Can someone please explain to me just what the “elite” is? If elite is what I believe it is, Thailand must have the largest elite class per head of population than any other country!
If we must keep things very simple for a western audience at least include the middle class in the mix…or aren’t they considered important when there’s a working uprising going on?
It is my feeling that the majority of Thais want a democracy that isn’t governed by protests or down the barrel of a gun, however there are people willing to fight against allowing a politician like Thaksin [Remember those people who protested against the sale of Shin in 2006 or was that too long ago for the western media?], who was found guilty of corruption and failing to disclose his assets when in power, meddled with the media and had a very questionable association with law and order, to run the country.
The only thing that will stop Thaksin from getting back to the top of the heap will be his health. The working class revolution that many media people talk of will end up with an “elite” running the show (Thaksin, his family and cronies) and it will be same same but different. and if you think that Abhisit has a good handle of media control just wait till Thaksin gets back!
PhanFa#7 :
The ultimate outcome is still highly questionable.
If the Red Shirts manage to get their media, especially TV back on – then very likely they’ve won, at least something.
But that has not happened yet.
This current situation could go a lot of different ways.
It’s not your 4-0 Red win.
ABC television, this is all about LM law. You take Harry Nicolaides’case personally and just wait to retaliate. Now we are in our weakness, you just take the opportunity. Mate, you are not a sport man. Harry was a political science lecturer in thailand and he must have known what he can or can’t’. He took his risk but didn’t want to admit. For that, you take on our beloved Monarch. You intend to show the clip of our prince to make people feel they should not be protected by LM. It’s my stupidity begging for your understanding.
The failure of the 1982 and 1985 coups had nothing to do with the King. Coupmakers were defeated by government forces, not turned away at the royal door.
In 2006, on the other hand, coupmakers faced no opposition whatsoever and there were no options to choose from, no challengers, Thaksin conceded, there was no parliament, no senate, and the junta had absolute de-facto power which the King acknowledged.
I remember two pieces of legislation that didn’t pass through royal secretary in Thaksin’s time, but that was due to sloppy, error ridden presentation, not the royal opposition or interference.
Another, related thought – the coup and the “judicial revolution” were bloodless and relatively painless methods to depose Thaksin. His fight back, however, is anything but.
Just imagine how much blood would have been spilled if he was directing this fight from inside the country and from position of total control.
I once wrote a review of the book Is Australia An Asian Country ? written by Stephen Fitzgerald, who was Gough Whitlam’s – and Australia’s – first ambassador to the People Republic of China.
Fitzgerald wrote his book in part as a retort to the ridiculous Pauline Hanson.
At the time I wrote my review I thought it would take about a generation or two at most for Australia to become integrated with Asia. Clearly most Australians were not going to go with Hanson.
Now – in t he light of what is happening in Thailand, and especially in relation to many of the comments above on this post – I think such integration is more likely to take three or four generations.
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or a Thai national to come to the conclusion, judging from events in the past few days, that the reds are having the upper hand.
If you like soccer, you can say the reds are leading at least 4-0 against Abhisit/Suthep team in this match, as can be seen when they easily seized Thaicom station, the military failed to disperse them despite significant losses, they failed to arrest Arisman, and the EC’s recommendation to dissolve the Democrat party.
After half-time rest, the losing team is expected to play rough — they will hit the other side’s players, not the ball. Their supporters will also go into the field and beat up the winning team.
-with their total absence of any apparent memory stretching only a few months…
Peter, this memory thing can be funny can’t it? Let’s all go back to 1992 with the pro-democracy protesters in the streets. The local TV is censored, but hang on, now we had IBC, a satellite TV provider giving us access to the BBC and CNN, so we can at least get the reports that the world is seeing. Great, except the owner of IBC pulled the plug every time the news channels mentioned Thailand. Now who was that man doing the Generals bidding?
Hang on, wasn’t that man Thaksin Shinawatra, the great protector of Thai democracy, the leader of the have-nots in the class war? Funny old world isn’t it, eighteen years on and Thaksin and Chamlong are opposite sides again?
‘#32 Now the socialist Gennie is out of the bottle and Thai elite has to allow the existence of at least a centre-left organization similar to the Australian Labor Party in their main stream politics.
So, rather than as the Thaksin’s stooges, will the red-shirts’ leadership, especially the left-leaning leaders, take the challenge and establish themselves as a mainstream political force like ALP in Australia?”
Strange , but have you ever heard any of them mention socialism. They don’t lean left so much as lean on a convenient income stream.
All the above comments about the Thai media are very valid. There’s just one small thing you have all overlooked. There is nothing in the slightest bit transparent about either set of succession terrorists.
If both have a bad rep, it is more than partly because they too are engaged in the constant lies and dirty tricks that typify Thai politics. Small wonder really. Most of the movers and shakers of these two movements had the formative years of their misspent middle-age acting as hatchet men for mainstream politicians. That is, once they had figured that there wasn’t much personal profit in being a Thai communist.
Don’t you even know that many old communists, in areas like Nakhon Sri Thammarat, have long been the actual votebuyers for mainsteam candidates? And yes, that job does involve assassinating anyone who runs contrary to what their mainstream masters want. I have met the bereathed relatives of people who were murdered by these so-called idealogues. A lot of the hate against the shirt people is precisely because many of them have previously been enforcers for mainstream politicians. Revenge is a strong, and corrosive, emotion.
Indeed, is there any evidence that they aren’t still engaged in this dirty work? Especially now that such opportunists are gearing up for the succession. The former financiers of the redshirts are far from being history just yet – contrary to some recent rather desperate comments from the wannabe revolutionaries hereabouts. Traditional machiavellian Thai politics is very much still alive & kicking in the shirt movements. There’s nothing new in any of this, apart from the sense of urgency brought on by the fast-approaching old-age of both the institution and its weak successor.
Agreed that the media here is useless. But look at the bigger picture. Do you really think a better press will come into existence as long as there are politicians out there who will try to destroy anything that gets in their way? Had it ever occurred to you that Thaksin spent most of his term intimidating any media that showed any independence. These things you seem to have forgotten. Why have you forgotten?
While you are at it, you might want to hope for a better electorate as well. That is until you eventually remember that they too are constantly intimidated by the politicians, the uniforms, the poo -yais, the mafias, the unscrupulous businessmen and …… in more recent times by the goon squads of the color-coded succession terrorists.
Pretty infertile ground for a successful revolution if you ask me. Fertile ground for a vicious civil war with no winners, however.
I think the latest news about PAD’s declaring their ultimatum to gov (“smash red-shirts – or we’ll start civil war!” – read Bkk Post and Thanong’s blog on Nation) now gives pretty clear sign of “what’s next”. most likely army will use it in the same way as they already did back in 2006 – “to prevent violence”.
I have no doubt that PADscists will be used too, as in Apr 2009.
Suriyasai in TV interview even said : “situation now is like in Oct 1976” – implying that red-shirts are terrorists (students then) and PAD and other “chameleons” / “no color” are righteous saviors of nation and other revered values. and of course, this purposeful and open mentioning of Oct 1976 hints on using ANY means in their self-proclaimed goal.
scary stuff.
but then – sooner or later it would have come to this anyway, couldn’t be otherwise, with blatantly fascist movement playing a role of watchdog / gendarme, and REPEATEDLY nullifying elections’ results and inflaming antagonism in society, openly despising and demonizing their “lessers”.
Ed #34
Re :
“The Australian mass media seems to believe that Thaksin’s leading a working class revolution”.
Not only Australia’s “mass” media – see also Greg Sheridan’s article last weekend.
Sheridan writes for Murdoch’s elite, small circulation The Australian newspaper.
Vichan N, can Thais do better than making guesses at the moment?
I think Tyrell Haberkorn, Nicholas Farrapong, Jane Fergitip, Peter Jackuporn, Craig Reynochob, Andrew Walikorn and Peter Warcharapol are all fairly Thai. Pretty unquestionable and hi-so at ANU.
Maratjp, how about writing down some good questions here to make it less boring?
Hope some people from the Thai embassy show up. Everything’s coated in sugar.
Ralph#7 – we’ve disagreed in the past, but I could n’t agree with you more on this.
I wonder what American influence there still is at The Post ?
It was decades ago established by an American woman, who had set up Thailand’s first fresh water bottle company.
Her husband was later revealed as a CIA agent. Today The Post seems largely run by Sino-Thais, with the most prestigous Thai and overseas qualifications imaginable.
The Board however, still seems almost exclusively Sino-Thai.
good grief, what a mess dear old Sondhi Lim, of bankruptcy and royal affairs fame, has made of your mind…
briefly…
are you aware that the telecommunications industry around the world was in dramatic growth and flux… Thaksin was positioning the industry in Thailand to best match these forces for the benefit of Thailand… the other telecoms players in fact gained market share relative to Shin/AIS and Shin did much worse on the SET than the banks for example… you are just hung up trying to answer your assumption that there must have been some hidden personal gain he was angling for… lift that assumption it will all get clearer for you
are you saying that because the reds are poor then if Thaksin dies that will solve the problem because they will all have to go back home and forget their aspirations?
btw… the reds live rough and cheaply, dont imagine there is luxury sleeping on the streets, and even though below your standards they are self-funding!
Thaksin was toppled because he challenged the power of the military, he tried to bring them under control of the democratically elected government, which is where they should be! He reduced their insane budget and interfered in their sacred reshuffle which is what any future government will have to do.
The military must be brought under control. Reduce the number of generals, no involvement in business and no impunity for crimes committed inside Thailand.
It is a very big challenge and the Thais need a very strong and committed leader to drag Thailand into a stable, productive democratic state from the near failed Burma-like situation its in now.
I dont know if Thaksin is the right leader again or not, but the Thai people need to make a very wise choice!
Vichai N #3 :
Re :” all foreigners (Australians??) claiming expertise on Thailand issues . . . but all just making educated/uneducated”
You should not be making insulting remarks about these highly respected academics, world leaders in their respective fields, from a highly prestigous university.
You are revealing yourself as uneducated.
1) All quite valid points, especially about the double standards concerning the PAD. According to Bangkok Post, the PAD vowed to “come out” in 15 days to “protect the country” if the government doesn’t. http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/175036/yellows-may-show-up-in-15-days
This is a really scary prospect, and brings Thailand closer to a state of civil war.
2) One problem with the open letter is that it does not address the fact that parts of the redshirts are obviously armed as well. There is no mentioning of who killed the four soldiers.
Did they publish their statement regarding the dead and injured army personell somewhere else? I might have overlooked it.
”Your moral standards bear no civilized considerations therefore give you no right to deliver anybody any meaningful comments.”
Yes, moral standards, now that’s a good point.
Tell me how the moral standards of some (many?) in Thailand, for example, allow the extra-judicial killings and serious assaults by the the so-called police authorities to go on unchecked and unpunished.
Or, for that matter, would you care to explain how you square your imagined moral rectitude of the Thai people with the very real and endemic corruption that Thailand is (actually) known for?
Jothestrong#53 :
Re :
1) “Your program just had to be aired right on the 13th., our Songkran New Year celebration when we hoped for a small space to breath in. You could not wait a few days for us to settle that you had to pile such comments on top of what we already had.”
a)Unfortunately news (as distinct from propaganda) can not wait a week for a good story, by which time public interest may have died.
b)Australian media have long neglected facts about Thailand which should have been reported, to better inform Australia’s public.
2)”If you still consider yourself as one of our friends, then you are WRONG, DEAD WRONG, because you, Aussie, have no sense of decent manners [which represent your historical background].
Your moral standards bear no civilized considerations therefore give you no right to deliver anybody any meaningful comments.
What was “civilised” about Thai behaviour during the recent crackdown ?
3)”We have lived through good and bad and I don’t think you have, in our history, contributed much positives”.
Australia’s taxpayers have contributed billions of dollars in aid to Thailand over many, many decades, helping to lift Thailand from being one of the world’ poorest countries.
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Statement by students and academics at ANU
Can someone please explain to me just what the “elite” is? If elite is what I believe it is, Thailand must have the largest elite class per head of population than any other country!
If we must keep things very simple for a western audience at least include the middle class in the mix…or aren’t they considered important when there’s a working uprising going on?
It is my feeling that the majority of Thais want a democracy that isn’t governed by protests or down the barrel of a gun, however there are people willing to fight against allowing a politician like Thaksin [Remember those people who protested against the sale of Shin in 2006 or was that too long ago for the western media?], who was found guilty of corruption and failing to disclose his assets when in power, meddled with the media and had a very questionable association with law and order, to run the country.
The only thing that will stop Thaksin from getting back to the top of the heap will be his health. The working class revolution that many media people talk of will end up with an “elite” running the show (Thaksin, his family and cronies) and it will be same same but different. and if you think that Abhisit has a good handle of media control just wait till Thaksin gets back!
Thailand on the verge
PhanFa#7 :
The ultimate outcome is still highly questionable.
If the Red Shirts manage to get their media, especially TV back on – then very likely they’ve won, at least something.
But that has not happened yet.
This current situation could go a lot of different ways.
It’s not your 4-0 Red win.
ABC TV on Thai politics
ABC television, this is all about LM law. You take Harry Nicolaides’case personally and just wait to retaliate. Now we are in our weakness, you just take the opportunity. Mate, you are not a sport man. Harry was a political science lecturer in thailand and he must have known what he can or can’t’. He took his risk but didn’t want to admit. For that, you take on our beloved Monarch. You intend to show the clip of our prince to make people feel they should not be protected by LM. It’s my stupidity begging for your understanding.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
The failure of the 1982 and 1985 coups had nothing to do with the King. Coupmakers were defeated by government forces, not turned away at the royal door.
In 2006, on the other hand, coupmakers faced no opposition whatsoever and there were no options to choose from, no challengers, Thaksin conceded, there was no parliament, no senate, and the junta had absolute de-facto power which the King acknowledged.
I remember two pieces of legislation that didn’t pass through royal secretary in Thaksin’s time, but that was due to sloppy, error ridden presentation, not the royal opposition or interference.
Another, related thought – the coup and the “judicial revolution” were bloodless and relatively painless methods to depose Thaksin. His fight back, however, is anything but.
Just imagine how much blood would have been spilled if he was directing this fight from inside the country and from position of total control.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
I once wrote a review of the book Is Australia An Asian Country ? written by Stephen Fitzgerald, who was Gough Whitlam’s – and Australia’s – first ambassador to the People Republic of China.
Fitzgerald wrote his book in part as a retort to the ridiculous Pauline Hanson.
At the time I wrote my review I thought it would take about a generation or two at most for Australia to become integrated with Asia. Clearly most Australians were not going to go with Hanson.
Now – in t he light of what is happening in Thailand, and especially in relation to many of the comments above on this post – I think such integration is more likely to take three or four generations.
Thailand on the verge
I do hope you’ll make recordings of this event freely available. Audio will be enough. And transcripts of at least the keynotes.
Thailand on the verge
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist or a Thai national to come to the conclusion, judging from events in the past few days, that the reds are having the upper hand.
If you like soccer, you can say the reds are leading at least 4-0 against Abhisit/Suthep team in this match, as can be seen when they easily seized Thaicom station, the military failed to disperse them despite significant losses, they failed to arrest Arisman, and the EC’s recommendation to dissolve the Democrat party.
After half-time rest, the losing team is expected to play rough — they will hit the other side’s players, not the ball. Their supporters will also go into the field and beat up the winning team.
An open letter to the Thai media
-with their total absence of any apparent memory stretching only a few months…
Peter, this memory thing can be funny can’t it? Let’s all go back to 1992 with the pro-democracy protesters in the streets. The local TV is censored, but hang on, now we had IBC, a satellite TV provider giving us access to the BBC and CNN, so we can at least get the reports that the world is seeing. Great, except the owner of IBC pulled the plug every time the news channels mentioned Thailand. Now who was that man doing the Generals bidding?
Hang on, wasn’t that man Thaksin Shinawatra, the great protector of Thai democracy, the leader of the have-nots in the class war? Funny old world isn’t it, eighteen years on and Thaksin and Chamlong are opposite sides again?
Statement by students and academics at ANU
‘#32 Now the socialist Gennie is out of the bottle and Thai elite has to allow the existence of at least a centre-left organization similar to the Australian Labor Party in their main stream politics.
So, rather than as the Thaksin’s stooges, will the red-shirts’ leadership, especially the left-leaning leaders, take the challenge and establish themselves as a mainstream political force like ALP in Australia?”
Strange , but have you ever heard any of them mention socialism. They don’t lean left so much as lean on a convenient income stream.
An open letter to the Thai media
All the above comments about the Thai media are very valid. There’s just one small thing you have all overlooked. There is nothing in the slightest bit transparent about either set of succession terrorists.
If both have a bad rep, it is more than partly because they too are engaged in the constant lies and dirty tricks that typify Thai politics. Small wonder really. Most of the movers and shakers of these two movements had the formative years of their misspent middle-age acting as hatchet men for mainstream politicians. That is, once they had figured that there wasn’t much personal profit in being a Thai communist.
Don’t you even know that many old communists, in areas like Nakhon Sri Thammarat, have long been the actual votebuyers for mainsteam candidates? And yes, that job does involve assassinating anyone who runs contrary to what their mainstream masters want. I have met the bereathed relatives of people who were murdered by these so-called idealogues. A lot of the hate against the shirt people is precisely because many of them have previously been enforcers for mainstream politicians. Revenge is a strong, and corrosive, emotion.
Indeed, is there any evidence that they aren’t still engaged in this dirty work? Especially now that such opportunists are gearing up for the succession. The former financiers of the redshirts are far from being history just yet – contrary to some recent rather desperate comments from the wannabe revolutionaries hereabouts. Traditional machiavellian Thai politics is very much still alive & kicking in the shirt movements. There’s nothing new in any of this, apart from the sense of urgency brought on by the fast-approaching old-age of both the institution and its weak successor.
Agreed that the media here is useless. But look at the bigger picture. Do you really think a better press will come into existence as long as there are politicians out there who will try to destroy anything that gets in their way? Had it ever occurred to you that Thaksin spent most of his term intimidating any media that showed any independence. These things you seem to have forgotten. Why have you forgotten?
While you are at it, you might want to hope for a better electorate as well. That is until you eventually remember that they too are constantly intimidated by the politicians, the uniforms, the poo -yais, the mafias, the unscrupulous businessmen and …… in more recent times by the goon squads of the color-coded succession terrorists.
Pretty infertile ground for a successful revolution if you ask me. Fertile ground for a vicious civil war with no winners, however.
What next?
I think the latest news about PAD’s declaring their ultimatum to gov (“smash red-shirts – or we’ll start civil war!” – read Bkk Post and Thanong’s blog on Nation) now gives pretty clear sign of “what’s next”. most likely army will use it in the same way as they already did back in 2006 – “to prevent violence”.
I have no doubt that PADscists will be used too, as in Apr 2009.
Suriyasai in TV interview even said : “situation now is like in Oct 1976” – implying that red-shirts are terrorists (students then) and PAD and other “chameleons” / “no color” are righteous saviors of nation and other revered values. and of course, this purposeful and open mentioning of Oct 1976 hints on using ANY means in their self-proclaimed goal.
scary stuff.
but then – sooner or later it would have come to this anyway, couldn’t be otherwise, with blatantly fascist movement playing a role of watchdog / gendarme, and REPEATEDLY nullifying elections’ results and inflaming antagonism in society, openly despising and demonizing their “lessers”.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Ed #34
Re :
“The Australian mass media seems to believe that Thaksin’s leading a working class revolution”.
Not only Australia’s “mass” media – see also Greg Sheridan’s article last weekend.
Sheridan writes for Murdoch’s elite, small circulation The Australian newspaper.
Thailand on the verge
Vichan N, can Thais do better than making guesses at the moment?
I think Tyrell Haberkorn, Nicholas Farrapong, Jane Fergitip, Peter Jackuporn, Craig Reynochob, Andrew Walikorn and Peter Warcharapol are all fairly Thai. Pretty unquestionable and hi-so at ANU.
Maratjp, how about writing down some good questions here to make it less boring?
Hope some people from the Thai embassy show up. Everything’s coated in sugar.
An open letter to the Thai media
Ralph#7 – we’ve disagreed in the past, but I could n’t agree with you more on this.
I wonder what American influence there still is at The Post ?
It was decades ago established by an American woman, who had set up Thailand’s first fresh water bottle company.
Her husband was later revealed as a CIA agent. Today The Post seems largely run by Sino-Thais, with the most prestigous Thai and overseas qualifications imaginable.
The Board however, still seems almost exclusively Sino-Thai.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie alumnus…
good grief, what a mess dear old Sondhi Lim, of bankruptcy and royal affairs fame, has made of your mind…
briefly…
are you aware that the telecommunications industry around the world was in dramatic growth and flux… Thaksin was positioning the industry in Thailand to best match these forces for the benefit of Thailand… the other telecoms players in fact gained market share relative to Shin/AIS and Shin did much worse on the SET than the banks for example… you are just hung up trying to answer your assumption that there must have been some hidden personal gain he was angling for… lift that assumption it will all get clearer for you
are you saying that because the reds are poor then if Thaksin dies that will solve the problem because they will all have to go back home and forget their aspirations?
btw… the reds live rough and cheaply, dont imagine there is luxury sleeping on the streets, and even though below your standards they are self-funding!
Thaksin was toppled because he challenged the power of the military, he tried to bring them under control of the democratically elected government, which is where they should be! He reduced their insane budget and interfered in their sacred reshuffle which is what any future government will have to do.
The military must be brought under control. Reduce the number of generals, no involvement in business and no impunity for crimes committed inside Thailand.
It is a very big challenge and the Thais need a very strong and committed leader to drag Thailand into a stable, productive democratic state from the near failed Burma-like situation its in now.
I dont know if Thaksin is the right leader again or not, but the Thai people need to make a very wise choice!
Thailand on the verge
Vichai N #3 :
Re :” all foreigners (Australians??) claiming expertise on Thailand issues . . . but all just making educated/uneducated”
You should not be making insulting remarks about these highly respected academics, world leaders in their respective fields, from a highly prestigous university.
You are revealing yourself as uneducated.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
This documentary make The Australian Broadcasting Corporation look like tabloid newspaper.
An open letter to the Thai media
1) All quite valid points, especially about the double standards concerning the PAD. According to Bangkok Post, the PAD vowed to “come out” in 15 days to “protect the country” if the government doesn’t.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/175036/yellows-may-show-up-in-15-days
This is a really scary prospect, and brings Thailand closer to a state of civil war.
2) One problem with the open letter is that it does not address the fact that parts of the redshirts are obviously armed as well. There is no mentioning of who killed the four soldiers.
Did they publish their statement regarding the dead and injured army personell somewhere else? I might have overlooked it.
ABC TV on Thai politics
Jothestrong – 53
”Your moral standards bear no civilized considerations therefore give you no right to deliver anybody any meaningful comments.”
Yes, moral standards, now that’s a good point.
Tell me how the moral standards of some (many?) in Thailand, for example, allow the extra-judicial killings and serious assaults by the the so-called police authorities to go on unchecked and unpunished.
Or, for that matter, would you care to explain how you square your imagined moral rectitude of the Thai people with the very real and endemic corruption that Thailand is (actually) known for?
I await your meaningful comments.
ABC TV on Thai politics
Jothestrong#53 :
Re :
1) “Your program just had to be aired right on the 13th., our Songkran New Year celebration when we hoped for a small space to breath in. You could not wait a few days for us to settle that you had to pile such comments on top of what we already had.”
a)Unfortunately news (as distinct from propaganda) can not wait a week for a good story, by which time public interest may have died.
b)Australian media have long neglected facts about Thailand which should have been reported, to better inform Australia’s public.
2)”If you still consider yourself as one of our friends, then you are WRONG, DEAD WRONG, because you, Aussie, have no sense of decent manners [which represent your historical background].
Your moral standards bear no civilized considerations therefore give you no right to deliver anybody any meaningful comments.
What was “civilised” about Thai behaviour during the recent crackdown ?
3)”We have lived through good and bad and I don’t think you have, in our history, contributed much positives”.
Australia’s taxpayers have contributed billions of dollars in aid to Thailand over many, many decades, helping to lift Thailand from being one of the world’ poorest countries.