It seems to me that the central part of Thaksin’s strategy now is to draw the monarchy out into the open and to totally destroy its legitimacy – as the royalists have attempted to destroy that of Thaksin since 2005-2006.
One just has to consider for a while and ask oneself how the half of the country that supports the Red Shirts feels about “the Queen’s Guard” massacring Red Shirts on 10 April, and the Queen turning up at the hospital the next day to comfort her injured soldiers and mourn the loss of one of the key officers involved in the bloody April 2009 operation (which many Reds believed led to a large number of deaths).
So, if, after having been asked by Chavalit and Somchai (Thaksin’s “nominees”), the King DOESN’T step in to prevent more killings, and Abhisit orders “the Queen’s Guard” to go in and commit a massacre of Red Shirts, what will the Red Shirts (and much of the country (and the “international community”) think of the King and Queen, who were asked to step in and prevent Thais from being slaughtered…. but didn’t?
THIS is the way to destroy the monarchy….
You can’t say they were not given a chance to compromise.
The news lately has been pretty grim here, but I want to think Vinai N for the comic relief in stating that Thailand was in harmony with itself prior to Thaksin. ROTFLO! Special note to Khun Vinai: Attacking the schools that people went to or work at, or their nationality is indicative of someone who doesn’t really have much of an argument to make. I believe the technical term for that is ‘argumentum ad hominem’, but I suspect you already know that.
It is shameful for the current Thai government to rule the country against people’s will and it is even immoral to either lie people or prevent people from knowing what’s happening in their country. Today’s Thailand is no difference from Burma. Without reconciliatory process, the current political wound in Thailand can never be healed.
Lets look on the bright side: – A thinning in the ranks of Colonels & Generals might be a good thing for getting the top heavy Thai military back in shape 🙂
Why do we see year on year the village residents of the same flood prone districts in Thailand waiting so patiently for the delivery of relief supplies from various royal or government agencies?
Why is corruption so rife, and why do Thai people accept it so meekly and do nothing about it?
Why should Thai people pay tea money to a school so their children can get a mediocre education?
Why am I asking these questions when I am not Thai?
Can I put two very important questions to the panellists?
(i) If Abhisit orders the military to take action against the Red Shirts which results in a massacre tonight or in the next few days, is there any possibility of having murder charges laid against him at the International Criminal Court?
(ii) If “the Queens Guard” is once again ordered onto the streets to fire on unarmed Red Shirt protesters is there any chance of having murder charges laid against the Queen of Thailand?
Elite forces from all three branches of the armed forces and police are being mobilised to carry out operations to remove red-shirt demonstrators from the Rajprasong intersection in Bangkok.
The rules of engagement are modelled on an emergency plan after 2003 when the Thai embassy and businesses run by Thai firms in Phnom Penh were burnt down by a rowdy mob.
Thailand was reportedly ready to go to war with Cambodia, with combat units readied and F-16 fighters put on standby for possible aerial attacks.
On Saturday evening, Army commander General Anupong Paochinda called a meeting of military commandants, the chief of staff and the acting police commander to discuss operational readiness of all units involved.
The meeting agreed that the military would no longer tolerate armed terrorists blending in with red-shirt mobs in Bangkok.
Army units to be used are capable of “special operations”. They include Task Force 90 – a heli-borne infantry assault unit, the 31 Infantry Regiment and red-bereted Army special operations forces. The Navy would dispatch their US-trained SEAL commandos and the Marines Force Recon strike force.
The Air Force will rely on their special operations commandos while the police would dispatch 191 SWAT commandos, anti-terrorism Arintharaj Force and paratroopers.
A joint intelligence report concluded that the armed men were recruited from three groups of people: separatists in the South, mercenaries from neighbouring countries, and paramilitary men trained by active officers allied with the red shirts.
Whatever sources they are from, the prime objective of the coming operations is to deal with the “armed third force”, coupled with red-shirt masses travelling to Bangkok from Monday to Wednesday.
All tall buildings nearby Rajprasong intersection are now manned by security officials.
What remains to be seen is whether these units will accomplish their mission – neutralising the armed terrorists, in line with a recently concluded hard-line determination by the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation.
Accords precisely with my experience. I have been to Ratchaprasong just about every day for a week.
What I have not seen: terrorists, gunmen, villains nor any villainy.
What I have seen: a lot of people who believe they deserve a better deal from the people at the top of the Thai food chain. Without exception they have seemed good-natured but firm, pleasant but determined. Non-violent and touchingly welcoming of me as a foreigner.
What I have heard: if the King and the Palace depend on these people for their future security then they have a problem and it is getting bigger by the day. If Abhisit or Prem hope to have a home in Thailand after this is over, then they are in for some unpleasant news.
What I have not heard: Sedition, treason, threats, anger.
What I believe: having had considerable exposure to the hi-so amart set in Thailand and the people at the ‘grass-roots’ level, if I have a choice whom I will live with and count as my neighbours, then they will be wearing red shirts. No, I am not naive enough to think everything is rosy and everyone with a red shirt is a good guy, but insofar as I am concerned, I see nothing here that the government can honestly say is a threat to anything but the very narrow interests of it and its supporters.
Arthurson – surely you must have some perception of “the laws of ‘reality’ economics”? Do you know that starting wages in Thailand for overseas graduates in engineering or business administration, with master’s degrees from well-known ivy league American universities are at around Baht 35,000 – Baht 45,000? And these are from well-established foreign-owned (American), not Thai-owned, companies.
The law of reality economics dictate the pay level for menial and very-skilled workers in Thailand, India, Philippines, China . . . to name a few. I don’t think ‘Thai elites’ had any say on what industrial wages should be in Thailand.
But if those who Red Shirts feel that (a) minimum wages and (b) village education standards should be raised . . . then why don’t they rally for these grievances which are understandable and sympathy-deserving. But instead those incoherent half-educated trio of Thai demagogues Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut . . . go on and inflame these gullible and very vulnerable buffaloes, if you’ll pardon the expression, ‘to burn the Thai house’ down!
Tarrin still owes me some educational mentoring on what he meant by ‘class struggle’ and ‘political revolution’ in the current Thai Red shirts protests.
There is nothing personal about history because what happened is already happened you can not intrepid any other way around except you can analyze the intention of why people made those decision in the past.
What I said was the fact, the NawaPol and Red Gaurs were the anti-student movement (fact) they took part in the student crack down of 6th October (fact), none of them got arrest or charge (fact) one of them became prime minister later on (fact) the communist community was split (fact). A large part of the NawaPol/Red Gaurs were made up of the ultra right-wing of the society, same with the Yellow/Pink (fact)
More on the side note, Samak was elected but Tanin Kraivichien came trough power via a Coup Detat.
As you can see, there’s nothing personal about my statement.
Moreover, the rule of thumb for every historian is, history was only written by whoever win the war. I will wait until you came up with some concrete evidences, since like many Yellow leaning right-wing fanatic here, most of you people fail to even produce something convincing.
This seminar would be a lot more interesting if some Thai academics were on it, but they are not on it because they do not have the academic freedom that Western academics enjoy. It’s that simple. There isn’t a “farang” among us who wouldn’t love to have a top rate Thai academic speak to the world community either supporting the Reds or not supporting them. Unfortunately if they ever spoke out and criticized the magnificent Oz they would be ostracized and cast away from their country/family/culture.
To those posters who try to discredit this “no name” university I would say that this is a classic example of how the amataya in Thailand, as well as in every other country, try to control people and maintain their own status. Where do you think many of these top academics are recruited from to go and teach at citadels like Harvard and Oxford? They make their names from great research/books written at “no name” universities. Excellence and mediocrity exist everywhere, even at Harvard and Oxford. George W. Bush went to Harvard. Abraham Lincoln never went to college, and Bill Gates dropped out as well as Larry Elison, the CEO of Oracle. (Sorry for the American references, but I am from the US.)
Questions/issues for the seminar?
1. What is the role of a foreign press with another nation’s politics? Are there things foreigners see in ourselves/country that we don’t see because we are too close to our problems? (For example, has anyone ever been able to describe the United States better than de Tocqueville? A Frenchman.)
2. To what extent has the Thai government excised the Thai people’s contribution to the development of Thailand in the media and in the official history taught in schools? How many monuments to the people are there in Thailand? What place does Pridi Banomyong, the Father of Thai Democracy, play in the political indoctrination of Thai students? How many statues are there of him in Thailand? How much time is given to King Rama VII’s rising to greet the People’s Party instead of requiring his subjects to prostrate themselves in front of their King? Why is this moment so revolutionary in Thai history? Why does this king insist that his subjects prostrate themselves in front of him when Chulalongkorn did away with it back in the 19th century?
3. Why do Thai citizens elevate their king to a God status when Lord Buddha himself denied the existence of a God? If the Buddha could humbly ask his followers to criticize him, why can’t this king do the same?
4. Where did this king get his $48-$52 billion and why does he expect people to donate to him? Why does this king sanction some coup d’etats and not others? What right does he have to be king as his Chakri dynasty was begun with a coup d’etat. If he is so great why does he need to be protected by lese majeste? Why did he publicly criticize Thaksin when he is supposed to be “above politics”? Why can’t the people, or at least a group of subjects, choose this king’s successor like it was done after Rama VI and Rama VII? If this king is so honorable why didn’t he stand up when Sondthi and his Yellow Shirts screamed out “Restore power to the King?” and say, “Please don’t involve me. I don’t take sides. I am the King of all Thai people.”
5. Can Thailand have a democracy if patronage and lack of respect for a law of the land runs so deep in Thai culture?
6. What role did Thaksin’s empowerment of the people with programs like OTOP and micro finance and cheap healthcare play in his downfall? Who in Thailand have a vested interest in making sure that poor Thais have an infantile relationship with their king and look to him instead of themselves for the answers to their problems?
7. What role is technology playing in the democratization of the world? What role has it played in the protests here in Thailand?
8. In what ways can we ignorant/biased/neo- liberal/Eurocentric/hypocritical/judgmental/privileged/out of touch/not-quite-up-to-speed academically members of the community here at NM invite Thai scholars to explain those things about Thai culture that we simply don’t understand?
9. How can the Thai people meet in the middle and discuss the role of the monarchy in a civilized manner?
“But New Mandala, along with Bangkok Pundit, are guilty of perpetuating this fiction that Thailand is a country of amarts and phrais, rf feudal lords and exploited serfs. Which was never even close to truth or reality because if ever there is nation that was in harmony with itself, it was Thailand until Thaksin came along.”
Blame it all on Thaksin, simple.
Thailand is the only Asian country where feudal lords still rule exploited serfs.
Now the serfs are in Bangkok in the form of red shirts and the feudal lords are foaming in their mouths accusing NM and other progressive websites of perpetuating the lords and serfs fiction, funny, ha ha ha!
”But New Mandala, along with Bangkok Pundit, are guilty of perpetuating this fiction that Thailand is a country of amarts and phrais, rf feudal lords and exploited serfs.”
But it is Veechai.
If it were not, how do you explain then how and why senior civil servants can and do buy their positions and install their own personal cliques around themselves?
How do you explain why if middle grade government officials protest about misuse of department/ tax payers money for corrupt and or non existent projects, they fear for their jobs or are very likely to be moved to the far South or Issan, permanently?
How do you explain the ”loyalty” of army officers to their senior commanders, which goes beyond simple military duty, but into a life time quasi-political allegiance, with the reward of promotion, read power, financial gain etc., at the end of it all?
If that is not feudalism or its modern equivalent of ugly patronage and or croynism what is it?
In some agreement with this. I do not find NM and BP any more incisive in their analysis of Thailand’s woes than say those people who continually write up local history as all sweetness & light. The prai/amataya thing has been whipped up by those people who are are sore because they think society doen’t sufficiently reward their puffed-up small-minded egos. There are undoubtedly some people who would fit fairly squarely into these categories, but most certainly not those people who always want to exploit the country’s weaknesses for their own personal powergrab. Such characterisations do nothing to improve matters.
Just got back from Silom lunch, and there are hundreds of soldiers and police there, as well as massing at checkpoints on Rama IV. Razor wire has been unrolled on the sidewalks, so beware, drunken tourists!
Looks to me like a show of force, backing down the reds from marching on Silom. Maybe the army just wants a small symbolic victory after the disaster of last weekend.
Don’t agree that there’s an imminent crackdown today. But more importantly, I don’t see how any of this is going to resolve itself any other way.
You are certainly biased and pretend not to know Thaksin’s ultimate purpose? It is to weaken TOT and CAT so that AIS could take them over. It is also a strategy to set up a barrier for new entry into the telecom field.
I’m not bias, I simply state the fact. However, looking from another side, can you answer this question. Why do we need TOT and CAT??? what did they ever do??? under the B-T-O, TOT and CAT didn’t have to invest a single dime, the investment was all from the TelCo. The only effect having TOT and CAT around is that in increase the cost of operation for AIS, DTAC, and True, thus, increase the monthly subscription fees for customers. Moreover, it was Thaksin who actually lower the barrier of entry by enact the new concessional fees.
here is some like to the detail http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/2007/09/tot-bureaucratic-monstrosity-in-need-of.html http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/the-76-billion-baht-question
If you have any other evidence that prove otherwise, so please, share.
Do you think a failed and cheating son of his was capable of holding his riches without him interferring in running the telecombusiness while still being PM? Then you are certainly putting your head in the sand.
I have hold the above argument true, so no I dont feel cheat if the argument holds true.
If Thaksin died right now, who could provide finance to the red shirts? Pray tell me. Don’t tell me that the red shirts, supposed to be poor Isan farmers, could commandeer all pick-ups to drive to Bangkok.
This really shows that you are out of touch with what is going on in the up country. About the funding, if you recalled there are so many red fund raising all over the country since Nov-Jan, but of cause the main stream media never pick it up, suddenly, people like you who never know about what was going on came to the conclusion that the red got paid by Thaksin. http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/04/18/damon.thailand.redshirt.cnn?iref=allsearch
That’s why I say that Thailand is a potential failed state and it is now. The monarch could not do anything now because Thaksin is very powerful. Chicken comes to roost
your statement goes against what was going on, if Thaksin was really that powerful, the coup of 2006 wouldn’t be successful in the first place.
Btw, I’m agree with you are Thailand is coming a fail state, but not because of Thaksin, but rather because of the old system is trying to stop of wheel of progression. That’s why the whole system is collapsing.
I never did claim to be educated Tarrin and I certainly won’t broadcast the degrees I don’t possess all over the internet just to make my point. But I had on many occasions at NM or other websites engaged in some debate with Andrew W and his followers . . . and most I believe are students or alumni of (what’s that little known Aussie school again?) Australian College, and I was not at all impressed . . . that’s probably why I keep forgetting the name of that little known Australian college for anthropologists and dubious occupations.
But New Mandala, along with Bangkok Pundit, are guilty of perpetuating this fiction that Thailand is a country of amarts and phrais, rf feudal lords and exploited serfs. Which was never even close to truth or reality because if ever there is nation that was in harmony with itself, it was Thailand until Thaksin came along.
And the Red Shirts leadership (those half-educated incoherent trio Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut) had gleefully picked up this amart-phrai theme and used that to inflame those gullible and very vulnerable barely educated villagers to hurl themselves with idiotic bravado against the rubber bullets and police truncheons.
Every country has its elites, its wealthy and its have-nots. Thailand was no worse and certainly no better in the rich-poor-gap dilemma.
But of course New Mandala and Bangkok Pundit had another definition for the Thai elites – – as any bunch of unknown people, mostly influential Thais, who had rejected Thaksin Shinawatra and his corrupt brand of democracy. Is rejecting Thaksin’s dangerous brand of divisive democracy anti-democratic? I personally certainly do not think so.
Ok. Some fair points about the Western bias re. this debate.
However, I don’t see any Bangkok/ Chang Mai etc. based Thai academics clamouring to set up a debate on the once again subject of a political/ military/ failure of democracy crisis in Thailand.
Freedom of speech is guaranteed in the constitution, I believe.
For that matter, I also don’t see any useful or ongoing academic debate on the subject in the Thai media, especially on the free-to-air TV channels.
Why are the academics so silent?
I recall a Thai colleague telling me that, in general, Thaksin was disliked and worse by the majority of Thai academics, in Bangkok especially, as during his last government he had already tabled plans for the government funding of university faculties/ departments/ professors posts to be directly linked to the quality and usefulness of the research they ‘produce’.
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Ominous signs
6.10pm, 19th April, Bangkok time. Matichon headline: “р╕Ър╕┤р╣Кр╕Бр╕Ир╕┤р╣Лр╕з-р╕кр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕в”р╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕бр╕Вр╕нр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕п р╕Чр╕гр╕Зр╕лр╕вр╕╕р╕Фр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Вр╕▒р╕Фр╣Бр╕вр╣Йр╕З р╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ыр╕▓р╕Бр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕Щр╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕╡р╕Б р╕вр╕╕р╕Ър╕кр╕ар╕▓р╕Чр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡
[http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1271665627&grpid=00&catid=]
and
[http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1271665627&grpid=00&catid=]
I think this is a very important development, which helps us understand the strategy of Thaksin and the Red Shirts.
Chavalit: … р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Др╕вр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣Мр╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕кр╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕▒р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕ер╕╣р╕Бр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣Мр╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕ер╕вр╣Бр╕бр╣Йр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Щр╕нр╕Щр╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Эр╕▒р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╣Ар╕гр╕▓ р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Цр╕▓р╕бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Вр╕нр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Ур╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ир╕░р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Цр╕зр╕▓р╕вр╕Ор╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Др╕бр╣И р╕Юр╕е.р╕н.р╕Кр╕зр╕ер╕┤р╕Х р╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕кр╕┤р╣Ир╕Зр╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Юр╕╣р╕Фр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Др╕Зр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Щр╕Хр╕г р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕Ур╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╣Бр╕Щр╣Ир╕Щр╕нр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕╕р╕Ф р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕Ыр╕Бр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Ар╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Хр╕ер╕нр╕Ф р╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Др╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕Фр╕╡ **** р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕│р╕гр╕▓р╕Нр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Бр╣Зр╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Ур╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╣Вр╕Ыр╕гр╕Фр╣Ар╕Бр╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╣Вр╕Ыр╕гр╕Фр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕б **** р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Др╕Зр╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Вр╕Кр╕Др╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в…
very funny.
It seems to me that the central part of Thaksin’s strategy now is to draw the monarchy out into the open and to totally destroy its legitimacy – as the royalists have attempted to destroy that of Thaksin since 2005-2006.
One just has to consider for a while and ask oneself how the half of the country that supports the Red Shirts feels about “the Queen’s Guard” massacring Red Shirts on 10 April, and the Queen turning up at the hospital the next day to comfort her injured soldiers and mourn the loss of one of the key officers involved in the bloody April 2009 operation (which many Reds believed led to a large number of deaths).
So, if, after having been asked by Chavalit and Somchai (Thaksin’s “nominees”), the King DOESN’T step in to prevent more killings, and Abhisit orders “the Queen’s Guard” to go in and commit a massacre of Red Shirts, what will the Red Shirts (and much of the country (and the “international community”) think of the King and Queen, who were asked to step in and prevent Thais from being slaughtered…. but didn’t?
THIS is the way to destroy the monarchy….
You can’t say they were not given a chance to compromise.
Thailand on the verge
The news lately has been pretty grim here, but I want to think Vinai N for the comic relief in stating that Thailand was in harmony with itself prior to Thaksin. ROTFLO! Special note to Khun Vinai: Attacking the schools that people went to or work at, or their nationality is indicative of someone who doesn’t really have much of an argument to make. I believe the technical term for that is ‘argumentum ad hominem’, but I suspect you already know that.
An open letter to the Thai media
It is shameful for the current Thai government to rule the country against people’s will and it is even immoral to either lie people or prevent people from knowing what’s happening in their country. Today’s Thailand is no difference from Burma. Without reconciliatory process, the current political wound in Thailand can never be healed.
What next?
Lets look on the bright side: – A thinning in the ranks of Colonels & Generals might be a good thing for getting the top heavy Thai military back in shape 🙂
Apologies in advance for my bad taste.
Thailand on the verge
Maratjp – 20
Absolutely spot on.
I would like to add a few more.
Why do we see year on year the village residents of the same flood prone districts in Thailand waiting so patiently for the delivery of relief supplies from various royal or government agencies?
Why is corruption so rife, and why do Thai people accept it so meekly and do nothing about it?
Why should Thai people pay tea money to a school so their children can get a mediocre education?
Why am I asking these questions when I am not Thai?
Thailand on the verge
Congratulations on a timely seminar.
Can I put two very important questions to the panellists?
(i) If Abhisit orders the military to take action against the Red Shirts which results in a massacre tonight or in the next few days, is there any possibility of having murder charges laid against him at the International Criminal Court?
(ii) If “the Queens Guard” is once again ordered onto the streets to fire on unarmed Red Shirt protesters is there any chance of having murder charges laid against the Queen of Thailand?
Ominous signs
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/19/politics/Top-army-navy-units-readied-for-dispersal-30127373.html :
Elite forces from all three branches of the armed forces and police are being mobilised to carry out operations to remove red-shirt demonstrators from the Rajprasong intersection in Bangkok.
The rules of engagement are modelled on an emergency plan after 2003 when the Thai embassy and businesses run by Thai firms in Phnom Penh were burnt down by a rowdy mob.
Thailand was reportedly ready to go to war with Cambodia, with combat units readied and F-16 fighters put on standby for possible aerial attacks.
On Saturday evening, Army commander General Anupong Paochinda called a meeting of military commandants, the chief of staff and the acting police commander to discuss operational readiness of all units involved.
The meeting agreed that the military would no longer tolerate armed terrorists blending in with red-shirt mobs in Bangkok.
Army units to be used are capable of “special operations”. They include Task Force 90 – a heli-borne infantry assault unit, the 31 Infantry Regiment and red-bereted Army special operations forces. The Navy would dispatch their US-trained SEAL commandos and the Marines Force Recon strike force.
The Air Force will rely on their special operations commandos while the police would dispatch 191 SWAT commandos, anti-terrorism Arintharaj Force and paratroopers.
A joint intelligence report concluded that the armed men were recruited from three groups of people: separatists in the South, mercenaries from neighbouring countries, and paramilitary men trained by active officers allied with the red shirts.
Whatever sources they are from, the prime objective of the coming operations is to deal with the “armed third force”, coupled with red-shirt masses travelling to Bangkok from Monday to Wednesday.
All tall buildings nearby Rajprasong intersection are now manned by security officials.
What remains to be seen is whether these units will accomplish their mission – neutralising the armed terrorists, in line with a recently concluded hard-line determination by the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation.
Food stalls, souvenir stands, handclappers, banners, flags, lines of porta-potties, families
Accords precisely with my experience. I have been to Ratchaprasong just about every day for a week.
What I have not seen: terrorists, gunmen, villains nor any villainy.
What I have seen: a lot of people who believe they deserve a better deal from the people at the top of the Thai food chain. Without exception they have seemed good-natured but firm, pleasant but determined. Non-violent and touchingly welcoming of me as a foreigner.
What I have heard: if the King and the Palace depend on these people for their future security then they have a problem and it is getting bigger by the day. If Abhisit or Prem hope to have a home in Thailand after this is over, then they are in for some unpleasant news.
What I have not heard: Sedition, treason, threats, anger.
What I believe: having had considerable exposure to the hi-so amart set in Thailand and the people at the ‘grass-roots’ level, if I have a choice whom I will live with and count as my neighbours, then they will be wearing red shirts. No, I am not naive enough to think everything is rosy and everyone with a red shirt is a good guy, but insofar as I am concerned, I see nothing here that the government can honestly say is a threat to anything but the very narrow interests of it and its supporters.
Anti-pro-democracy
Arthurson – surely you must have some perception of “the laws of ‘reality’ economics”? Do you know that starting wages in Thailand for overseas graduates in engineering or business administration, with master’s degrees from well-known ivy league American universities are at around Baht 35,000 – Baht 45,000? And these are from well-established foreign-owned (American), not Thai-owned, companies.
The law of reality economics dictate the pay level for menial and very-skilled workers in Thailand, India, Philippines, China . . . to name a few. I don’t think ‘Thai elites’ had any say on what industrial wages should be in Thailand.
But if those who Red Shirts feel that (a) minimum wages and (b) village education standards should be raised . . . then why don’t they rally for these grievances which are understandable and sympathy-deserving. But instead those incoherent half-educated trio of Thai demagogues Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut . . . go on and inflame these gullible and very vulnerable buffaloes, if you’ll pardon the expression, ‘to burn the Thai house’ down!
Tarrin still owes me some educational mentoring on what he meant by ‘class struggle’ and ‘political revolution’ in the current Thai Red shirts protests.
Thailand on the verge
A country in harmony with itslef ????
Sure , then please explain the 13 military coups over the last 40 years …
Ominous signs
Les Abbey – 9
I’m more than willing to discuss about the Red Gaurs and NawaPol and their roll in shaping what is coming of Thailand today.
Anyway let me say why the Red Gaures and NawaPol are so much different than the Red but rather more similar to the Yellow/Pink. First you are certainly wrong about who initiate the formation of Red Gaurs /NawaPol – they were formed by the ISOC and not politician from Ayudhya as you said (at least you should get your fact check before you posted it, I did)
http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%B8%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%87%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%87
http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%B8%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%A5
There is nothing personal about history because what happened is already happened you can not intrepid any other way around except you can analyze the intention of why people made those decision in the past.
What I said was the fact, the NawaPol and Red Gaurs were the anti-student movement (fact) they took part in the student crack down of 6th October (fact), none of them got arrest or charge (fact) one of them became prime minister later on (fact) the communist community was split (fact). A large part of the NawaPol/Red Gaurs were made up of the ultra right-wing of the society, same with the Yellow/Pink (fact)
More on the side note, Samak was elected but Tanin Kraivichien came trough power via a Coup Detat.
As you can see, there’s nothing personal about my statement.
Moreover, the rule of thumb for every historian is, history was only written by whoever win the war. I will wait until you came up with some concrete evidences, since like many Yellow leaning right-wing fanatic here, most of you people fail to even produce something convincing.
Thailand on the verge
This seminar would be a lot more interesting if some Thai academics were on it, but they are not on it because they do not have the academic freedom that Western academics enjoy. It’s that simple. There isn’t a “farang” among us who wouldn’t love to have a top rate Thai academic speak to the world community either supporting the Reds or not supporting them. Unfortunately if they ever spoke out and criticized the magnificent Oz they would be ostracized and cast away from their country/family/culture.
To those posters who try to discredit this “no name” university I would say that this is a classic example of how the amataya in Thailand, as well as in every other country, try to control people and maintain their own status. Where do you think many of these top academics are recruited from to go and teach at citadels like Harvard and Oxford? They make their names from great research/books written at “no name” universities. Excellence and mediocrity exist everywhere, even at Harvard and Oxford. George W. Bush went to Harvard. Abraham Lincoln never went to college, and Bill Gates dropped out as well as Larry Elison, the CEO of Oracle. (Sorry for the American references, but I am from the US.)
Questions/issues for the seminar?
1. What is the role of a foreign press with another nation’s politics? Are there things foreigners see in ourselves/country that we don’t see because we are too close to our problems? (For example, has anyone ever been able to describe the United States better than de Tocqueville? A Frenchman.)
2. To what extent has the Thai government excised the Thai people’s contribution to the development of Thailand in the media and in the official history taught in schools? How many monuments to the people are there in Thailand? What place does Pridi Banomyong, the Father of Thai Democracy, play in the political indoctrination of Thai students? How many statues are there of him in Thailand? How much time is given to King Rama VII’s rising to greet the People’s Party instead of requiring his subjects to prostrate themselves in front of their King? Why is this moment so revolutionary in Thai history? Why does this king insist that his subjects prostrate themselves in front of him when Chulalongkorn did away with it back in the 19th century?
3. Why do Thai citizens elevate their king to a God status when Lord Buddha himself denied the existence of a God? If the Buddha could humbly ask his followers to criticize him, why can’t this king do the same?
4. Where did this king get his $48-$52 billion and why does he expect people to donate to him? Why does this king sanction some coup d’etats and not others? What right does he have to be king as his Chakri dynasty was begun with a coup d’etat. If he is so great why does he need to be protected by lese majeste? Why did he publicly criticize Thaksin when he is supposed to be “above politics”? Why can’t the people, or at least a group of subjects, choose this king’s successor like it was done after Rama VI and Rama VII? If this king is so honorable why didn’t he stand up when Sondthi and his Yellow Shirts screamed out “Restore power to the King?” and say, “Please don’t involve me. I don’t take sides. I am the King of all Thai people.”
5. Can Thailand have a democracy if patronage and lack of respect for a law of the land runs so deep in Thai culture?
6. What role did Thaksin’s empowerment of the people with programs like OTOP and micro finance and cheap healthcare play in his downfall? Who in Thailand have a vested interest in making sure that poor Thais have an infantile relationship with their king and look to him instead of themselves for the answers to their problems?
7. What role is technology playing in the democratization of the world? What role has it played in the protests here in Thailand?
8. In what ways can we ignorant/biased/neo- liberal/Eurocentric/hypocritical/judgmental/privileged/out of touch/not-quite-up-to-speed academically members of the community here at NM invite Thai scholars to explain those things about Thai culture that we simply don’t understand?
9. How can the Thai people meet in the middle and discuss the role of the monarchy in a civilized manner?
Thailand on the verge
“But New Mandala, along with Bangkok Pundit, are guilty of perpetuating this fiction that Thailand is a country of amarts and phrais, rf feudal lords and exploited serfs. Which was never even close to truth or reality because if ever there is nation that was in harmony with itself, it was Thailand until Thaksin came along.”
Blame it all on Thaksin, simple.
Thailand is the only Asian country where feudal lords still rule exploited serfs.
Now the serfs are in Bangkok in the form of red shirts and the feudal lords are foaming in their mouths accusing NM and other progressive websites of perpetuating the lords and serfs fiction, funny, ha ha ha!
Thailand on the verge
Veechai N.
First, I agree with you about Thaksin.
Second, this:
”But New Mandala, along with Bangkok Pundit, are guilty of perpetuating this fiction that Thailand is a country of amarts and phrais, rf feudal lords and exploited serfs.”
But it is Veechai.
If it were not, how do you explain then how and why senior civil servants can and do buy their positions and install their own personal cliques around themselves?
How do you explain why if middle grade government officials protest about misuse of department/ tax payers money for corrupt and or non existent projects, they fear for their jobs or are very likely to be moved to the far South or Issan, permanently?
How do you explain the ”loyalty” of army officers to their senior commanders, which goes beyond simple military duty, but into a life time quasi-political allegiance, with the reward of promotion, read power, financial gain etc., at the end of it all?
If that is not feudalism or its modern equivalent of ugly patronage and or croynism what is it?
Pray tell please, I am eager to know.
Thailand on the verge
#16
In some agreement with this. I do not find NM and BP any more incisive in their analysis of Thailand’s woes than say those people who continually write up local history as all sweetness & light. The prai/amataya thing has been whipped up by those people who are are sore because they think society doen’t sufficiently reward their puffed-up small-minded egos. There are undoubtedly some people who would fit fairly squarely into these categories, but most certainly not those people who always want to exploit the country’s weaknesses for their own personal powergrab. Such characterisations do nothing to improve matters.
Ominous signs
Just got back from Silom lunch, and there are hundreds of soldiers and police there, as well as massing at checkpoints on Rama IV. Razor wire has been unrolled on the sidewalks, so beware, drunken tourists!
Looks to me like a show of force, backing down the reds from marching on Silom. Maybe the army just wants a small symbolic victory after the disaster of last weekend.
Don’t agree that there’s an imminent crackdown today. But more importantly, I don’t see how any of this is going to resolve itself any other way.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alummnus # 51 –
You are certainly biased and pretend not to know Thaksin’s ultimate purpose? It is to weaken TOT and CAT so that AIS could take them over. It is also a strategy to set up a barrier for new entry into the telecom field.
I’m not bias, I simply state the fact. However, looking from another side, can you answer this question. Why do we need TOT and CAT??? what did they ever do??? under the B-T-O, TOT and CAT didn’t have to invest a single dime, the investment was all from the TelCo. The only effect having TOT and CAT around is that in increase the cost of operation for AIS, DTAC, and True, thus, increase the monthly subscription fees for customers. Moreover, it was Thaksin who actually lower the barrier of entry by enact the new concessional fees.
here is some like to the detail
http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/2007/09/tot-bureaucratic-monstrosity-in-need-of.html
http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/the-76-billion-baht-question
If you have any other evidence that prove otherwise, so please, share.
Do you think a failed and cheating son of his was capable of holding his riches without him interferring in running the telecombusiness while still being PM? Then you are certainly putting your head in the sand.
I have hold the above argument true, so no I dont feel cheat if the argument holds true.
If Thaksin died right now, who could provide finance to the red shirts? Pray tell me. Don’t tell me that the red shirts, supposed to be poor Isan farmers, could commandeer all pick-ups to drive to Bangkok.
This really shows that you are out of touch with what is going on in the up country. About the funding, if you recalled there are so many red fund raising all over the country since Nov-Jan, but of cause the main stream media never pick it up, suddenly, people like you who never know about what was going on came to the conclusion that the red got paid by Thaksin.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/04/18/damon.thailand.redshirt.cnn?iref=allsearch
That’s why I say that Thailand is a potential failed state and it is now. The monarch could not do anything now because Thaksin is very powerful. Chicken comes to roost
your statement goes against what was going on, if Thaksin was really that powerful, the coup of 2006 wouldn’t be successful in the first place.
Btw, I’m agree with you are Thailand is coming a fail state, but not because of Thaksin, but rather because of the old system is trying to stop of wheel of progression. That’s why the whole system is collapsing.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Les Abbey – Despite Andrew Walkers (#39) ‘No’, Walker does censor and delay comments.
I had posted earlier (hours ago) my definition of ‘Thai elite’ to respond to Ed (#37) that is certainly being delayed and probably censored.
(Happened to me before two or three times in the past, so why not again one more time?)
Thailand on the verge
I never did claim to be educated Tarrin and I certainly won’t broadcast the degrees I don’t possess all over the internet just to make my point. But I had on many occasions at NM or other websites engaged in some debate with Andrew W and his followers . . . and most I believe are students or alumni of (what’s that little known Aussie school again?) Australian College, and I was not at all impressed . . . that’s probably why I keep forgetting the name of that little known Australian college for anthropologists and dubious occupations.
But New Mandala, along with Bangkok Pundit, are guilty of perpetuating this fiction that Thailand is a country of amarts and phrais, rf feudal lords and exploited serfs. Which was never even close to truth or reality because if ever there is nation that was in harmony with itself, it was Thailand until Thaksin came along.
And the Red Shirts leadership (those half-educated incoherent trio Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut) had gleefully picked up this amart-phrai theme and used that to inflame those gullible and very vulnerable barely educated villagers to hurl themselves with idiotic bravado against the rubber bullets and police truncheons.
Every country has its elites, its wealthy and its have-nots. Thailand was no worse and certainly no better in the rich-poor-gap dilemma.
But of course New Mandala and Bangkok Pundit had another definition for the Thai elites – – as any bunch of unknown people, mostly influential Thais, who had rejected Thaksin Shinawatra and his corrupt brand of democracy. Is rejecting Thaksin’s dangerous brand of divisive democracy anti-democratic? I personally certainly do not think so.
Thailand on the verge
Ok. Some fair points about the Western bias re. this debate.
However, I don’t see any Bangkok/ Chang Mai etc. based Thai academics clamouring to set up a debate on the once again subject of a political/ military/ failure of democracy crisis in Thailand.
Freedom of speech is guaranteed in the constitution, I believe.
For that matter, I also don’t see any useful or ongoing academic debate on the subject in the Thai media, especially on the free-to-air TV channels.
Why are the academics so silent?
I recall a Thai colleague telling me that, in general, Thaksin was disliked and worse by the majority of Thai academics, in Bangkok especially, as during his last government he had already tabled plans for the government funding of university faculties/ departments/ professors posts to be directly linked to the quality and usefulness of the research they ‘produce’.
Quite a radical move, don’t you think?