Steve, this areal map of the demonstration area shows is labelled with the locations of the shooting. But beware, its accuracy is tainted by the obvious prejudices of those who made it.
Eduardo, Thai soldiers have their unit names or codes on their uniforms. Anybody with a rifle who doesn’t have the unit name or code on their uniform would immediately be under suspicion of being an agent provocateur, especially if they refused to reveal this information.
StanG – There are sharpshooters in the Government Lottery Office as well, they got arrested later. They are the 5 that got detained by the red later that night. Matter of fact, there were sharpshooter everywhere that night, and I suspected that the army do this because they know too well that there will be cameras everywhere, so the best way to prevent their own soldier being taken picture while shooting at the protester is to put the sharpshooter somewhere they can’t be seen, aka in the building or roof.
Another youtube link, shows the police telling a protester to lie down and when he don’t they club him several times and fire shots to his side. I’m no weapons expert but I assume these are rubber bullets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA3uhhWucyk
R. N. England (42) – I think you are probably right about the CP’s bad reputation. The royalists are experts at character assassination (since 1946) – not that they have to try very hard with the CP. If they can destroy his reputation sufficiently they will be able to find some “good person”, easier to control, to put on the throne in his place while maintaining all the monarchy’s trappings of power and its “network”. That may have been why the CP developed relations with Thaksin. You can see that this character assassination approach has succeeded in the international media, as with the ABC report the other night. There needs to be less public attention paid to the CP and much more attention paid to the fundamentally corrupt system set up by the father, and to the need to totally dismantle this system (but not necessarily the monarchy itself). That’s why lese majeste is so important to the royalists – because it prevents rational discussion of the system, thereby protecting it.
151st special warfare company (formerly taskforce 399) of Thai Special forces trained by US special forces have widely used these guns to assassinate the Burmese Wa running the yaba factories in the jungles near Burma-Thai border.
Yours is a relevant question for all outsiders looking in. Let me answer it this way.
I’m doing no better or worse than the thousands of British students and members of the Anti-Apartheid movement worldwide who stood by passively and supported the South African black majority doing the hard yards. This isn’t a matter of putting my money where my mouth is. Frankly, I don’t give that much of a shit.
But I do know what works, because I stood on the other side of the picket line in SA. White South Africans only caved in because we faced oblivion if we didn’t. I got bloody scared by the black hordes taking to the streets. I wouldn’t have let go of my life of priviledge if I didn’t. I also knew the thousands of left-wing British students 5,000 miles to the north weren’t about to take up arms and fly to their comrades sides…but I didn’t underestimate the power of their opinion either.
No, I won’t be Thailand’s Steve Biko. I doubt they’d ask me anyway. But I do know the power of a Biko in driving change. If change is what the Thai want, then I wholheartedly recommend they find one.
From the first point rose by ANU scholars, Thai government is asked to “reduce the level of measures which have created the conditions which have led to violence, and to cease using forceful measures, especially the use of inappropriate weapons against protestors” also “The government should observe the principles of crowd control in accordance with universal standards”.
It seems that Thai government has been judged by them that inappropriate weapons were used and the principles of crowd control according to universal standards have not been followed. These issues are under investigations. How ones can judge an indistinct issue like this?
Agreet on several points making by you, my opinion on Thailand case are here :
1. While government inform that the red shirt are encouraging hatred, I have found that several wording raised by the government’s units used stimulated hatred. For example, the government asked the Bangkokian show anti-action against the red shirt.
2. The event was suddenly turn to heat when the marching of the military troop with weapons and shileds commanded by the civilain government to clear the civilaians, while civilian protesters had none except one that they could find on streets to protect themselves.
3. In fact, the anti-government groups have been abusing the laws. What kinds of laws? It’s only traffic law or civil law. But the government use the wrong and strongest law in the country to stop these groups, THE MARTIAL LAW. It’s just to blame the government used martial law with minor case.
4. It’s not only political conflicts but some significant social matter on double standard and those who have and don’t have (money, power, status) In the past, a foreigner academic criticised Thai society seen as the status society, people always hunted for higher status and tried eveyway to get higher status. It’s automaticly when people met each other will determin his or her status and other status. This is the way of Thai relationship amongst them. Thus, these red shirt are a political and social demand that every open system politics must response appropriatedly. It’s politics we can see, but social exclusion is under the surface of the system. New agreement on the political architecture is required.
Alladin (42), I have wondered how much the Crown Prince’s bad reputation has been cultivated by the King’s courtiers, who have certainly done a good hatchet job on Thaksin. They were given a strong motive to blacken the Crown Prince Years years ago when it was supposed that the King was contemplating abdication in his son’s favour. If the Crown Prince and his entourage have been at odds with the King’s network, a common situation in hereditary monarchies, we might expect fairly radical change. Though there is an obvious short-term argument for him taking over the powerful network as it exists, he does not appear to be the kind of person who would want want to step straight into the job his more stoic father shaped for himself, with the company of grovelling, tiresome old men and the interminable court mumbo-jumbo. He may be prepared to sacrifice a good deal of this to give himself more time for pleasure. If he were strong and smart enough to deliver much of that power into the hands of the people’s elected representatives he would earn the thanks of most people in Thailand, and many in the wider world.
It looks like there WERE snipers on the roof of Satriwittaya shcool, but were there any casualties recorded there?
So far all the reports imply that people were killed only at Kok Wua, including the flagman.
Army guy said the flagman was shot from the red shirt side, from his right, while the soldiers were to his left. From the video they were quite far and there were quite a few people between them and the flagman.
Seems that a scenario similar to 6 October 1973 is going to happen soon. Pro-democracy supporters outside Thailand should watch the situation closely each minute because their support is highly needed.
Like the 6 October massacre, these people don’t mind killing fellow countrymen in order to remain in power and then spread lies that “terrorists” have infiltrated the red shirts movement. In 1976, they claimed “communists” were behind the students.
On a brighter note, some divisions of the Govt are actually taking the GTP seriously – at least on the surface. I am about to test that apparent change of mindset at the Ministry of Science and Technology very soon. I will let you know the result.
#5 #36 Fantasy world stuff, which plays right into the hands who are only interested in what they can get out of a weak succession.
Perhaps you should try to convince the broader public in the longer-term. Which is something that no one has ever really attempted to do here – because they always allow their cause to be subverted by mainstream party-party politicians.
This short-term battering-ram approach has been tried dozens of times and has failed miserably every time. Indeed, by defaulting yet again to terrorism you have made it very clear that you are in the pay of mainstream Thai politics – since this approach is all they know. And you want to run a civil war to keep your paymasters happy. Give the rest of us a break! That is a flat-out threat with which you are attempting to use ordinary citizens as leverage for the betterment of those who are hoping to benefit from a weak succession.
But isn’t it always the same. Idealists frequently become just as grasping and manipulating as those who they are trying to cut down. It’s about time you became a proper political campaigner with some real policies to sell to the public, instead of always just trying to fool them.
The real failure of Thai politics is that no one can be bothered to create political parties with real policies. Instead, we always get self-serving ‘party’ parties. You will say that is because a repressive system doesn’t allow it. That is pure lazy BS. If the color-coded succession terrorists can organize, so can proper political parties with real policies. All that energy would be better directed into organizations that are actually capable of selling a positive future to people, instead of the complete negativity we are stuck with now.
But to address your ANC thoughts. Every one knew where the ANC was coming from. The ANC was not created to serve the aims of mainstream politicians. I distrust the redshirt leadership as much as I would distrust any of Thailland’s numerous fascist dictators.
Either Nick or someone else on the scene, can you please explain the location background of this video of Flagman getting shot in the head in that infamous night on the Dinso Road?
Maybe the sniper was the same sniper from the school Nick was talking about. If the bullet that just missed Nick was .50 calibre he must the same sniper who shot our flagman with a .50 M107 sniper rifle.
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The Embassy and the ABC
“The Monarchy is loved by all Thais… and any Thai who says otherwise will be locked up.”
One question: how can a Constitutional Monarchy survive so many constitutions being torn up?
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Trojan – those are not police, they are soldier from the 2nd Infantry Division, the “Queen’s Guard”
Mourning and defiance
Steve, this areal map of the demonstration area shows is labelled with the locations of the shooting. But beware, its accuracy is tainted by the obvious prejudices of those who made it.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=163194&id=112988452055370&ref=mf
Eduardo, Thai soldiers have their unit names or codes on their uniforms. Anybody with a rifle who doesn’t have the unit name or code on their uniform would immediately be under suspicion of being an agent provocateur, especially if they refused to reveal this information.
Mourning and defiance
StanG – There are sharpshooters in the Government Lottery Office as well, they got arrested later. They are the 5 that got detained by the red later that night. Matter of fact, there were sharpshooter everywhere that night, and I suspected that the army do this because they know too well that there will be cameras everywhere, so the best way to prevent their own soldier being taken picture while shooting at the protester is to put the sharpshooter somewhere they can’t be seen, aka in the building or roof.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Another youtube link, shows the police telling a protester to lie down and when he don’t they club him several times and fire shots to his side. I’m no weapons expert but I assume these are rubber bullets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA3uhhWucyk
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
I mean R. N. England (44)
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
R. N. England (42) – I think you are probably right about the CP’s bad reputation. The royalists are experts at character assassination (since 1946) – not that they have to try very hard with the CP. If they can destroy his reputation sufficiently they will be able to find some “good person”, easier to control, to put on the throne in his place while maintaining all the monarchy’s trappings of power and its “network”. That may have been why the CP developed relations with Thaksin. You can see that this character assassination approach has succeeded in the international media, as with the ABC report the other night. There needs to be less public attention paid to the CP and much more attention paid to the fundamentally corrupt system set up by the father, and to the need to totally dismantle this system (but not necessarily the monarchy itself). That’s why lese majeste is so important to the royalists – because it prevents rational discussion of the system, thereby protecting it.
Najib’s first year in office, Part II
Thanks Neptunian,
Look forward to your findings.
Recently Idris Jala was on a local radio station describing progress in GTP. (Listen hear)
While I do think that this is a step forward – albeit an incremental one – my concern remains that nothing substantial has been done.
Mourning and defiance
This is the Barrett M107 .50 sniper rifle and bullet that blew off top of the Flagman’s head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWJp14tkBlU
151st special warfare company (formerly taskforce 399) of Thai Special forces trained by US special forces have widely used these guns to assassinate the Burmese Wa running the yaba factories in the jungles near Burma-Thai border.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Les.
Yours is a relevant question for all outsiders looking in. Let me answer it this way.
I’m doing no better or worse than the thousands of British students and members of the Anti-Apartheid movement worldwide who stood by passively and supported the South African black majority doing the hard yards. This isn’t a matter of putting my money where my mouth is. Frankly, I don’t give that much of a shit.
But I do know what works, because I stood on the other side of the picket line in SA. White South Africans only caved in because we faced oblivion if we didn’t. I got bloody scared by the black hordes taking to the streets. I wouldn’t have let go of my life of priviledge if I didn’t. I also knew the thousands of left-wing British students 5,000 miles to the north weren’t about to take up arms and fly to their comrades sides…but I didn’t underestimate the power of their opinion either.
No, I won’t be Thailand’s Steve Biko. I doubt they’d ask me anyway. But I do know the power of a Biko in driving change. If change is what the Thai want, then I wholheartedly recommend they find one.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
From the first point rose by ANU scholars, Thai government is asked to “reduce the level of measures which have created the conditions which have led to violence, and to cease using forceful measures, especially the use of inappropriate weapons against protestors” also “The government should observe the principles of crowd control in accordance with universal standards”.
It seems that Thai government has been judged by them that inappropriate weapons were used and the principles of crowd control according to universal standards have not been followed. These issues are under investigations. How ones can judge an indistinct issue like this?
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Agreet on several points making by you, my opinion on Thailand case are here :
1. While government inform that the red shirt are encouraging hatred, I have found that several wording raised by the government’s units used stimulated hatred. For example, the government asked the Bangkokian show anti-action against the red shirt.
2. The event was suddenly turn to heat when the marching of the military troop with weapons and shileds commanded by the civilain government to clear the civilaians, while civilian protesters had none except one that they could find on streets to protect themselves.
3. In fact, the anti-government groups have been abusing the laws. What kinds of laws? It’s only traffic law or civil law. But the government use the wrong and strongest law in the country to stop these groups, THE MARTIAL LAW. It’s just to blame the government used martial law with minor case.
4. It’s not only political conflicts but some significant social matter on double standard and those who have and don’t have (money, power, status) In the past, a foreigner academic criticised Thai society seen as the status society, people always hunted for higher status and tried eveyway to get higher status. It’s automaticly when people met each other will determin his or her status and other status. This is the way of Thai relationship amongst them. Thus, these red shirt are a political and social demand that every open system politics must response appropriatedly. It’s politics we can see, but social exclusion is under the surface of the system. New agreement on the political architecture is required.
ANU Allumni 2004
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
Alladin (42), I have wondered how much the Crown Prince’s bad reputation has been cultivated by the King’s courtiers, who have certainly done a good hatchet job on Thaksin. They were given a strong motive to blacken the Crown Prince Years years ago when it was supposed that the King was contemplating abdication in his son’s favour. If the Crown Prince and his entourage have been at odds with the King’s network, a common situation in hereditary monarchies, we might expect fairly radical change. Though there is an obvious short-term argument for him taking over the powerful network as it exists, he does not appear to be the kind of person who would want want to step straight into the job his more stoic father shaped for himself, with the company of grovelling, tiresome old men and the interminable court mumbo-jumbo. He may be prepared to sacrifice a good deal of this to give himself more time for pleasure. If he were strong and smart enough to deliver much of that power into the hands of the people’s elected representatives he would earn the thanks of most people in Thailand, and many in the wider world.
Mourning and defiance
It looks like there WERE snipers on the roof of Satriwittaya shcool, but were there any casualties recorded there?
So far all the reports imply that people were killed only at Kok Wua, including the flagman.
Army guy said the flagman was shot from the red shirt side, from his right, while the soldiers were to his left. From the video they were quite far and there were quite a few people between them and the flagman.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Seems that a scenario similar to 6 October 1973 is going to happen soon. Pro-democracy supporters outside Thailand should watch the situation closely each minute because their support is highly needed.
Like the 6 October massacre, these people don’t mind killing fellow countrymen in order to remain in power and then spread lies that “terrorists” have infiltrated the red shirts movement. In 1976, they claimed “communists” were behind the students.
Najib’s first year in office, Part II
Greg,
On a brighter note, some divisions of the Govt are actually taking the GTP seriously – at least on the surface. I am about to test that apparent change of mindset at the Ministry of Science and Technology very soon. I will let you know the result.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
#5 #36 Fantasy world stuff, which plays right into the hands who are only interested in what they can get out of a weak succession.
Perhaps you should try to convince the broader public in the longer-term. Which is something that no one has ever really attempted to do here – because they always allow their cause to be subverted by mainstream party-party politicians.
This short-term battering-ram approach has been tried dozens of times and has failed miserably every time. Indeed, by defaulting yet again to terrorism you have made it very clear that you are in the pay of mainstream Thai politics – since this approach is all they know. And you want to run a civil war to keep your paymasters happy. Give the rest of us a break! That is a flat-out threat with which you are attempting to use ordinary citizens as leverage for the betterment of those who are hoping to benefit from a weak succession.
But isn’t it always the same. Idealists frequently become just as grasping and manipulating as those who they are trying to cut down. It’s about time you became a proper political campaigner with some real policies to sell to the public, instead of always just trying to fool them.
The real failure of Thai politics is that no one can be bothered to create political parties with real policies. Instead, we always get self-serving ‘party’ parties. You will say that is because a repressive system doesn’t allow it. That is pure lazy BS. If the color-coded succession terrorists can organize, so can proper political parties with real policies. All that energy would be better directed into organizations that are actually capable of selling a positive future to people, instead of the complete negativity we are stuck with now.
But to address your ANC thoughts. Every one knew where the ANC was coming from. The ANC was not created to serve the aims of mainstream politicians. I distrust the redshirt leadership as much as I would distrust any of Thailland’s numerous fascist dictators.
Statement by students and academics at ANU
Thailand needs a Steve Biko.
Stuart are you volunteering or would you prefer an Isarn farmer to do it for you?
Statement by students and academics at ANU
The students should know better that, in the eve of revolution, if the people don’t bare arms, they will be slaughtered.
Mourning and defiance
Either Nick or someone else on the scene, can you please explain the location background of this video of Flagman getting shot in the head in that infamous night on the Dinso Road?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcwxd7_redbkk_news?
Maybe the sniper was the same sniper from the school Nick was talking about. If the bullet that just missed Nick was .50 calibre he must the same sniper who shot our flagman with a .50 M107 sniper rifle.