….
Food stalls, souvenir stands, handclappers, banners, flags, lines of porta-potties, families
An appropriate show tune for all from “The K*** and I” DVD that I purchased from Sanam Luang night bazaar last week.
My joy was tempered somewhat when I got home and was shocked to find it’s a copy made in China! I will be returning it and asking for a refund.
Whenever I feel afraid I hold my head erect
And whistle a happy tune
So no one will suspect
I’m Afraid.
While shivering in my shoes I strike a careless pose
And whistle a happy tune
And no one ever knows I’m afraid.
The result of this deception
Is very strange to tell
For when I fool the people
I fear I fool myself as well!
I whistle a happy tune
And ev’ry single time
The happiness in the tune
Convinces me that I’m not afraid.
Make believe you’re brave
And the trick will take you far.
You may be as brave
As you make believe you are
Thailand on the verge – podcast
[…] PPT listened to the podcast of an academic discussion on Thailand’s current crisis posted at New Mandala. Recommended listening. Each person only speaks for a few minutes and some very good points are […]
Thailand on the verge – podcast
Maratjp // It’s your internet connection. I suggest you should download and play it locally.
And about the censorship I don’t think that was the way “they”
did If “they” don’t want you to access this file they shut the link.
ABC TV on Thai politics
jothestrong
You claim to speak on behalf of an awful lot of people. Are you sure that’s what they really think? Or just wishful thinking on your part.
ABC TV on Thai politics
jothestrong plagiarizes others – Prawase, for example – and then implies that all “Arab” countries ban the drinking of alcohol and that when they do, one can go to jail for several years for doing so. I can’t help thinking the military internet rooms are at work.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
You are useless. I just sent my demand and I got this: “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” How annoying.