For those who are so offended or disturbed by Abhisit prostrating himself before King Bhumibol, were you as offended and upset when Suchinda and Chamlong did the same? Or did you cheer with the rest of Thailand?
And do you think Thaksin didn’t do the same, just because you don’t have a photo of it?
[…] at the gates of Government House, amidst a heavy security presence. The ritual was concluded by a Brahmin priest (incorrectly termed a “witch doctor” by some reporters, who placed a Buddha statue at […]
Nganadeeleg could be right that history, eventually (but could take maybe 5-10 years or even longer), co uld be on their side. But I doubt history will ever look favorably on the record of one Thaksin Shinawatra whose record of extra-judicial killing rampage, divisive politics, mafia-like organized massive corruption, and rampant vote-buying ‘democracy’ would never pass as Thai hero or model of sort.
But everyone’s entitled to their opinion of course.
BTW. . . has anyone at New Mandala shed their blood lately for the Thaksin cause?
[…] tendencies. Long-time New Mandala readers may recall that last year Andrew and I launched a campaign to have a new baby elephant at Taronga Zoo in Sydney named “Suwicha” […]
[…] to draw attention to the injustices that come with the enforcement of Thailand’s lese majeste law. As Andrew and I wrote last year, “[b]oth Suwicha Thakor and the baby elephant are going […]
[…] of the open-ended and relatively democratic competition for “Suwicha” (who was eventually given the banal moniker of “Luuk chai”), the new elephant will be named from one of the […]
[…] Zoo in Sydney named “Suwicha” (р╕кр╕╕р╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▓) in honour of lese majeste prisoner, Suwicha Thakor. That campaign was unsuccessful, although we hope it generated some more awareness of […]
Thanks Marc, your comments are appreciated.
Whilst this in itself is a very important issue, it is only one issue.
Where are the policies about social welfare, raising the standard of eductaion, improving/updating the Baht30 health scheme and so on ?
I would have thought to “grass roots” people (horrible term I admit) these things were also of great significance ?
Or is it that they are already satisfied with the “neccessities of life” ?
It’s not what I see in my travels around Thailand.
I see people in need.
I see people who would probably only give blood if there was some financial benefit to doing it – not so called “democratic” symbolism.
Are the people in the soi aware of these things ?
It is certainly a complex ‘game’, and the endgame, ‘end of game’ is worry. Marc cites the following:
They agree that the parliament should be dissolved and new elections held so as to “return power to the people.”
What people? is Thaksin really a leader of people power? Maybe Chaowalit? Its the question of democracy in Thailand, what is it? Thaksin was in the process of dismantling democracry, to see the Reds as democrats is not easy for me.
In a way, “the yellow closing down air-port were the cause of the last government demise” – at least accelerating the process. Anupong and the service chiefs used the occasion to demonstrate beyond doubt and in the most public way possible their opposition to Somchai’s PPP government – through their joint appearance on national TV on 26 November calling for the government to step down. In the extreme context of the nation’s international airports being occupied by PAD, the message could not have been clearer: “No matter what – we want you gone”. With the military arm’s stance made so clear, no surprise that the judicial arm in turn saw their way to dissolving PPP just a few days later on 2 December – by then, effectively, delivering just a coup de grace shot.
Being the dominant group with the advantage in the control of the use of force, I do hope Surayudh, Prem, and Anupong understand the consequences of their actions. I think, it is in the best interest of the country that they response to the Red’s grievances. If they select the action that will maximize their strategic goals and objectives, and completely ignore the Red’s demand, it would lead to a zero-sum game, which would harms Thailand’s national interests both in the short and longer terms.
[…] are the Red Shirts protesting in the streets? Marc Askew interviewed the rally participants and summarized their demands: They agree that the parliament should be dissolved and new elections held so as to “return power […]
The reds aren’t counting on Thaksin completely, and have made notable efforts to reduce his presence in their messages. But his role as the person who was first to include them in the power structure will remain part of his legacy, regardless of his other faults, because it was a revolution in Thai politics for better or worse.
Your Hitler analogy is, like every other frothing Hitler analogy on the internet, both myopic and inaccurate. The reds want the slice of the pie they’ve always been denied by the patronage system and elitism endemic in Thai culture. Certainly they will package it as “democracy” but it’s more base than that, just as most leftist/socialist revolutions tend to have a vengeful component that ultimately corrupts their idealist ambitions. What the reds want is redistribution, probably in their favor, which they call equity. Thaksin’s obvious failings as an egalitarian don’t matter so much in this equation, as they are using him as the necessary half of a faustian bargain for power.
All of which supports your credibility argument, but there are two important factors that your dismissal of the reds overlooks: 1) the existing regime has even less credibility, since it champions democracy but is in fact a military-royalist oligarchy, and that the reds have legitimate grievances that make it arguably necessary for them to make any deal with anyone who will support them. Thaksin+rural poor is just another coalition. Singling them out as unique in their moral failings is ignorant.
And not only did you botch the idiom, you misspelled my name. Twice. Eye on the ball indeed.
As a speck of dust, a Thai citizen clearly ranks far below a royal dog. So no Thai must forget this! A Thai must never mind prostrating next to a royal canine in the presence of a royal person. In fact, the Prime Minister was lucky to be allowed a chair to sit on. It saddens me that Thai people are treated so summarily, but some of them may like it this way. In these days when gods can be less relied on, this may be one thing we should do away with. If the royal family is wise, as many assume them to be, they should lead the change to the way the people are properly honored.
It is also understood by some people that HMK keeps the dog as constant companion because he is lonely. This is something that only his family can remedy. But it would be in good taste to keep a dog out of any official gathering, charming as it is.
Looking through that list of “dishonest traits” you choose to attribute selectively to “Thaksin/Red Shirts”, I didn’t spot one that doesn’t apply equally well to the present government and its media mouthpieces – not to mention preceding governments back to at least the last junta-installed one. In fact, the list stands quite well as a summary of Thai S.O.P. generally…..
Still, as you pointed out yourself earlier: “demonizing those who disagree with you is par for the course in extremist politics…..”
I consider myself part of these rural hordes and am proud of it. They are what the masses of Thailand are like. It is the reality confronting all Thais. The days of kowtowing and prostrating should be over. All Thais should be treated with dignity they deserve as bona fide people of a free country, and not as brainless subjects of a pseudo-benevolent despot.
The sentence: “Lord Buddha has so far been unavailable for comment” is either naive or sly. If it is intended to be symbolic, it is rather in bad taste. Why couldn’t the writer say forthrightly what he wanted to say regarding the matter? As a practicing Buddhist, I think the Buddha should be kept beyond contamination. If one wants to take issue with his teaching points or his followers, please say so. The Buddha should not be made part of anybody’s piece of sarcasm. Or is this the normal standard of a presumably civilized newspaper?
The outcome of conflict is usually conditioned by status and interest. The dominant group with the advantage in its control of the State apparatus and the Use of Force, not only can evolve opinions favorable to the maintenance of its privileged position, but can, in virtue of its military and economic superiority, easily ignore the working class Red Movement grievances. Seeing the movement of the military forces in the last few days, I recognize that the Thai military runs the country. The three who runs the show are General Surayudh who orders the Special Forces in from Lopburi, General Prem provides protection for Aphisit to stay at the safe house at the 11 Regiment of the king guards, and General Anupong coordinates the military forces throughout Bangkok. It’s already a coup without doing a coup. For this reason, I don’t think they will yield to the Red demands.
Interesting why 100,000 people feel they can topple a Government governing 60 million people.
Business interruption notwithstanding the instigator of it all is a poor loser, a man with no fiscal responsibility, who ran from justice and uses the word ‘democracy’ as his catch cry.
Will greed have no limits? It is all getting a bit boring now. If this were Thai’s about Thai’s as was the original party, perhaps it would carry some merit. Right now a whole country is turning against this movement and rabble.
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Thai style democracy?
For those who are so offended or disturbed by Abhisit prostrating himself before King Bhumibol, were you as offended and upset when Suchinda and Chamlong did the same? Or did you cheer with the rest of Thailand?
And do you think Thaksin didn’t do the same, just because you don’t have a photo of it?
Thaksin and the Brahmins
[…] at the gates of Government House, amidst a heavy security presence. The ritual was concluded by a Brahmin priest (incorrectly termed a “witch doctor” by some reporters, who placed a Buddha statue at […]
A red show of strength, but then what?
Nganadeeleg could be right that history, eventually (but could take maybe 5-10 years or even longer), co uld be on their side. But I doubt history will ever look favorably on the record of one Thaksin Shinawatra whose record of extra-judicial killing rampage, divisive politics, mafia-like organized massive corruption, and rampant vote-buying ‘democracy’ would never pass as Thai hero or model of sort.
But everyone’s entitled to their opinion of course.
BTW. . . has anyone at New Mandala shed their blood lately for the Thaksin cause?
A campaign for Suwicha
[…] tendencies. Long-time New Mandala readers may recall that last year Andrew and I launched a campaign to have a new baby elephant at Taronga Zoo in Sydney named “Suwicha” […]
Thailand and lese majeste
[…] to draw attention to the injustices that come with the enforcement of Thailand’s lese majeste law. As Andrew and I wrote last year, “[b]oth Suwicha Thakor and the baby elephant are going […]
Son of an elephant: Suwicha misses out
[…] of the open-ended and relatively democratic competition for “Suwicha” (who was eventually given the banal moniker of “Luuk chai”), the new elephant will be named from one of the […]
Suwicha Thakor and lese majeste
[…] Zoo in Sydney named “Suwicha” (р╕кр╕╕р╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▓) in honour of lese majeste prisoner, Suwicha Thakor. That campaign was unsuccessful, although we hope it generated some more awareness of […]
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
Thanks Marc, your comments are appreciated.
Whilst this in itself is a very important issue, it is only one issue.
Where are the policies about social welfare, raising the standard of eductaion, improving/updating the Baht30 health scheme and so on ?
I would have thought to “grass roots” people (horrible term I admit) these things were also of great significance ?
Or is it that they are already satisfied with the “neccessities of life” ?
It’s not what I see in my travels around Thailand.
I see people in need.
I see people who would probably only give blood if there was some financial benefit to doing it – not so called “democratic” symbolism.
Are the people in the soi aware of these things ?
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
It is certainly a complex ‘game’, and the endgame, ‘end of game’ is worry. Marc cites the following:
They agree that the parliament should be dissolved and new elections held so as to “return power to the people.”
What people? is Thaksin really a leader of people power? Maybe Chaowalit? Its the question of democracy in Thailand, what is it? Thaksin was in the process of dismantling democracry, to see the Reds as democrats is not easy for me.
A red show of strength, but then what?
@ Tarrin (#18)
In a way, “the yellow closing down air-port were the cause of the last government demise” – at least accelerating the process. Anupong and the service chiefs used the occasion to demonstrate beyond doubt and in the most public way possible their opposition to Somchai’s PPP government – through their joint appearance on national TV on 26 November calling for the government to step down. In the extreme context of the nation’s international airports being occupied by PAD, the message could not have been clearer: “No matter what – we want you gone”. With the military arm’s stance made so clear, no surprise that the judicial arm in turn saw their way to dissolving PPP just a few days later on 2 December – by then, effectively, delivering just a coup de grace shot.
More images from red Bangkok
Being the dominant group with the advantage in the control of the use of force, I do hope Surayudh, Prem, and Anupong understand the consequences of their actions. I think, it is in the best interest of the country that they response to the Red’s grievances. If they select the action that will maximize their strategic goals and objectives, and completely ignore the Red’s demand, it would lead to a zero-sum game, which would harms Thailand’s national interests both in the short and longer terms.
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
[…] are the Red Shirts protesting in the streets? Marc Askew interviewed the rally participants and summarized their demands: They agree that the parliament should be dissolved and new elections held so as to “return power […]
Open thread on red protests
Werner:
The reds aren’t counting on Thaksin completely, and have made notable efforts to reduce his presence in their messages. But his role as the person who was first to include them in the power structure will remain part of his legacy, regardless of his other faults, because it was a revolution in Thai politics for better or worse.
Your Hitler analogy is, like every other frothing Hitler analogy on the internet, both myopic and inaccurate. The reds want the slice of the pie they’ve always been denied by the patronage system and elitism endemic in Thai culture. Certainly they will package it as “democracy” but it’s more base than that, just as most leftist/socialist revolutions tend to have a vengeful component that ultimately corrupts their idealist ambitions. What the reds want is redistribution, probably in their favor, which they call equity. Thaksin’s obvious failings as an egalitarian don’t matter so much in this equation, as they are using him as the necessary half of a faustian bargain for power.
All of which supports your credibility argument, but there are two important factors that your dismissal of the reds overlooks: 1) the existing regime has even less credibility, since it champions democracy but is in fact a military-royalist oligarchy, and that the reds have legitimate grievances that make it arguably necessary for them to make any deal with anyone who will support them. Thaksin+rural poor is just another coalition. Singling them out as unique in their moral failings is ignorant.
And not only did you botch the idiom, you misspelled my name. Twice. Eye on the ball indeed.
Thai style democracy?
As a speck of dust, a Thai citizen clearly ranks far below a royal dog. So no Thai must forget this! A Thai must never mind prostrating next to a royal canine in the presence of a royal person. In fact, the Prime Minister was lucky to be allowed a chair to sit on. It saddens me that Thai people are treated so summarily, but some of them may like it this way. In these days when gods can be less relied on, this may be one thing we should do away with. If the royal family is wise, as many assume them to be, they should lead the change to the way the people are properly honored.
It is also understood by some people that HMK keeps the dog as constant companion because he is lonely. This is something that only his family can remedy. But it would be in good taste to keep a dog out of any official gathering, charming as it is.
Thai style democracy?
@ Frank Lee (#29)…..
Looking through that list of “dishonest traits” you choose to attribute selectively to “Thaksin/Red Shirts”, I didn’t spot one that doesn’t apply equally well to the present government and its media mouthpieces – not to mention preceding governments back to at least the last junta-installed one. In fact, the list stands quite well as a summary of Thai S.O.P. generally…..
Still, as you pointed out yourself earlier: “demonizing those who disagree with you is par for the course in extremist politics…..”
Bangkok Post introduces “UDD rural hordes”
I consider myself part of these rural hordes and am proud of it. They are what the masses of Thailand are like. It is the reality confronting all Thais. The days of kowtowing and prostrating should be over. All Thais should be treated with dignity they deserve as bona fide people of a free country, and not as brainless subjects of a pseudo-benevolent despot.
“…this could get serious”
The sentence: “Lord Buddha has so far been unavailable for comment” is either naive or sly. If it is intended to be symbolic, it is rather in bad taste. Why couldn’t the writer say forthrightly what he wanted to say regarding the matter? As a practicing Buddhist, I think the Buddha should be kept beyond contamination. If one wants to take issue with his teaching points or his followers, please say so. The Buddha should not be made part of anybody’s piece of sarcasm. Or is this the normal standard of a presumably civilized newspaper?
Making sense of the verdict
Patiwat: “OF COURSE the wise and infallible Supreme Court judges made the correct ruling”.
Meticulous Patiwat inadvertently omitted ‘incorruptible’ to go with ‘wise and infallible’ to describe Thailand’s Supreme Court judges.
I am definitely very pleased that my friend Patiwat found the light, finally.
‘Guilty as charged’ and Patiwat of course agrees.
More images from red Bangkok
The outcome of conflict is usually conditioned by status and interest. The dominant group with the advantage in its control of the State apparatus and the Use of Force, not only can evolve opinions favorable to the maintenance of its privileged position, but can, in virtue of its military and economic superiority, easily ignore the working class Red Movement grievances. Seeing the movement of the military forces in the last few days, I recognize that the Thai military runs the country. The three who runs the show are General Surayudh who orders the Special Forces in from Lopburi, General Prem provides protection for Aphisit to stay at the safe house at the 11 Regiment of the king guards, and General Anupong coordinates the military forces throughout Bangkok. It’s already a coup without doing a coup. For this reason, I don’t think they will yield to the Red demands.
More images from red Bangkok
Interesting why 100,000 people feel they can topple a Government governing 60 million people.
Business interruption notwithstanding the instigator of it all is a poor loser, a man with no fiscal responsibility, who ran from justice and uses the word ‘democracy’ as his catch cry.
Will greed have no limits? It is all getting a bit boring now. If this were Thai’s about Thai’s as was the original party, perhaps it would carry some merit. Right now a whole country is turning against this movement and rabble.
Som Num Na.