There’s no doubt that there is interest in seeing how other countries and movements have dealt with monarchies. Part of the reason for this is that these details have kind of been off limits in the past because of the myth-making associated with the Thai monarchy. I doubt there’s too much interest in communist ideas, except amongst a small group of persons recapturing something they feel was lost in the late 1970s/early 1980s. I think the symbol of red star has made a comeback, but for many the meaning of the past is simply unknown.
Even so, when at the Pan Fah site last week, I did come across a small stall with a guy selling Marxist literature, including Jit Phumisak books. He also had several issues of Fah Diew Kan for sale. On the front of his table he’d pinned a series of pictures: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao. It felt like 1975 for a moment.
I think Nick was a week too late and reiterated the same old stuff we’ve already seen on blogs like NM. I haven’t even waited for all his pix to load, I must have seen thousands of them already, it’s all a blur.
Who hasn’t read any of the “inside” accounts yet? There’s Mark and his Soi here, there’s Katherine with her translation of red headbands and t-shirts, there’s that guy who first posted about good reception on Sukhumwit, there were three or four Nirmal’s posts on his blog, Prachatai has a dozen reports, too.
Nick’s post is arguably the best but it’s just too late to really add anything.
As for numbers on the first Saturday, 150,000 people squashed at 3 per 1 sq.m. would need 50,000 sq.m. Ratchadamnoen is about 60m wide, so you’d need almost a kilometer of fully packed crowd you can’t walk through. Judging from photos, the packed area wasn’t much longer than some 300m, and I doubt there were all squeezed in three per square meter ratio.
It looks like there were only in the range of 50,000 people close to the stage, the rest spread from Sanam Luang to wherever it was on the other side.
If you want to crunch the real numbers, Google Earth is you best friend. The ballpark should still be about the same.
I’m astonished to see these pictures…of LENIN in a book being openly passed out in Thailand. This Nick Nostitz better take cover.
I spent a lot of time with the protesters their first weekend in town and did see Chairman Mao hats with the star around and was surprised.
I’m currently in Chiang Rai and have been speaking with people around here and am also surprised that they are much more informed than I once imagined. I asked many of them if they had read foreign language press critical of the Monarchy and they said they had.
We often talk about a “feeling” we get about things in life. I now have a feeling (and I’ve been in Thailand more than six years) that things are going to be a CHANGIN’ when Bhumibol moves on.
I am putting together another article for UPIAsia, and just two days ago had also bought the same issue (85 Baht) from a local newsstand, and have actually superimposed the English onto the cover. so in case you see almost the same thing re. photo of the cover on the UPIAsia site don’t go copyright!
Seriously, great photos.
Frank
An extremely good coverage (again) from Nik Nostitz. Excellent ‘on the ground’ reports and a great deal of very useful and informative stuff that we cannot get anywhere else ( e.g. the interview with the Brahmin, the Democrats’ attempt to counter the black magic, the disruptive behaviour of media ‘blow-ins’.) Nik’s ability to meticulously chronicle the real action & the views of rank-and-file protesters & people on the streets is awesome.
He deserves an award – and I would think his first-hand reportage, backed up with superb photographic evidence will be studied by Thai Studies students for years to come. Roll on Book 2!
I can’t be everywhere and do everything. Thaksin’s speeches are quite predictable, the only slight surprises this time were the elevation of the conflict to a “class war”. I have to admit that after 5 years of almost continuous protests i get quite tired of listening to speeches on stages.
I put more importance on what common protesters say when i talk with them, as this reflects the ideological positions of the protest movements more than anything else.
“Andrew”:
I hope that i contribute to a positive conclusion of the conflict with my reports. My job is to learn and to inform as fairly and impartially as i can. It is up to readers if they accept what i write, or not. More i cannot do – i am not a leader of anything, i cannot dictate anything.
Thai society is polarized, and in the difficult and painful process of change. Part of this is learning to accept that a modern society lives through conflict and peaceful conflict resolution. This is an ongoing process, and we don’t know yet where else it will take us.
I do check the numbers – the real numbers and not the inflated or deflated ones. I have varied sources outside the protest movements with whom i discuss the numbers. In addition to that i am in person present to get my own impressions. Therefore i stated what i stated: At no pint had the PAD numbers on the streets that came even close to the current protests.
One of the idiocies, for example, were the numbers cited pre-coup of several hundred thousand PAD members at Sanam Luang. If Sanam Luang is packed from one end to the other – only 100 000 people fit in. Take the large stage area, the many stalls at the sides, and the thinning crowd at the bottom end, and you come to a more realistic number.
As to moneys paid, i am getting tired of repeating the same. Yes, also moneys were paid at the PAD (such as to one old women in my Soi). But it is conjecture to equal moneys paid with “hired protesters”. People on both sides, regardless of moneys paid or not, believe in their cause. In both movements moneys are also donated by not just businesses, but also by ordinary protesters, to support protesters on the streets. I only look at political convictions of protesters, and in both movements i only find people convinced of their politics (apart from a few guards for special purposes – which each side has).
As to Thai magic – i do not pretend to “understand” it, what i wrote is the result of several interviews. What rain may or may not mean is a question of interpretation. That the Democrats took the curse more than serious was evident, and you can see this as well in the facial expression of the party officials holding the bowl of sacred water.
The Red Shirts have held already a consecutive rally lasting now more three and a half years, if you take the tent’s at Sanam Luang, for example. But also that the Red Shirt movement is still alive, and growing on organization, political ideology is counter proof of your assumption.
I would suggest to go and discuss their political convictions with the many villagers camping out at Royal Plaza and surroundings if you are interested in substance, and not just allegations.
I just wonder who are the authors of these articles.
I believe that the topics are very interesting to Thai readers.
It would be great if they are written by credible authors.
Poo Nakonsritum-
A few small factual points, no need to fight the yellow vs red war over again.
-The PAD crowd was not consistent in size at all, just as was the case with the reds, big days drew bigger crowds. Weekends swelled the PAD crowd at Govt House considerably.
-It was pretty clear that the PAD crowd was primarily (not entirely) from Bangkok. No need for ‘Gas Money’.
-Plentiful free food was available at the PAD encampment. Whether people donate food (and cooking labor), or money for food (‘Food Money’, as you put it) amounts to the same thing. As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
siammiddlepath – I’m suggesting that Nick could be the first neutral media! That is what he states – “I report what i see, and that’s it”.
I too enjoy Nicks perspective and, I add it to all the rest and draw my own conclusions.
I’ll agree to this – “As for Thai people being polarized, perhaps it’s the right time to be so.” – if it contributes to bringing everyone together 🙂
Which is more right? Educated, more well off people protesting about things that need changing or poorer people being paid to protest about what they’re told needs changing? Maybe the difference is quality vs. quantity. Either way, there’s plenty of people wanting change, no matter who gets to sit in government and I look forward to someone addressing the publics concerns someday.
Nick, thank you for this thorough coverage. Though I am not a journalist (just a lowly backpacker!), I did go to the rallies near Democracy Monument to take some pictures, and jumped on the back of a moto on Saturday’s mobile march to do the same. I did not go to the blood pouring / painting. I cannot claim to be an expert on the intricacies of Thai politics in any fashion, but I can say for certain that the raucous spirit, energy and sheer excitement was palpable, especially as the mobile march wound its way through the streets of Bangkok. I will be sending your article to my friends and family back home in Canada who have been trying to understand the background and events of these last weeks. Thanks again.
Chris Beale: I fully conceede on that one. My sense of humour never could quite scale those heights of condescension.
Still, let’s just hope all those Thai soldiers outranked by a dog do indeed get the joke, and decide that if just one farang in their Kingdom has been delightfully amused then it’s all been worth it.
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“History will not forgive us…”
Well they did assume power. And history has not forgiven them.
“We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country…”
Vladinir Lenin
“A lie told often enough becomes the truth.”
Vladimir Lenin
Oh, yes. Let’s have a red Thailand. The Thai Rouge.
“History will not forgive us…”
“Frank G Anderson”:
Thanks a lot. 🙂
I was very surprised when i saw the publication there.
I wish you the best for you legal cases, good on you to counter-sue.
Giles Ungpakorn on asset seizures, etc
I had no problem accessing Ji’s article on the internet here in Bangkok.
It wasn’t worth the click, though.
“History will not forgive us…”
There’s no doubt that there is interest in seeing how other countries and movements have dealt with monarchies. Part of the reason for this is that these details have kind of been off limits in the past because of the myth-making associated with the Thai monarchy. I doubt there’s too much interest in communist ideas, except amongst a small group of persons recapturing something they feel was lost in the late 1970s/early 1980s. I think the symbol of red star has made a comeback, but for many the meaning of the past is simply unknown.
Even so, when at the Pan Fah site last week, I did come across a small stall with a guy selling Marxist literature, including Jit Phumisak books. He also had several issues of Fah Diew Kan for sale. On the front of his table he’d pinned a series of pictures: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao. It felt like 1975 for a moment.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
I think Nick was a week too late and reiterated the same old stuff we’ve already seen on blogs like NM. I haven’t even waited for all his pix to load, I must have seen thousands of them already, it’s all a blur.
Who hasn’t read any of the “inside” accounts yet? There’s Mark and his Soi here, there’s Katherine with her translation of red headbands and t-shirts, there’s that guy who first posted about good reception on Sukhumwit, there were three or four Nirmal’s posts on his blog, Prachatai has a dozen reports, too.
Nick’s post is arguably the best but it’s just too late to really add anything.
As for numbers on the first Saturday, 150,000 people squashed at 3 per 1 sq.m. would need 50,000 sq.m. Ratchadamnoen is about 60m wide, so you’d need almost a kilometer of fully packed crowd you can’t walk through. Judging from photos, the packed area wasn’t much longer than some 300m, and I doubt there were all squeezed in three per square meter ratio.
It looks like there were only in the range of 50,000 people close to the stage, the rest spread from Sanam Luang to wherever it was on the other side.
If you want to crunch the real numbers, Google Earth is you best friend. The ballpark should still be about the same.
“History will not forgive us…”
I’m astonished to see these pictures…of LENIN in a book being openly passed out in Thailand. This Nick Nostitz better take cover.
I spent a lot of time with the protesters their first weekend in town and did see Chairman Mao hats with the star around and was surprised.
I’m currently in Chiang Rai and have been speaking with people around here and am also surprised that they are much more informed than I once imagined. I asked many of them if they had read foreign language press critical of the Monarchy and they said they had.
We often talk about a “feeling” we get about things in life. I now have a feeling (and I’ve been in Thailand more than six years) that things are going to be a CHANGIN’ when Bhumibol moves on.
“History will not forgive us…”
erm, It’s a big jump from Lenin to Thaksin..Or is it?
Closer than the Gandhi/Mandela/Mother Teresa comparisons anyway
“History will not forgive us…”
Nick –
You stole my thunder! (Grin)
I am putting together another article for UPIAsia, and just two days ago had also bought the same issue (85 Baht) from a local newsstand, and have actually superimposed the English onto the cover. so in case you see almost the same thing re. photo of the cover on the UPIAsia site don’t go copyright!
Seriously, great photos.
Frank
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
An extremely good coverage (again) from Nik Nostitz. Excellent ‘on the ground’ reports and a great deal of very useful and informative stuff that we cannot get anywhere else ( e.g. the interview with the Brahmin, the Democrats’ attempt to counter the black magic, the disruptive behaviour of media ‘blow-ins’.) Nik’s ability to meticulously chronicle the real action & the views of rank-and-file protesters & people on the streets is awesome.
He deserves an award – and I would think his first-hand reportage, backed up with superb photographic evidence will be studied by Thai Studies students for years to come. Roll on Book 2!
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Just wondering why Thanpuying Viraya Chavakul, a palace insider was at the rally?
“History will not forgive us…”
http://www.newmandala.org/2010/03/03/giles-ungpakorn-on-asset-seizures-etc/#comment-682118
I received a psychic transmission earlier about this.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
“Legal Nomads”:
Thank you as well. 🙂
“Thaihome”:
I can’t be everywhere and do everything. Thaksin’s speeches are quite predictable, the only slight surprises this time were the elevation of the conflict to a “class war”. I have to admit that after 5 years of almost continuous protests i get quite tired of listening to speeches on stages.
I put more importance on what common protesters say when i talk with them, as this reflects the ideological positions of the protest movements more than anything else.
“Andrew”:
I hope that i contribute to a positive conclusion of the conflict with my reports. My job is to learn and to inform as fairly and impartially as i can. It is up to readers if they accept what i write, or not. More i cannot do – i am not a leader of anything, i cannot dictate anything.
Thai society is polarized, and in the difficult and painful process of change. Part of this is learning to accept that a modern society lives through conflict and peaceful conflict resolution. This is an ongoing process, and we don’t know yet where else it will take us.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
“Poo Nakonsritum”:
I do check the numbers – the real numbers and not the inflated or deflated ones. I have varied sources outside the protest movements with whom i discuss the numbers. In addition to that i am in person present to get my own impressions. Therefore i stated what i stated: At no pint had the PAD numbers on the streets that came even close to the current protests.
One of the idiocies, for example, were the numbers cited pre-coup of several hundred thousand PAD members at Sanam Luang. If Sanam Luang is packed from one end to the other – only 100 000 people fit in. Take the large stage area, the many stalls at the sides, and the thinning crowd at the bottom end, and you come to a more realistic number.
As to moneys paid, i am getting tired of repeating the same. Yes, also moneys were paid at the PAD (such as to one old women in my Soi). But it is conjecture to equal moneys paid with “hired protesters”. People on both sides, regardless of moneys paid or not, believe in their cause. In both movements moneys are also donated by not just businesses, but also by ordinary protesters, to support protesters on the streets. I only look at political convictions of protesters, and in both movements i only find people convinced of their politics (apart from a few guards for special purposes – which each side has).
As to Thai magic – i do not pretend to “understand” it, what i wrote is the result of several interviews. What rain may or may not mean is a question of interpretation. That the Democrats took the curse more than serious was evident, and you can see this as well in the facial expression of the party officials holding the bowl of sacred water.
The Red Shirts have held already a consecutive rally lasting now more three and a half years, if you take the tent’s at Sanam Luang, for example. But also that the Red Shirt movement is still alive, and growing on organization, political ideology is counter proof of your assumption.
I would suggest to go and discuss their political convictions with the many villagers camping out at Royal Plaza and surroundings if you are interested in substance, and not just allegations.
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
[…] desprecio también se refleja a menudo en la prensa anti-Thaksin de la capital : el diario en lengua inglesa m├бs importante de […]
“History will not forgive us…”
I just wonder who are the authors of these articles.
I believe that the topics are very interesting to Thai readers.
It would be great if they are written by credible authors.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Poo Nakonsritum-
A few small factual points, no need to fight the yellow vs red war over again.
-The PAD crowd was not consistent in size at all, just as was the case with the reds, big days drew bigger crowds. Weekends swelled the PAD crowd at Govt House considerably.
-It was pretty clear that the PAD crowd was primarily (not entirely) from Bangkok. No need for ‘Gas Money’.
-Plentiful free food was available at the PAD encampment. Whether people donate food (and cooking labor), or money for food (‘Food Money’, as you put it) amounts to the same thing. As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
siammiddlepath – I’m suggesting that Nick could be the first neutral media! That is what he states – “I report what i see, and that’s it”.
I too enjoy Nicks perspective and, I add it to all the rest and draw my own conclusions.
I’ll agree to this – “As for Thai people being polarized, perhaps it’s the right time to be so.” – if it contributes to bringing everyone together 🙂
Which is more right? Educated, more well off people protesting about things that need changing or poorer people being paid to protest about what they’re told needs changing? Maybe the difference is quality vs. quantity. Either way, there’s plenty of people wanting change, no matter who gets to sit in government and I look forward to someone addressing the publics concerns someday.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Nick, thank you for this thorough coverage. Though I am not a journalist (just a lowly backpacker!), I did go to the rallies near Democracy Monument to take some pictures, and jumped on the back of a moto on Saturday’s mobile march to do the same. I did not go to the blood pouring / painting. I cannot claim to be an expert on the intricacies of Thai politics in any fashion, but I can say for certain that the raucous spirit, energy and sheer excitement was palpable, especially as the mobile march wound its way through the streets of Bangkok. I will be sending your article to my friends and family back home in Canada who have been trying to understand the background and events of these last weeks. Thanks again.
Sulaiman on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Chris Beale: I fully conceede on that one. My sense of humour never could quite scale those heights of condescension.
Still, let’s just hope all those Thai soldiers outranked by a dog do indeed get the joke, and decide that if just one farang in their Kingdom has been delightfully amused then it’s all been worth it.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Nick,
What about Thaksin’s nightly phone ins? What about the content of the speeches? What are the goals of the leaders?
By not reporting that aren’t you “suppressing” what this is about?
TH