I never stop being amazed with Vichai_N’s talent to twist and distort anything right on the spot ! 😀
(typical fallacy : beating a “straw-man” – attacking totally false premise or a minor, insignificant one)
first of all, you quote me wrong :
” . . . sooner or later it (use of overwhelming force) would have come to this anyway . . .”, wisely said by MediaWar.
here you’re adding your own words to mine, which I have never said !
by it I actually do NOT mean “use of overwhelming force” – but entirely different thing : the state of affairs where PAD enjoy immunity and impunity for ALL their actions, “Democrats” completely rely on PAD’s support and peasants being continuously disenfranchised, vilified, demonized, oppressed (as – shot in head).
so, such state of affairs inevitably results in what I mean by this : “using ANY means in their self-proclaimed goal“. to leave you no any further chance to misinterpret my words, I’ll clarify more : by “their” – I mean PAD’s ! by “self-proclaimed goal” I mean – that they pretend being THE ONLY defenders and self-righteous saviors of nation, etc. – implying / alleging that these things are under some sort of a threat of “terrorists”, as PAD now openly calls red-shirts. why themselves, PAD, are real terrorists – who has occupied Gov. House & 2 international airports (high security objects, which also could endanger safety of thousands of foreign tourists!) – yet NOBODY of PAD so far was as much as even arrested – what to speak persecuted ! however here they are now – shamelessly accusing others of being “terrorists”, as well as demanding gov. & army to commence another bloody crackdown – or else…
or else – PAD themselves will take it in their own hands, use their militant fascist thugs and no doubt, will create some bloody mayhem. (well, not first time for them: as I recall back in Aug/Sep 2008, PAD did kill some red-shirt, beating him to death, during the clash on Ratchadamnoen Nok road)
so, what I was saying is :
taking into consideration the (ruthless & arrogant militant fascist ) tactics used by PAD and their blatant demagoguery “sooner or later it would have come to this (their yesterday’s statement about ultimatum to government & threat to start a CIVIL WAR) anyway”
RE 2nd para of Vichai’s comment about Abhisit – I don’t even want to comment. because Abhisit is NOBODY, a puppet, a figurehead fro publicity, taking orders through Suthep from those behind the curtains and smiling his oh so handsome photogenic face to cameras as some sort of a celebrity from Thai soap operas.
RE 3rd para of Vichai’s comment – now, that’s the most interesting part ! particularly :
“deserve to be put down and put down hard“
should give a credit to Vichai_N – he makes his own position VERY clear ! amazing though that this kind of people have audaciousness to parade in their pink clothes and pretend being for “unity & reconciliation” !
another interesting thing : although here Vichai_N says “any movement …” – I don’t recall him speaking such things while PAD was conducting their criminal terrorist acts
@Hobby
damn, it’s been a long time since I’ve bothered to argue with yellow zombies. quite for a while I simply tried to ignore them – but somehow they have some sort of ability to provoke you to reaction by their flaming and impossibly ridiculous demagoguery ! 😀
anyway, I think I should resume IGNORING Vichai_N as I have been doing already at least 1 year.
Aladdin #12 – you’re exactly right.
The Queen has very foolishly placed the whole monarchy in jeopardy.
She thinks this is October 1976 – when she also stupidly pushed Thailand to civil war.
I’d like to know more about Veera and you seem to know a lot.
Could you give us a general picture of why he was jailed for lese majeste? No need to go into details. Just the general layout of events would be fine.
C’mon Vinai N! We can’t have a discussion if you are going to make things up. Thailand’s history is replete with many instances of violent confrontations and much suffering. For you to insinuate that Thailand was all lovey- dovey until Thaksin was elected is just insane, there is no other word for it. I know you are posting under a Thai name, but the Thailand you describe make me wonder if you have ever lived here or even know that much about the country.
Les Abbey – yes but we have instead censorship of 5,000 or so website and local radio stations, yeah some progress we made. Btw, yes we don’t have the censorship of CNN and BBC but I was thinking that the guy like Abhisit who claimed to be champion of democracy, rule of law, freedom of speech, and etc can actually do better than that. Unlike Abhisit, Thaksin never claimed to be democracy lover in the first place (well, not initially) so the guy is an ass and he showed that he is, at least the man is true to himself.
I have seen the future and it is to be found in Burma!
On Saturday afternoon, 10th of April, most of my family and I boarded a plush jet airliner and left the unbearable heat, humidity and buffalo stench of Bangkok behind. We had been advised to leave the country as the Red Shirts were once again set to ruin the BMA’s meticulously planned Songkram festivities as well as to put a damper on all the meaningless water-splashing that has come to be associated with this traditional (and very marketable) Thai holiday season. My family and other respectable supporters/financiers of the Yellow Shirt Movement were concerned about violence erupting in the capital and infringing upon our peace of mind. Once we arrived to our destination in Burma we all enjoyed a relaxing spa treatment at our five-star resort to calm our agitated nerves and muscles. Overseas travel can be so exhausting despite all the comfort and amenities provided today.
After feasting on a sumptuous Western dinner served by beautiful and gracious Burmese sirens, we all headed over to the veranda to enjoy the cool evening breeze. Words of Kipling were echoing in my mind. The men sat down on elegant rattan chairs with Cuban cigars and French brandy in hand to talk politics and business. The women occupied another section of the veranda and were sipping Earl Grey tea and catching up on the latest amart gossip. It was an idyllic scene until my father-in-law (a retired Thai military intelligence officer) looked up from his mobile phone and with a stern face said, “Gentlemen, I believe we need to go to the lobby and watch some news. The situation in Bangkok is not good”. I and the rest of the group had expected the RTA (under the able generalship of Anupong Paochinda) to have cleared BOTH the Sapan Phan Fa/Ratchadamnoen and Ratchaprasong areas of the Red Shirt mob. Little did we know the full extent of the nose-bleeding the military suffered at the hands of the Red Shirts in the vicinity of Democracy Monument. But we did get to view some clearly doctored video of Red Shirt terrorists being carried away with “bullet” wounds. Does anyone remember the now-famous statement put forth by our esteemed Khun Panitan Watanayakorn, the acting government spokesman, regarding the use of non-lethal force by the RTA on the 10th of April?
Despite my nightmares of a Khmer Rouge-like takeover, it was nice to be in a country where people smile, know their place, and do not agitate for illusory change; it is simply a paradise. In fact, none of us saw anything resembling the gross human rights violations that are reported frequently by the Western media and which malign the reputation of honorable Burmese civil servants and military officials. If one cannot see these “crimes” then it means that they do not exist, right? Oh well, it really doesn’t matter. My wife’s tour company definitely will press ahead and strike up some deals with local hoteliers and politicians and Burma will continue to remain under the benevolent rule of the military (since 1962, mind you). Still, I remember one fine morning on the links and thinking to myself, “Thailand should become more like Burma”. I honestly pray everyday for that moment to arrive; it will set all of us free.
After reading a number of posts from various contributors on this website, I must say that I am astonish to read how off-the-mark the commentaries and observations have been to date. So let me be perfectly clear on this point:
THAILAND HAS NEVER BEEN A DEMOCRACY AND IT NEVER WILL BE A DEMOCRACY.
What we are witnessing is a battle for power, pure and simple. The masses of this country (and I include the pathetic bourgeoisie in this group) are being manipulated and used as cannon fodder (literally) for particular ends. Competing authoritarian factions are involved in a high-stakes poker game and everybody is an expendable pawn. Backroom deals will take place and money will exchange hands. Alliances will be fickle and based on self-interest only. Soldiers and policemen will be thrown into the grinder and mercenaries will be paid for services rendered. The mob will be exhorted to rise from its slumber to avenge the injustice and inequity heaped upon them by the amart. Spectators on the sidelines will cheer their favourite side and jeer their enemies while innocents will suffer the consequences of decisions made by wise men. That is the nature of the beast here in the Land of Smlies. Revolution? Not at all. Where’s the ideology? Civil War? Let’s not be melodramatic. Can you imagine the Bangkok bourgeoisie manning the barricades and risking their materialistic lives for … an idea greater than themselves?
And yet, I find it intriguing that nobody in this forum or any other blog that is covering the events of Thailand today has undertaken a serious study/investigation of that single concept which supposedly people are being called onto the streets to do battle and place their person in harm’s way if need be – DEMOCRACY. What does it mean to the citizens of this country? Can it function properly in this culture and society? Does it have a suitable foundation to rest on? Who will be its greatest advocate and champion?
Ask a Thai commoner to define “democracy” and he or she will give you a deer in the headlights look and then glance over at their friend for the answer. Ask a Thai elite to define “democracy” and he or she immediately reacts like if they have irritable bowel syndrome and then instinctively attempts to explain how democracy operates with “Thai characteristics” (corruption, graft, double standards, collusion, military coups, etc.) So let me be bold and be the first to advocate a return of absolute monarchy for Thailand. It’s the perfect system for it is completely indigenous (as opposed to being a foreign import) and everybody wins!
By the way, all of this talk about the Multicoloured Shirts is just nonsense. These people who attended the “rally” (it was just a big photo-op for the international media to swallow) were given 3,000 baht gift vouchers to go shopping at Central Ladphrai. The catch with the stylish coupons is that the person had to purchase more than 5,000 baht worth of goods from the department store in order for the voucher to be validated. A brilliant scam, I say, and it worked! But what do you expect from the Bangkok middle-class? These apolitical parasites are just shopaholics looking for a quick fix and a reason to pretend to be sophisticated walking around with their blended mocha frappucinos in an air-conditioned mall.
And one last point. Khun Vichai stop citing only one source if you are trying to support your argument. I know that you want to engage fully in the academic debate at hand but your approach reminds me of so many privileged (and brainless) Thai students who attend private universities in this country and pretend to be clever by turning in a research paper with a single reference in their bibliography. I invariably give them an “F” unless they make a reasonable donation of 4,000 baht to the Enrico Damanche Foundation for the Poor.
Aussie Alumnus – again you simply accused Thaksin on something he didn’t even do, it all based on your assumption alone, which is hard to even put up an argument on since its impossible for neither you nor me to know what the man was thinking. Furthermore, as a conscious business people, no one would want to touch organization such as TOT and CAT, not even SHIN or DTAC because those organizations were ridden with corruption and inefficiency, any company that willing to absorb TOT and CAT will be facing with many death-weight and dinosaur like organization that extremely hard to gobble down.
Anyway, the rest of your post was full of ranting, name calling, and accusation. I dont want to start a useless discourse so I will just leave it at that.
Hi everyone in NM, since I’m not a journalist and I have no other way to let other people out side of Thailand know what is going to happen this coming week, I decided to post this info in English here and hope that some foreign journalists would somehow pass by and take a look at what I have to say.
Because of the fail mission last Saturday, the establishment has came up with a more aggressive and more brutal plan for cracking down the red. Replacing Suthep with Anupong to in charge with cracking down the protest, their aim is to find an excuse to discharged Anupong. Now from example from the past, Anupong had never been hard-lined on cracking down protest, so I assume that he will not do anything and got discharged which then he will be replaced by Prayuth, who has been more than willing to stage the crack down (he was responsible for April 2009 and and April 10th crack down). Now, there are two ways they going to do this crack down, first they might go ahead and do it just like that of 10th April, however, this scenario is unlikely since it will tarnish the image of the Thailand further. However, the more likely scenario is that they will stage a play made it out to be that the red had crash with the yellow/pink (similar to those happened in 1976) and they will use that as a condition to initiate a martial law and start the brutal crack down on the red, this is there will not be a mere 20 people killed and 800 injured but the casualties will be in thousand or couple of thousand.
The reason why I posted this on is the give the international communities some situation awareness on what will happen in Bangkok in the next couple of days.
The misdeeds of Thaksin don’t excuse any failings on the part of Abhsit or the palace, you’re right.
But Aussie Alumus is spot on when he states that the powerful and corrupted ON BOTH SIDES are calling, and will continue to call, the shots. I continue to be baffled that all the pro-red posters on this forum continue to harp on about genuine people power and the need to support all these poor and disadvantaged in their worthy battle against the elites, with hardly a mention of the leaders of the UDD movement and what they truly (as opposed to opportunistically represent). The red masses are taking directions from these people don’t forget; the Veeras, Jatuporns, Arismans etc……..those moral, righteous, long-standing champions of true democracy.
Practicing and preaching come to mind in this instance….
JohnH #26 :
You forgot to add the ‘’sincere civility and affability towards each other” of helicopter gunships firing on unarmed demonstrators during the 1973 uprising !
The United States Government is in a very difficult position re. Thailand’s current conflict.
Trying to be honest broker between amataya fuedal capitalism versus Thaksin’s more modern turbo-capitalism.
And seeing this conflict potentially tear apart such a long-standing key strategic ally as Thailand, with likely concomitant increased
Chinese power.
Double standards in the media? Yes, of course, and it is quite right to point out their bias against the UDD demonstrations vis a vis their silence when the PAD was being allowed pretty much free reign.
However, Les Abbey is spot on about that great upholder of democracy Thaksin, a serial abuser and repressor of Thai media freedom if ever there was one (and one of the reasons, among many, why the PAD movement gained momentum in the first place).
But wait! , I hear all you pro-reds cry, the Reds’ cause has moved on from, and become bigger than, Thaksin. Yes, I agree, there is much genuine sentiment amongst the grassroots, but why can’t any of you see that the underlying rules of the game haven’t changed: it’s the same behind-the-scenes power plays and self-serving agendas. Just have a real good look at the characters that are leading the UDD show, but of course, there’s little mention of this amongst the pro-red do-gooders on this forum, as it might expose some ugly truths.
Lets see how far your beloved peoples democracy has advanced, and how much it is really representing and doing for the newly-awakened ‘phrai’ or whatever one wishes to label them as a couple of years from now. It’s those ordinary folk that I feel sorry for, being led up the garden path on behalf of others (who may talk and act a good ‘phrai’ game, but most certainly aren’t when it comes to dishing out the spoils….)
On a positive note, lets hope that some good does come out of this ongoing political mess, in at least broadening people’s education and consciousness about the issues – which may eventually help to move the country forward…..
Aussie Alumnus, it’s hilarious that a report that talks about the repression of the Abhisit government and the appropriateness of royal family habits results in criticisms of Thaksin Shinawatra!
By what calculus of political ethics do the misdeeds of Thaksin excuse Abhisit and the palace from their misdeeds?
WLH (#11) if you were recently at Silom, you must have seen Thailand’s flag-waving welcoming Thai middle-class (the silent majority?) cheering the military/police. I am guessing those red-colored sunglasses darkened your cross-eyed vision even more.
[…] sent photos from the red shirt rally site from the night of 17 April. The images are available at New Mandala, with a couple of examples embedded in this post. These are ordinary photos of ordinary Thai people […]
Yesterday, I nearly gave up participating in this forum as my post did not appear even after 24 hours. Very surprised from the country I used to stay for many years during McMahan/Whitlam govts which should value freedom of expression, 555.
No matter how inefficient TOT, CAT were or are, the fact was and is Thaksin did put in Telecom Tariff to weaken these two state enterprizes, while trying to privatise these two so that Shin Corp could take over as they still held assets of AIS, DTAC, True due to BTO (Build, Transfer, Operate) concessions.
It was plain and simple that Thaksin was bribing elite bureaucrats to gain advantages for AIS and Shin. If your memory was not too short, Gen Sunthorn, former Armed Forces Chief, who presided over 1992 coup, was so rich that when he died, he was reported to have assets worth more than 500 million baht. During the junta rule, AIS and Shin were successful in amending original concession terms. 555
In pantip.com, I have stated that his failed and cheating son (got caught in the exam room red hand) got advertising contract, just because of connection. He was just emulating his father.
Don’t you know that the law prohibits PM, MP, cabinet members to be involved in companies that hold stat concessions? Yet Thaksin ignored this. That was why Telecom law was amended to facilitate his business. That was why he flew to Singapore to conduct his sale to Temasek.
I said Thaksin was powerful and still is. But that does not mean that he is all powerful because one person is more powerful than him, militarywise. But Thaksin is still powerful in enough to finance the red shirts movement.
Do you think Veera (a former Temple boy and a Thai proofreader in newspaper) do it for the poor? For ideology? He milked financiers as much as he could. He left the Democrat party and set up a splinter party financed by a businessman so that he could get his hands for more money. He is just for hire. Look at his mansion (costing more than 30 million baht) and you can know his motive.
He joined Thaksin just for money and for a revenge when he was briefly jailed for his lese majesty remark.
Thailand and other less-developed countries are steeped in corruption for so long. Everybody is corrupted including the military as well. I don’t see the future for my country.
Thaksin is no better than the military+royalists. He is worse in my opinion. Just look about extra-judicial killings during drug war. Just look at grenades are being thrown daily in Bangkok. He is really powerful. Do you think the poor Isan folks can do that?
Once the three UDD leaders say go home, these sheep just go home. It was the case yester-years. It is the case now or in the future.
Dream on if you think the proletariats can rise up agains the corrupted and all powerful establishments whether they are led by greedy businessman or seasoned politicians/military.
I imagine that the Thai’s ”sincere civility and affability towards each other” nor the ”Thai to-live-and-let-live harmony” you note didn’t quite extend to the perpetrators of the massacres in both 1976 and 1992.
Spot on Nganadeeleg . . . except that . . .not all soldiers (whether uniformed in green, red or black) are marksmen. Meaning whether in uniform or out-of, Col. Jeru or Vichai N. could never be safe.
Irrespective of their social station, the Thai people exudes sincere civility and affability towards each other and towards non-Thais, and, past (13) military coups (both successful and abortive) had not dented that Thai to-live-and-let-live harmony. Until Thaksin Shinawatra and The Reds came along, that is.
Thaksin and his Red shirts, with their divisive politics, introduced poisonous deception into their rhetorics . . . the Thai amarts conspiring to keep the Thai phrais in perpetual serfdom. Ridiculous!
And NM and Bangkok Pundit keeps repeating this Thai amart-phrai social fictional divide . . . I must wonder whether they are in cahoots to promote the Thai ‘class war’ theme to save Thaksin’s wealth or hide.
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What next?
I never stop being amazed with Vichai_N’s talent to twist and distort anything right on the spot ! 😀
(typical fallacy : beating a “straw-man” – attacking totally false premise or a minor, insignificant one)
first of all, you quote me wrong :
here you’re adding your own words to mine, which I have never said !
by it I actually do NOT mean “use of overwhelming force” – but entirely different thing : the state of affairs where PAD enjoy immunity and impunity for ALL their actions, “Democrats” completely rely on PAD’s support and peasants being continuously disenfranchised, vilified, demonized, oppressed (as – shot in head).
so, such state of affairs inevitably results in what I mean by this : “using ANY means in their self-proclaimed goal“. to leave you no any further chance to misinterpret my words, I’ll clarify more : by “their” – I mean PAD’s ! by “self-proclaimed goal” I mean – that they pretend being THE ONLY defenders and self-righteous saviors of nation, etc. – implying / alleging that these things are under some sort of a threat of “terrorists”, as PAD now openly calls red-shirts. why themselves, PAD, are real terrorists – who has occupied Gov. House & 2 international airports (high security objects, which also could endanger safety of thousands of foreign tourists!) – yet NOBODY of PAD so far was as much as even arrested – what to speak persecuted ! however here they are now – shamelessly accusing others of being “terrorists”, as well as demanding gov. & army to commence another bloody crackdown – or else…
or else – PAD themselves will take it in their own hands, use their militant fascist thugs and no doubt, will create some bloody mayhem. (well, not first time for them: as I recall back in Aug/Sep 2008, PAD did kill some red-shirt, beating him to death, during the clash on Ratchadamnoen Nok road)
so, what I was saying is :
taking into consideration the (ruthless & arrogant militant fascist ) tactics used by PAD and their blatant demagoguery “sooner or later it would have come to this (their yesterday’s statement about ultimatum to government & threat to start a CIVIL WAR) anyway”
RE 2nd para of Vichai’s comment about Abhisit – I don’t even want to comment. because Abhisit is NOBODY, a puppet, a figurehead fro publicity, taking orders through Suthep from those behind the curtains and smiling his oh so handsome photogenic face to cameras as some sort of a celebrity from Thai soap operas.
RE 3rd para of Vichai’s comment – now, that’s the most interesting part ! particularly :
should give a credit to Vichai_N – he makes his own position VERY clear ! amazing though that this kind of people have audaciousness to parade in their pink clothes and pretend being for “unity & reconciliation” !
another interesting thing : although here Vichai_N says “any movement …” – I don’t recall him speaking such things while PAD was conducting their criminal terrorist acts
@Hobby
damn, it’s been a long time since I’ve bothered to argue with yellow zombies. quite for a while I simply tried to ignore them – but somehow they have some sort of ability to provoke you to reaction by their flaming and impossibly ridiculous demagoguery ! 😀
anyway, I think I should resume IGNORING Vichai_N as I have been doing already at least 1 year.
Ominous signs
Aladdin #12 – you’re exactly right.
The Queen has very foolishly placed the whole monarchy in jeopardy.
She thinks this is October 1976 – when she also stupidly pushed Thailand to civil war.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus,
I’d like to know more about Veera and you seem to know a lot.
Could you give us a general picture of why he was jailed for lese majeste? No need to go into details. Just the general layout of events would be fine.
Thailand on the verge
C’mon Vinai N! We can’t have a discussion if you are going to make things up. Thailand’s history is replete with many instances of violent confrontations and much suffering. For you to insinuate that Thailand was all lovey- dovey until Thaksin was elected is just insane, there is no other word for it. I know you are posting under a Thai name, but the Thailand you describe make me wonder if you have ever lived here or even know that much about the country.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Vichai#43 – oh come off it.
There’s plenty – in fact probably too much – posted by you on this site.
I too have had things not posted. Don’t complain.
An open letter to the Thai media
Les Abbey – yes but we have instead censorship of 5,000 or so website and local radio stations, yeah some progress we made. Btw, yes we don’t have the censorship of CNN and BBC but I was thinking that the guy like Abhisit who claimed to be champion of democracy, rule of law, freedom of speech, and etc can actually do better than that. Unlike Abhisit, Thaksin never claimed to be democracy lover in the first place (well, not initially) so the guy is an ass and he showed that he is, at least the man is true to himself.
What next?
I have seen the future and it is to be found in Burma!
On Saturday afternoon, 10th of April, most of my family and I boarded a plush jet airliner and left the unbearable heat, humidity and buffalo stench of Bangkok behind. We had been advised to leave the country as the Red Shirts were once again set to ruin the BMA’s meticulously planned Songkram festivities as well as to put a damper on all the meaningless water-splashing that has come to be associated with this traditional (and very marketable) Thai holiday season. My family and other respectable supporters/financiers of the Yellow Shirt Movement were concerned about violence erupting in the capital and infringing upon our peace of mind. Once we arrived to our destination in Burma we all enjoyed a relaxing spa treatment at our five-star resort to calm our agitated nerves and muscles. Overseas travel can be so exhausting despite all the comfort and amenities provided today.
After feasting on a sumptuous Western dinner served by beautiful and gracious Burmese sirens, we all headed over to the veranda to enjoy the cool evening breeze. Words of Kipling were echoing in my mind. The men sat down on elegant rattan chairs with Cuban cigars and French brandy in hand to talk politics and business. The women occupied another section of the veranda and were sipping Earl Grey tea and catching up on the latest amart gossip. It was an idyllic scene until my father-in-law (a retired Thai military intelligence officer) looked up from his mobile phone and with a stern face said, “Gentlemen, I believe we need to go to the lobby and watch some news. The situation in Bangkok is not good”. I and the rest of the group had expected the RTA (under the able generalship of Anupong Paochinda) to have cleared BOTH the Sapan Phan Fa/Ratchadamnoen and Ratchaprasong areas of the Red Shirt mob. Little did we know the full extent of the nose-bleeding the military suffered at the hands of the Red Shirts in the vicinity of Democracy Monument. But we did get to view some clearly doctored video of Red Shirt terrorists being carried away with “bullet” wounds. Does anyone remember the now-famous statement put forth by our esteemed Khun Panitan Watanayakorn, the acting government spokesman, regarding the use of non-lethal force by the RTA on the 10th of April?
Despite my nightmares of a Khmer Rouge-like takeover, it was nice to be in a country where people smile, know their place, and do not agitate for illusory change; it is simply a paradise. In fact, none of us saw anything resembling the gross human rights violations that are reported frequently by the Western media and which malign the reputation of honorable Burmese civil servants and military officials. If one cannot see these “crimes” then it means that they do not exist, right? Oh well, it really doesn’t matter. My wife’s tour company definitely will press ahead and strike up some deals with local hoteliers and politicians and Burma will continue to remain under the benevolent rule of the military (since 1962, mind you). Still, I remember one fine morning on the links and thinking to myself, “Thailand should become more like Burma”. I honestly pray everyday for that moment to arrive; it will set all of us free.
After reading a number of posts from various contributors on this website, I must say that I am astonish to read how off-the-mark the commentaries and observations have been to date. So let me be perfectly clear on this point:
THAILAND HAS NEVER BEEN A DEMOCRACY AND IT NEVER WILL BE A DEMOCRACY.
What we are witnessing is a battle for power, pure and simple. The masses of this country (and I include the pathetic bourgeoisie in this group) are being manipulated and used as cannon fodder (literally) for particular ends. Competing authoritarian factions are involved in a high-stakes poker game and everybody is an expendable pawn. Backroom deals will take place and money will exchange hands. Alliances will be fickle and based on self-interest only. Soldiers and policemen will be thrown into the grinder and mercenaries will be paid for services rendered. The mob will be exhorted to rise from its slumber to avenge the injustice and inequity heaped upon them by the amart. Spectators on the sidelines will cheer their favourite side and jeer their enemies while innocents will suffer the consequences of decisions made by wise men. That is the nature of the beast here in the Land of Smlies. Revolution? Not at all. Where’s the ideology? Civil War? Let’s not be melodramatic. Can you imagine the Bangkok bourgeoisie manning the barricades and risking their materialistic lives for … an idea greater than themselves?
And yet, I find it intriguing that nobody in this forum or any other blog that is covering the events of Thailand today has undertaken a serious study/investigation of that single concept which supposedly people are being called onto the streets to do battle and place their person in harm’s way if need be – DEMOCRACY. What does it mean to the citizens of this country? Can it function properly in this culture and society? Does it have a suitable foundation to rest on? Who will be its greatest advocate and champion?
Ask a Thai commoner to define “democracy” and he or she will give you a deer in the headlights look and then glance over at their friend for the answer. Ask a Thai elite to define “democracy” and he or she immediately reacts like if they have irritable bowel syndrome and then instinctively attempts to explain how democracy operates with “Thai characteristics” (corruption, graft, double standards, collusion, military coups, etc.) So let me be bold and be the first to advocate a return of absolute monarchy for Thailand. It’s the perfect system for it is completely indigenous (as opposed to being a foreign import) and everybody wins!
By the way, all of this talk about the Multicoloured Shirts is just nonsense. These people who attended the “rally” (it was just a big photo-op for the international media to swallow) were given 3,000 baht gift vouchers to go shopping at Central Ladphrai. The catch with the stylish coupons is that the person had to purchase more than 5,000 baht worth of goods from the department store in order for the voucher to be validated. A brilliant scam, I say, and it worked! But what do you expect from the Bangkok middle-class? These apolitical parasites are just shopaholics looking for a quick fix and a reason to pretend to be sophisticated walking around with their blended mocha frappucinos in an air-conditioned mall.
And one last point. Khun Vichai stop citing only one source if you are trying to support your argument. I know that you want to engage fully in the academic debate at hand but your approach reminds me of so many privileged (and brainless) Thai students who attend private universities in this country and pretend to be clever by turning in a research paper with a single reference in their bibliography. I invariably give them an “F” unless they make a reasonable donation of 4,000 baht to the Enrico Damanche Foundation for the Poor.
Grazie mille di cuore!
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus – again you simply accused Thaksin on something he didn’t even do, it all based on your assumption alone, which is hard to even put up an argument on since its impossible for neither you nor me to know what the man was thinking. Furthermore, as a conscious business people, no one would want to touch organization such as TOT and CAT, not even SHIN or DTAC because those organizations were ridden with corruption and inefficiency, any company that willing to absorb TOT and CAT will be facing with many death-weight and dinosaur like organization that extremely hard to gobble down.
Anyway, the rest of your post was full of ranting, name calling, and accusation. I dont want to start a useless discourse so I will just leave it at that.
Food stalls, souvenir stands, handclappers, banners, flags, lines of porta-potties, families
Hi everyone in NM, since I’m not a journalist and I have no other way to let other people out side of Thailand know what is going to happen this coming week, I decided to post this info in English here and hope that some foreign journalists would somehow pass by and take a look at what I have to say.
Because of the fail mission last Saturday, the establishment has came up with a more aggressive and more brutal plan for cracking down the red. Replacing Suthep with Anupong to in charge with cracking down the protest, their aim is to find an excuse to discharged Anupong. Now from example from the past, Anupong had never been hard-lined on cracking down protest, so I assume that he will not do anything and got discharged which then he will be replaced by Prayuth, who has been more than willing to stage the crack down (he was responsible for April 2009 and and April 10th crack down). Now, there are two ways they going to do this crack down, first they might go ahead and do it just like that of 10th April, however, this scenario is unlikely since it will tarnish the image of the Thailand further. However, the more likely scenario is that they will stage a play made it out to be that the red had crash with the yellow/pink (similar to those happened in 1976) and they will use that as a condition to initiate a martial law and start the brutal crack down on the red, this is there will not be a mere 20 people killed and 800 injured but the casualties will be in thousand or couple of thousand.
The reason why I posted this on is the give the international communities some situation awareness on what will happen in Bangkok in the next couple of days.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Of Course I’m Anonymous #68 –
The misdeeds of Thaksin don’t excuse any failings on the part of Abhsit or the palace, you’re right.
But Aussie Alumus is spot on when he states that the powerful and corrupted ON BOTH SIDES are calling, and will continue to call, the shots. I continue to be baffled that all the pro-red posters on this forum continue to harp on about genuine people power and the need to support all these poor and disadvantaged in their worthy battle against the elites, with hardly a mention of the leaders of the UDD movement and what they truly (as opposed to opportunistically represent). The red masses are taking directions from these people don’t forget; the Veeras, Jatuporns, Arismans etc……..those moral, righteous, long-standing champions of true democracy.
Practicing and preaching come to mind in this instance….
Thailand on the verge
JohnH #26 :
You forgot to add the ‘’sincere civility and affability towards each other” of helicopter gunships firing on unarmed demonstrators during the 1973 uprising !
Hawaii seminar on the red shirt uprising
The United States Government is in a very difficult position re. Thailand’s current conflict.
Trying to be honest broker between amataya fuedal capitalism versus Thaksin’s more modern turbo-capitalism.
And seeing this conflict potentially tear apart such a long-standing key strategic ally as Thailand, with likely concomitant increased
Chinese power.
An open letter to the Thai media
Double standards in the media? Yes, of course, and it is quite right to point out their bias against the UDD demonstrations vis a vis their silence when the PAD was being allowed pretty much free reign.
However, Les Abbey is spot on about that great upholder of democracy Thaksin, a serial abuser and repressor of Thai media freedom if ever there was one (and one of the reasons, among many, why the PAD movement gained momentum in the first place).
But wait! , I hear all you pro-reds cry, the Reds’ cause has moved on from, and become bigger than, Thaksin. Yes, I agree, there is much genuine sentiment amongst the grassroots, but why can’t any of you see that the underlying rules of the game haven’t changed: it’s the same behind-the-scenes power plays and self-serving agendas. Just have a real good look at the characters that are leading the UDD show, but of course, there’s little mention of this amongst the pro-red do-gooders on this forum, as it might expose some ugly truths.
Lets see how far your beloved peoples democracy has advanced, and how much it is really representing and doing for the newly-awakened ‘phrai’ or whatever one wishes to label them as a couple of years from now. It’s those ordinary folk that I feel sorry for, being led up the garden path on behalf of others (who may talk and act a good ‘phrai’ game, but most certainly aren’t when it comes to dishing out the spoils….)
On a positive note, lets hope that some good does come out of this ongoing political mess, in at least broadening people’s education and consciousness about the issues – which may eventually help to move the country forward…..
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus, it’s hilarious that a report that talks about the repression of the Abhisit government and the appropriateness of royal family habits results in criticisms of Thaksin Shinawatra!
By what calculus of political ethics do the misdeeds of Thaksin excuse Abhisit and the palace from their misdeeds?
Ominous signs
WLH (#11) if you were recently at Silom, you must have seen Thailand’s flag-waving welcoming Thai middle-class (the silent majority?) cheering the military/police. I am guessing those red-colored sunglasses darkened your cross-eyed vision even more.
Food stalls, souvenir stands, handclappers, banners, flags, lines of porta-potties, families
[…] sent photos from the red shirt rally site from the night of 17 April. The images are available at New Mandala, with a couple of examples embedded in this post. These are ordinary photos of ordinary Thai people […]
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Yesterday, I nearly gave up participating in this forum as my post did not appear even after 24 hours. Very surprised from the country I used to stay for many years during McMahan/Whitlam govts which should value freedom of expression, 555.
No matter how inefficient TOT, CAT were or are, the fact was and is Thaksin did put in Telecom Tariff to weaken these two state enterprizes, while trying to privatise these two so that Shin Corp could take over as they still held assets of AIS, DTAC, True due to BTO (Build, Transfer, Operate) concessions.
It was plain and simple that Thaksin was bribing elite bureaucrats to gain advantages for AIS and Shin. If your memory was not too short, Gen Sunthorn, former Armed Forces Chief, who presided over 1992 coup, was so rich that when he died, he was reported to have assets worth more than 500 million baht. During the junta rule, AIS and Shin were successful in amending original concession terms. 555
In pantip.com, I have stated that his failed and cheating son (got caught in the exam room red hand) got advertising contract, just because of connection. He was just emulating his father.
Don’t you know that the law prohibits PM, MP, cabinet members to be involved in companies that hold stat concessions? Yet Thaksin ignored this. That was why Telecom law was amended to facilitate his business. That was why he flew to Singapore to conduct his sale to Temasek.
I said Thaksin was powerful and still is. But that does not mean that he is all powerful because one person is more powerful than him, militarywise. But Thaksin is still powerful in enough to finance the red shirts movement.
Do you think Veera (a former Temple boy and a Thai proofreader in newspaper) do it for the poor? For ideology? He milked financiers as much as he could. He left the Democrat party and set up a splinter party financed by a businessman so that he could get his hands for more money. He is just for hire. Look at his mansion (costing more than 30 million baht) and you can know his motive.
He joined Thaksin just for money and for a revenge when he was briefly jailed for his lese majesty remark.
Thailand and other less-developed countries are steeped in corruption for so long. Everybody is corrupted including the military as well. I don’t see the future for my country.
Thaksin is no better than the military+royalists. He is worse in my opinion. Just look about extra-judicial killings during drug war. Just look at grenades are being thrown daily in Bangkok. He is really powerful. Do you think the poor Isan folks can do that?
Once the three UDD leaders say go home, these sheep just go home. It was the case yester-years. It is the case now or in the future.
Dream on if you think the proletariats can rise up agains the corrupted and all powerful establishments whether they are led by greedy businessman or seasoned politicians/military.
Thailand on the verge
Vichai – 25
I imagine that the Thai’s ”sincere civility and affability towards each other” nor the ”Thai to-live-and-let-live harmony” you note didn’t quite extend to the perpetrators of the massacres in both 1976 and 1992.
Which was, just to remind you, before Thaksin.
What next?
Spot on Nganadeeleg . . . except that . . .not all soldiers (whether uniformed in green, red or black) are marksmen. Meaning whether in uniform or out-of, Col. Jeru or Vichai N. could never be safe.
Thailand on the verge
Bof (#21) and Qualthrough (#24),
Irrespective of their social station, the Thai people exudes sincere civility and affability towards each other and towards non-Thais, and, past (13) military coups (both successful and abortive) had not dented that Thai to-live-and-let-live harmony. Until Thaksin Shinawatra and The Reds came along, that is.
Thaksin and his Red shirts, with their divisive politics, introduced poisonous deception into their rhetorics . . . the Thai amarts conspiring to keep the Thai phrais in perpetual serfdom. Ridiculous!
And NM and Bangkok Pundit keeps repeating this Thai amart-phrai social fictional divide . . . I must wonder whether they are in cahoots to promote the Thai ‘class war’ theme to save Thaksin’s wealth or hide.