Simon, thanks for the interesting posts on the game. But i wondered what would be the feelings of the other Lao, the ethnic Lao who are normally sidelined in the political and development conversation in the country. Do they feel nationalistic as well?
I agree with Hla Oo on the Burmese leadership’s view of China since the most successful overland invasion in history has been from that direction. The mix in ethnicity of men fighting in both internal and external conflicts is also a historical fact. Burmese communists also fought in the Vietnam War just as their Chinese counterparts did in Burma when China openly backed the CPB.
For the junta, it’s been a marriage of convenience with China, and the question is how easily it can dump China and run away with the West given the degree of interdependence that exists today unlike four decades ago. The West is hardly enamoured by the junta anyhow, and China scorned? The generals may yet make a badly botched job of it and get their comeuppance.
The lengthy extract from U Kala has also been inserted in the article ‘Ava’ in Wiki – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ava – taking up an inordinate amount of space compared with the size of the article . It certainly is the most famous duel in history that every Burmese school kid knows.
I’d like to draw your attention to today’s print edition of the Bangkok Post. It publishes on two full pages, articles about the Crown Prince, as a special section, named “The Big Story”. I can’t explain why. There seems to be no special occasion. One article, titled “Crowning Achivement” deals with his being declared heir to the throne in 1972. (At first, I thought today is the anniversary of that event. But it’s not.) Another article has a very interesting title: “The King in Waiting” (I thought we aren’t allowed to say anything about any future reign? After all HMK is expected to live a very long, long life. Besides, didn’t Thaksin get into troubles with this kind of discussion?) More interesting, the article lists all his marriages and all his children including the four sons from his second wife. It names them all, both mother and sons. This is VERY strange. Any of you have explantion? (I checked the online edition but couldn’t this special section.)
For sure sport has always been a way for politicians to endoctrinate their people ( berlin 1936). During the 25th SEA games that I covered as photo journalist I photographed all portrait of lao leaders hold up by people but also noticed portrait of Uncle Ho and of course king of Thailand. From quarter final Lao supporters started to hold posters of Lamnao, their soccer star with a text saying “Lamano you are our hero” a new sign from young laotian looking for more freedom?
If Chris Beale is angry over how Handley writes about the king’s role in 1992, then he must be absolutely livid about what he says about the palace’s relationship to the events of October 1976.
It’s strange how royalists posing as liberals tend to skip over the events of 1976 when discussing the merits of the dynasty.
Interestingly the reports of systematic torture in Patani, Yala, and Narathiwat had a peak with the Samak/Somchai govt (http://bit.ly/73ckD7) and to be honest, I have no reason to doubt that Thaksin’s incapability hawkishly blundered the whole situation out of control. (http://bit.ly/54EmEO) Abhisit has the ungreatful job to clean up the Puea Thai’s predecessors’ mess at least there is some talk about more autonomy for the South these days and martial law had been lifted in three districts of Sonkhla.
I can understand all that aggrevation about Bangkok’s political saga, but that partisan Abhisit bashing doesn’t help reconciliation in Patani. What do you want to do? Send more security forces? In my opinion, the govt needs to reflect on Castells “exclusion of the excluders by the excluded” idea again and there are some – though not groundbreaking – signals by the Bongkok Empire these days that were overdue for a while now.
I take exception to your accusations of me being abusive to planB on here. That was a rather hysterical comment. Please point out where this has taken place in any of my previous posts.
I can take criticism so long as it is correct and truthful.
Do not attempt to combine my point of views with those of Charles F. I don’t know the guy or his history. That’s very unprofessional on your part. Address me directly and about what I have posted, not what Charles F has posted.
I have merely responded to an accusation from PlanB in order to engage him in a debate and he has failed to debate me other than to launch into a diatribe without pointing out the “lies” he has claimed I have made, “line for line” (if it isn’t diatribe, then you tell me what it is).
I have been involved with the KNU since 1986 in one way or another so have a fair idea about what is happening there as well as the political situation in the country. I’ve also got a degree in journalism, international relations, strategic studies and finishing my PhD in Asian Studies, so please do not presume I am an idiot or not capable of engaging in debate without becoming abusive. I really take exception to that.
As for PlanB’s point of view, one minute he is defending the SPDC, the next he is admonishing them for being evil.
How does one present a reasoned argument to somebody like that?
Apart from that, he has failed to point out the “lies” he claims I have told “line by line”. So I suggest you get off your high horse and don’t cast aspersions where there are none to be cast (thought I am awaiting your response to point them out to me as requested above).
“….. You two have not been the first westerners involved in the border battles, already in the late eighties several French and Belgians took part in the fighting with no real effect whatsoever other than that some of them got killed. And since them the minorities that still fight have lost massive ground – they lost Manerplaw, the DKBA split from the KNU (where the KNU and its mostly Christian leadership was not that innocent either), and so on.”
Where in any of my posts have I ever said I’m the first “westener” involved with ethnic minorities in Burma? Or even suggested that? Where in any of my posts have I ever said that a military solution will solve the problems of Burma? You draw a pretty long bow with these types of assertions as I have never even hinted at that.
I’ll be in Thailand in February, so would love to drop around and have a yarn with you if you are still there.
For most Vietnamese the only thing that counted at the SEA Games was that Vietnam should win gold in the football, preferably against Thailand but as it transpired Malaysia (not a national team in contention for over 20 years) beat Vietnam. Anyone who was in Ho Chi Minh after Vietnam beat lowly-ranked Cambodia last Friday night would be aware of how enthusiastic Vietnamese were to see Vietnam win gold.
However, Vietnam finished narrowly behind Thailand in the final gold medal count and I suppose the parallel is with the typically poor performance of the Philippines by comparision with Vietnam – perhaps a metaphor for the success or otherwise of cirrent development trajectories – that has some parallels with how poorly India fares at such competitions compared to China although of course India fares better economically these days than the Philippines (the latter seemingly getting nowhere fast).
That aside the SEA Games is a relatively interesting spectacle and many in the Lao PDR seem to think they have come of age – at least in the sporting arena – in a way that was not apparent before the SEA Games in Vientiane. Perhaps the post-modernists are involved in a little bit of “intellectual masturbation” trying to deconstruct the SEA Games in ways that participants and spectators do not but let’s see what comes out in the wash.
Yes, I know that you’re a photojournalist; I’ve seen some of your work. I also know that you’ve been in Burma.
You asked me what I see in the future of Burma. Well, this conflict began before I was even born, and from the looks of things, it’ll probably still be going on when you and I are dust.
Several years ago the Thai’s gave free rein – to a point – to the KNLA and others fighting along the border. They pretty much used them as a buffer. Nothing new there – the Israeli’s did the same with the Christian Phalange in Lebanon.
There comes a point when they’ve outlived their usefulness and are cast aside. We’re seeing that now with the KNLA being pressured by the Thai government.
The KNLA will continue to sputter along, conducting hit and run nuisance raids against the SPDC and their slave troops, the DKBA. They’ll never succeed in winning any ground, but by figuratively “showing the flag” they’ll keep a hand in the game.
When I was in Mae Sot I told a KNLA colonel that as far as I could tell, the war on the border was lost. The forces arrayed against them were just to great to overcome. While others would disagree with that pessimistic assertion, surprisingly enough, the colonel agreed with me. He replied that the best they could hope for was to try and hang on until the political situation inside Burma changed.
I believe that the way the U.S. is dealing with the SPDC is wrong. Talking, with no incentives for the SPDC to change their ways isn’t going to work. It’s been tried before.
I personally believe that a better way would be for the U.S. and others to negotiate with the SPDC, while at the same time arming and training the various ethnic groups. They could turn them on and off, like a spigot, as someone on New Mandala mentioned in a different post.
At the same time, strict control would be exercised on the groups, to keep them in line. Some of them border on banditry, and bear close supervision, less they take the place of the SPDC and visit the same crimes on the populace.
I know all about the French contingent, and the methods they used to discipline the KNLA troops under their command.
I also know that Bo Mya shot himself in the foot with the way he dealt with the Buddhists within his ranks.
A lot of mistakes have been made. Learn from them and move on.
The U.S. prides itself on going after those who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. In your home country we jailed them by the thousands, and hanged over a hundred. Just recently the U.S. sent an 88 year old man back to Germany to start trial for war crimes.
In the former Yugoslavia, the U.S. led the charge to apprehend and bring to justice those who committed war crimes. No matter which side they were on.
But the U.S. doesn’t seem willing to go after those in the SPDC who commit war crimes just as bad as those in Europe.
It’s as if the victims there aren’t worth as much as as the lives of Europeans. This needs to change.
People on this board, New Mandala, argued the merits of sanctions against the SPDC. Some here feel that the sanctions only hurt the populace, and did nothing to the Burmese ruling elite. To some extant I think they have a point. Australia allowed – actually welcomed – the offspring of SPDC members to attend school there.
Luxury goods were allowed into the country. Money traveled in and out of American and European banks. Western oil interests sold drilling equipment to the junta; then provided personnel and technical expertise (Total).
None of this should have occurred. But money trumps all.
My presence in a KA camp contributed next to nothing in the grand scheme of things. I told one of them that I thought it was a waste of time, but he replied that it wasn’t, that by my – and my friends who accompanied me – showing up, it let their soldiers know that they weren’t forgotten. So, in that respect it was successful.
As for leading a charge into an SPDC camp – not happening.
You and I both know that a lot of foreigners drift in and out of camps along the border. Wearing their 5.11 ATAS (all tactical and shit) clothes they try to tell the various resistance fighters how the cow ate the cabbage. Water off a ducks back. These people are going to fight this war their own way, and any foreigner who thinks he’s going to waltz in and be a game changer is dreaming.
The ONLY person I know of that has actually gone in and made a real difference is Dave Everett. And he paid dearly.
Oh yeah, one last thought. I don’t take myself too seriously, and neither should you. My ego is intact, and I can make fun of myself. So the criticisms leveled at me are falling short. I’m no Mike Hoare, and never pretended to be.
Ko Hla Oo
I am sorry you missed the point.
Please read my consequences section of post #54.
There should never be a debate about Justifiable killings. No killing is ever justifiable. Even the most evil ones have their own “justifiable reasons and excuses”. Proven here SPDC or otherwise.
Incidentally you missed the “the one that got away part”.
no body can shoot a target 500 meters away w/o a scope with cheap rifle.
But any one can shoot down someone from 50 meters with an AK47 easily every time.
That is the point.
The consequences? Dave, Charles F and their ilk have spelt them out better than I need to.
Charles F
“The SPDC and Tatmadaw are evil and need to be destroyed. They’re committing genocide against their own people. The leaders need to be taken to The Hague, or just hanged where they’re found” Hmm:
Stating well known facts, to justify defective reasoning.
If you are really concerned with travesties one race against another how come you and your ilk are not in Tibet, Congo or DPRK?
You chose Myanmar because it was safe for your overweight ass. Bash-A-Junta has always been SAFE and POPULAR. Don’t you think assisting with pay back you stated just might not quite fit that mold in most New Mandala readers’ mind?
The consequences of your contribution:
1)Justified the Tamadaw well known atrocious 4 Cuts strategy, with unspeakable results that you will use to again justify your existence!
2) Xenophobia? That word being beaten to death. As long as you realize you are the “Xeno” than your contribution should be exemplary.
Giving aids to sooth the victims is one great example.
Speaking out against SPDC evil deed is another good one.
I can not think of any other ones beyond mentioned that will not cause “phobia”. Can you?
“sooth the victim”тЙа “Effecting killings by victims” so lightheartedly presented.
I took side long ago to expose you and your ilk’s misconceived nefarious justified acts against the Burmese.
Incidentally Burmese = 100+ethnic group within theUN recognized boundary of Myanmar.
I think Laos hosts the game quite successfully. However, I agree that there are some problems regarding the dissemination of event schedule and tickets, as mentioned. In my opinion, one of the key factor is due to IT systems and infrastructure in Laos. I am doing my PhD in Sydney. I have followed and watched the games online almost every day. I was disappointed with the official website which was extremely slow in the first few days. It was very hard to find needed information in the website. Also the website is only in English as an official language used in the games. There is no translation to Lao language. Actually, I can not find any websites in Lao language provided by the organization (the government of Laos). I think this is quite pity for Laos that did not take this opportunity to develop and leverage its information systems and infrastructure in a similar manner to the way it built the sport facilities like National Sport Complex. I do not mean that Laos must have state-of-the-art information systems for the games. But the government should see this as a chance to initiate IT development which in turn will assist social and economic development of Laos in the long run.
Arthurson – thanks for your post.
Yes – I was referring to the October ’76, massacre (“Tula”), as was The Economist in its’ Samak obituary.
I do not know anything about Samak’s involvement in the ’73 massacre – or indeed, if he played any role at all.
This is a problem in Thailand. I do not understand why the author correlates the matter to other SEA countries. This is an example of some Thai people’s ideology that Thailand is always superior to many countries in the region in terms of democracy and economy. They fail to acknowledge that a country like Singapore is much more democratic than Thailand. Also, because of its democratic stability, Malaysia’s economy grows gradually and passes its rival, Thailand.
First of all, i am not an academic – i am a photojournalist. That means that i can’t sit in an office and take my photos, but have to be close to where things are happening. That means that long ago, when i still took photos there at the borders, i have seen a few not so nice things as well ( i also had the opportunity to see things from the other side of the fence while on an official journalist’s visa and around Wa State with the obligatory MI guards, which was enlightening in many ways).
Furthermore, some of the academics you deride here have been involved in the borders for a very long time, they are just not as public with their involvement as you two are.
People have been “off the fence” for a long time, and do tediously work towards possible solutions. They just don’t work towards a solution on the battle field, but through negotiations, and often against a simplified western opinion fueled of “boycott”, “good vs. evil”, the sanctification of Aung San Suu Kyi (who has made massive mistakes in the negotiations in the 90’s), etc.
There will be no solution on the battle field, history shows this clearly. You two have not been the first westerners involved in the border battles, already in the late eighties several French and Belgians took part in the fighting with no real effect whatsoever other than that some of them got killed. And since them the minorities that still fight have lost massive ground – they lost Manerplaw, the DKBA split from the KNU (where the KNU and its mostly Christian leadership was not that innocent either), and so on.
The situation in Burma may be black and white for you, that is a convenient position to take, but of you read articles by the likes of Thant Myint-U, grandson of U-Thant, you will see that a less confrontational approach might more realistic when facing the incredibly complex mess in Burma.
But, can you tell us, what outcome do you see, how will Burma come to some sort of peace, in you view? Do you think that western governments should not negotiate? What should, in your opinion, western governments do in their engagement with Burma?
I don’t mind debating my activities, but I think it can be done without the name calling and other personal attacks.
Insofar as my assisting the Karenni Army or other groups opposed to the SPDC, I have done nothing to be ashamed of.
For me – and I am only speaking for myself – it is a black and white issue.
The SPDC and the Tatmadaw are evil. The Karenni Army, while not as pure as the driven snow, is composed of men who have personally suffered at the hands of the corrupt and murderous Burmese government. They have been burned out of their homes, had family members raped and beaten, their property stolen, and forced into IDP or refugee camps.
Just so that you and others following this thread know, while in Burma with the Karenni Army, I didn’t carry a weapon, though one was offered. I didn’t kill anyone either, though I did verbally abuse one guy.
My coming to be in Burma was a direct result of a book I read that turned out to be chock full of lies, written by a self styled “tri-continental soldier” ( I still laugh every time I read that). I won’t name the book, as I don’t want to publicize it anymore than it has been, but you probably know which one I’m referring to, as well as knowing who the author is.
I saw alot of suffering over there. Simple peasant people burned out of their homes and forced to live in squalid refugee camps, or like wild animals out in the jungle.
I saw some really ugly things. I still can’t get the images out of my head.
I’m not some detached academic, sitting around debating the relative merits of the SPDC vs the NLD vs the KNU, etc., etc. I went over there, crossed the border, saw what I needed to, then made a decision based on that.
I’m 58 years old. Yet I huffed and puffed my overweight ass up into those mountains to see what was what. I came away knowing the following:
The SPDC and Tatmadaw are evil and need to be destroyed. They’re committing genocide against their own people. The leaders need to be taken to The Hague, or just hanged where they’re found.
People need to get off the fence. Quit telling yourselves and each other that that the SPDC is xenophobic, “but if we just talk to them perhaps we can reach an understanding.” They understand all too well – that you’re chumps and will do nothing more than flap your lips and issue “findings”. How’s that working out for you? About as well as”Hope and Change” is here I would wager.
I don’t know if my way is right. But you academics won’t admit that your way might just be wrong.
I am sorry, but “PlanB” has a point, and you two are about as abusive as he is. From what i can read out of his posts, his point is that the presence of western combatants in the border areas has possibly a very detrimental effect by feeding the paranoia of the SPDC regarding the west and therefore problematic to the efforts to find some sort of a solution to this mess, and that he feels that you are on a similar moral level because you take active part in this war, in which also the side you are fighting for is not exactly free of human rights abuses.
Again, i am sorry, but you two have to accept that there are different views on the highly complicated situation in Burma, and that many believe that things aren’t as black and white as you seem to make them out to be. Not every critic of your activities is a SPDC apologist, and it should be permitted to question you and your motives. You both do not exactly keep a low profile either, therefore you will have to face criticism.
Even though you might not see it this way, but there is a certain moral conundrum in your active and well publicized participation in this war.
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What’s in a region?
Simon, thanks for the interesting posts on the game. But i wondered what would be the feelings of the other Lao, the ethnic Lao who are normally sidelined in the political and development conversation in the country. Do they feel nationalistic as well?
Vietnam vets (PLA) to fight in Burma?
http://www.shanland.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2860:chinese-volunteers-return&catid=85:politics&Itemid=266
Vietnam vets (PLA) to fight in Burma?
I agree with Hla Oo on the Burmese leadership’s view of China since the most successful overland invasion in history has been from that direction. The mix in ethnicity of men fighting in both internal and external conflicts is also a historical fact. Burmese communists also fought in the Vietnam War just as their Chinese counterparts did in Burma when China openly backed the CPB.
For the junta, it’s been a marriage of convenience with China, and the question is how easily it can dump China and run away with the West given the degree of interdependence that exists today unlike four decades ago. The West is hardly enamoured by the junta anyhow, and China scorned? The generals may yet make a badly botched job of it and get their comeuppance.
The lengthy extract from U Kala has also been inserted in the article ‘Ava’ in Wiki – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ava – taking up an inordinate amount of space compared with the size of the article . It certainly is the most famous duel in history that every Burmese school kid knows.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
To my fellow loyal subjects,
I’d like to draw your attention to today’s print edition of the Bangkok Post. It publishes on two full pages, articles about the Crown Prince, as a special section, named “The Big Story”. I can’t explain why. There seems to be no special occasion. One article, titled “Crowning Achivement” deals with his being declared heir to the throne in 1972. (At first, I thought today is the anniversary of that event. But it’s not.) Another article has a very interesting title: “The King in Waiting” (I thought we aren’t allowed to say anything about any future reign? After all HMK is expected to live a very long, long life. Besides, didn’t Thaksin get into troubles with this kind of discussion?) More interesting, the article lists all his marriages and all his children including the four sons from his second wife. It names them all, both mother and sons. This is VERY strange. Any of you have explantion? (I checked the online edition but couldn’t this special section.)
What’s in a region?
For sure sport has always been a way for politicians to endoctrinate their people ( berlin 1936). During the 25th SEA games that I covered as photo journalist I photographed all portrait of lao leaders hold up by people but also noticed portrait of Uncle Ho and of course king of Thailand. From quarter final Lao supporters started to hold posters of Lamnao, their soccer star with a text saying “Lamano you are our hero” a new sign from young laotian looking for more freedom?
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
If Chris Beale is angry over how Handley writes about the king’s role in 1992, then he must be absolutely livid about what he says about the palace’s relationship to the events of October 1976.
It’s strange how royalists posing as liberals tend to skip over the events of 1976 when discussing the merits of the dynasty.
Or maybe not so strange.
What happens in Yala…
> Hi Susie,
Interestingly the reports of systematic torture in Patani, Yala, and Narathiwat had a peak with the Samak/Somchai govt (http://bit.ly/73ckD7) and to be honest, I have no reason to doubt that Thaksin’s incapability hawkishly blundered the whole situation out of control. (http://bit.ly/54EmEO) Abhisit has the ungreatful job to clean up the Puea Thai’s predecessors’ mess at least there is some talk about more autonomy for the South these days and martial law had been lifted in three districts of Sonkhla.
I can understand all that aggrevation about Bangkok’s political saga, but that partisan Abhisit bashing doesn’t help reconciliation in Patani. What do you want to do? Send more security forces? In my opinion, the govt needs to reflect on Castells “exclusion of the excluders by the excluded” idea again and there are some – though not groundbreaking – signals by the Bongkok Empire these days that were overdue for a while now.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Nic,
I take exception to your accusations of me being abusive to planB on here. That was a rather hysterical comment. Please point out where this has taken place in any of my previous posts.
I can take criticism so long as it is correct and truthful.
Do not attempt to combine my point of views with those of Charles F. I don’t know the guy or his history. That’s very unprofessional on your part. Address me directly and about what I have posted, not what Charles F has posted.
I have merely responded to an accusation from PlanB in order to engage him in a debate and he has failed to debate me other than to launch into a diatribe without pointing out the “lies” he has claimed I have made, “line for line” (if it isn’t diatribe, then you tell me what it is).
I have been involved with the KNU since 1986 in one way or another so have a fair idea about what is happening there as well as the political situation in the country. I’ve also got a degree in journalism, international relations, strategic studies and finishing my PhD in Asian Studies, so please do not presume I am an idiot or not capable of engaging in debate without becoming abusive. I really take exception to that.
As for PlanB’s point of view, one minute he is defending the SPDC, the next he is admonishing them for being evil.
How does one present a reasoned argument to somebody like that?
Apart from that, he has failed to point out the “lies” he claims I have told “line by line”. So I suggest you get off your high horse and don’t cast aspersions where there are none to be cast (thought I am awaiting your response to point them out to me as requested above).
“….. You two have not been the first westerners involved in the border battles, already in the late eighties several French and Belgians took part in the fighting with no real effect whatsoever other than that some of them got killed. And since them the minorities that still fight have lost massive ground – they lost Manerplaw, the DKBA split from the KNU (where the KNU and its mostly Christian leadership was not that innocent either), and so on.”
Where in any of my posts have I ever said I’m the first “westener” involved with ethnic minorities in Burma? Or even suggested that? Where in any of my posts have I ever said that a military solution will solve the problems of Burma? You draw a pretty long bow with these types of assertions as I have never even hinted at that.
I’ll be in Thailand in February, so would love to drop around and have a yarn with you if you are still there.
Cheers,
Dave
What’s in a region?
For most Vietnamese the only thing that counted at the SEA Games was that Vietnam should win gold in the football, preferably against Thailand but as it transpired Malaysia (not a national team in contention for over 20 years) beat Vietnam. Anyone who was in Ho Chi Minh after Vietnam beat lowly-ranked Cambodia last Friday night would be aware of how enthusiastic Vietnamese were to see Vietnam win gold.
However, Vietnam finished narrowly behind Thailand in the final gold medal count and I suppose the parallel is with the typically poor performance of the Philippines by comparision with Vietnam – perhaps a metaphor for the success or otherwise of cirrent development trajectories – that has some parallels with how poorly India fares at such competitions compared to China although of course India fares better economically these days than the Philippines (the latter seemingly getting nowhere fast).
That aside the SEA Games is a relatively interesting spectacle and many in the Lao PDR seem to think they have come of age – at least in the sporting arena – in a way that was not apparent before the SEA Games in Vientiane. Perhaps the post-modernists are involved in a little bit of “intellectual masturbation” trying to deconstruct the SEA Games in ways that participants and spectators do not but let’s see what comes out in the wash.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Nick Nostitz,
Yes, I know that you’re a photojournalist; I’ve seen some of your work. I also know that you’ve been in Burma.
You asked me what I see in the future of Burma. Well, this conflict began before I was even born, and from the looks of things, it’ll probably still be going on when you and I are dust.
Several years ago the Thai’s gave free rein – to a point – to the KNLA and others fighting along the border. They pretty much used them as a buffer. Nothing new there – the Israeli’s did the same with the Christian Phalange in Lebanon.
There comes a point when they’ve outlived their usefulness and are cast aside. We’re seeing that now with the KNLA being pressured by the Thai government.
The KNLA will continue to sputter along, conducting hit and run nuisance raids against the SPDC and their slave troops, the DKBA. They’ll never succeed in winning any ground, but by figuratively “showing the flag” they’ll keep a hand in the game.
When I was in Mae Sot I told a KNLA colonel that as far as I could tell, the war on the border was lost. The forces arrayed against them were just to great to overcome. While others would disagree with that pessimistic assertion, surprisingly enough, the colonel agreed with me. He replied that the best they could hope for was to try and hang on until the political situation inside Burma changed.
I believe that the way the U.S. is dealing with the SPDC is wrong. Talking, with no incentives for the SPDC to change their ways isn’t going to work. It’s been tried before.
I personally believe that a better way would be for the U.S. and others to negotiate with the SPDC, while at the same time arming and training the various ethnic groups. They could turn them on and off, like a spigot, as someone on New Mandala mentioned in a different post.
At the same time, strict control would be exercised on the groups, to keep them in line. Some of them border on banditry, and bear close supervision, less they take the place of the SPDC and visit the same crimes on the populace.
I know all about the French contingent, and the methods they used to discipline the KNLA troops under their command.
I also know that Bo Mya shot himself in the foot with the way he dealt with the Buddhists within his ranks.
A lot of mistakes have been made. Learn from them and move on.
The U.S. prides itself on going after those who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. In your home country we jailed them by the thousands, and hanged over a hundred. Just recently the U.S. sent an 88 year old man back to Germany to start trial for war crimes.
In the former Yugoslavia, the U.S. led the charge to apprehend and bring to justice those who committed war crimes. No matter which side they were on.
But the U.S. doesn’t seem willing to go after those in the SPDC who commit war crimes just as bad as those in Europe.
It’s as if the victims there aren’t worth as much as as the lives of Europeans. This needs to change.
People on this board, New Mandala, argued the merits of sanctions against the SPDC. Some here feel that the sanctions only hurt the populace, and did nothing to the Burmese ruling elite. To some extant I think they have a point. Australia allowed – actually welcomed – the offspring of SPDC members to attend school there.
Luxury goods were allowed into the country. Money traveled in and out of American and European banks. Western oil interests sold drilling equipment to the junta; then provided personnel and technical expertise (Total).
None of this should have occurred. But money trumps all.
My presence in a KA camp contributed next to nothing in the grand scheme of things. I told one of them that I thought it was a waste of time, but he replied that it wasn’t, that by my – and my friends who accompanied me – showing up, it let their soldiers know that they weren’t forgotten. So, in that respect it was successful.
As for leading a charge into an SPDC camp – not happening.
You and I both know that a lot of foreigners drift in and out of camps along the border. Wearing their 5.11 ATAS (all tactical and shit) clothes they try to tell the various resistance fighters how the cow ate the cabbage. Water off a ducks back. These people are going to fight this war their own way, and any foreigner who thinks he’s going to waltz in and be a game changer is dreaming.
The ONLY person I know of that has actually gone in and made a real difference is Dave Everett. And he paid dearly.
Oh yeah, one last thought. I don’t take myself too seriously, and neither should you. My ego is intact, and I can make fun of myself. So the criticisms leveled at me are falling short. I’m no Mike Hoare, and never pretended to be.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Ko Hla Oo
I am sorry you missed the point.
Please read my consequences section of post #54.
There should never be a debate about Justifiable killings. No killing is ever justifiable. Even the most evil ones have their own “justifiable reasons and excuses”. Proven here SPDC or otherwise.
Incidentally you missed the “the one that got away part”.
no body can shoot a target 500 meters away w/o a scope with cheap rifle.
But any one can shoot down someone from 50 meters with an AK47 easily every time.
That is the point.
The consequences? Dave, Charles F and their ilk have spelt them out better than I need to.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Charles F
“The SPDC and Tatmadaw are evil and need to be destroyed. They’re committing genocide against their own people. The leaders need to be taken to The Hague, or just hanged where they’re found” Hmm:
Stating well known facts, to justify defective reasoning.
If you are really concerned with travesties one race against another how come you and your ilk are not in Tibet, Congo or DPRK?
You chose Myanmar because it was safe for your overweight ass. Bash-A-Junta has always been SAFE and POPULAR. Don’t you think assisting with pay back you stated just might not quite fit that mold in most New Mandala readers’ mind?
The consequences of your contribution:
1)Justified the Tamadaw well known atrocious 4 Cuts strategy, with unspeakable results that you will use to again justify your existence!
2) Xenophobia? That word being beaten to death. As long as you realize you are the “Xeno” than your contribution should be exemplary.
Giving aids to sooth the victims is one great example.
Speaking out against SPDC evil deed is another good one.
I can not think of any other ones beyond mentioned that will not cause “phobia”. Can you?
“sooth the victim”тЙа “Effecting killings by victims” so lightheartedly presented.
I took side long ago to expose you and your ilk’s misconceived nefarious justified acts against the Burmese.
Incidentally Burmese = 100+ethnic group within theUN recognized boundary of Myanmar.
SEA Games update at the halfway mark
I think Laos hosts the game quite successfully. However, I agree that there are some problems regarding the dissemination of event schedule and tickets, as mentioned. In my opinion, one of the key factor is due to IT systems and infrastructure in Laos. I am doing my PhD in Sydney. I have followed and watched the games online almost every day. I was disappointed with the official website which was extremely slow in the first few days. It was very hard to find needed information in the website. Also the website is only in English as an official language used in the games. There is no translation to Lao language. Actually, I can not find any websites in Lao language provided by the organization (the government of Laos). I think this is quite pity for Laos that did not take this opportunity to develop and leverage its information systems and infrastructure in a similar manner to the way it built the sport facilities like National Sport Complex. I do not mean that Laos must have state-of-the-art information systems for the games. But the government should see this as a chance to initiate IT development which in turn will assist social and economic development of Laos in the long run.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Arthurson – thanks for your post.
Yes – I was referring to the October ’76, massacre (“Tula”), as was The Economist in its’ Samak obituary.
I do not know anything about Samak’s involvement in the ’73 massacre – or indeed, if he played any role at all.
A writer’s view of recent history
This is a problem in Thailand. I do not understand why the author correlates the matter to other SEA countries. This is an example of some Thai people’s ideology that Thailand is always superior to many countries in the region in terms of democracy and economy. They fail to acknowledge that a country like Singapore is much more democratic than Thailand. Also, because of its democratic stability, Malaysia’s economy grows gradually and passes its rival, Thailand.
Thaksin on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Arthurson
thanks for reminding us of past atrocities by still comfortably living Thais
justice …… when?
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
“Charles F.”
First of all, i am not an academic – i am a photojournalist. That means that i can’t sit in an office and take my photos, but have to be close to where things are happening. That means that long ago, when i still took photos there at the borders, i have seen a few not so nice things as well ( i also had the opportunity to see things from the other side of the fence while on an official journalist’s visa and around Wa State with the obligatory MI guards, which was enlightening in many ways).
Furthermore, some of the academics you deride here have been involved in the borders for a very long time, they are just not as public with their involvement as you two are.
People have been “off the fence” for a long time, and do tediously work towards possible solutions. They just don’t work towards a solution on the battle field, but through negotiations, and often against a simplified western opinion fueled of “boycott”, “good vs. evil”, the sanctification of Aung San Suu Kyi (who has made massive mistakes in the negotiations in the 90’s), etc.
There will be no solution on the battle field, history shows this clearly. You two have not been the first westerners involved in the border battles, already in the late eighties several French and Belgians took part in the fighting with no real effect whatsoever other than that some of them got killed. And since them the minorities that still fight have lost massive ground – they lost Manerplaw, the DKBA split from the KNU (where the KNU and its mostly Christian leadership was not that innocent either), and so on.
The situation in Burma may be black and white for you, that is a convenient position to take, but of you read articles by the likes of Thant Myint-U, grandson of U-Thant, you will see that a less confrontational approach might more realistic when facing the incredibly complex mess in Burma.
But, can you tell us, what outcome do you see, how will Burma come to some sort of peace, in you view? Do you think that western governments should not negotiate? What should, in your opinion, western governments do in their engagement with Burma?
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
A friend is looking for The Devil’s Discus in Thai р╕Бр╕Зр╕Ир╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕Ыр╕╡р╕ир╕▓р╕И.
If you have a copy to sell, please drop me an email.
Thanks.
CJ Hinke
facthaiATgmailDOTcom
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Nick Nostitz,
I don’t mind debating my activities, but I think it can be done without the name calling and other personal attacks.
Insofar as my assisting the Karenni Army or other groups opposed to the SPDC, I have done nothing to be ashamed of.
For me – and I am only speaking for myself – it is a black and white issue.
The SPDC and the Tatmadaw are evil. The Karenni Army, while not as pure as the driven snow, is composed of men who have personally suffered at the hands of the corrupt and murderous Burmese government. They have been burned out of their homes, had family members raped and beaten, their property stolen, and forced into IDP or refugee camps.
Just so that you and others following this thread know, while in Burma with the Karenni Army, I didn’t carry a weapon, though one was offered. I didn’t kill anyone either, though I did verbally abuse one guy.
My coming to be in Burma was a direct result of a book I read that turned out to be chock full of lies, written by a self styled “tri-continental soldier” ( I still laugh every time I read that). I won’t name the book, as I don’t want to publicize it anymore than it has been, but you probably know which one I’m referring to, as well as knowing who the author is.
I saw alot of suffering over there. Simple peasant people burned out of their homes and forced to live in squalid refugee camps, or like wild animals out in the jungle.
I saw some really ugly things. I still can’t get the images out of my head.
I’m not some detached academic, sitting around debating the relative merits of the SPDC vs the NLD vs the KNU, etc., etc. I went over there, crossed the border, saw what I needed to, then made a decision based on that.
I’m 58 years old. Yet I huffed and puffed my overweight ass up into those mountains to see what was what. I came away knowing the following:
The SPDC and Tatmadaw are evil and need to be destroyed. They’re committing genocide against their own people. The leaders need to be taken to The Hague, or just hanged where they’re found.
People need to get off the fence. Quit telling yourselves and each other that that the SPDC is xenophobic, “but if we just talk to them perhaps we can reach an understanding.” They understand all too well – that you’re chumps and will do nothing more than flap your lips and issue “findings”. How’s that working out for you? About as well as”Hope and Change” is here I would wager.
I don’t know if my way is right. But you academics won’t admit that your way might just be wrong.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
“Charles F.”, “davee500”:
I am sorry, but “PlanB” has a point, and you two are about as abusive as he is. From what i can read out of his posts, his point is that the presence of western combatants in the border areas has possibly a very detrimental effect by feeding the paranoia of the SPDC regarding the west and therefore problematic to the efforts to find some sort of a solution to this mess, and that he feels that you are on a similar moral level because you take active part in this war, in which also the side you are fighting for is not exactly free of human rights abuses.
Again, i am sorry, but you two have to accept that there are different views on the highly complicated situation in Burma, and that many believe that things aren’t as black and white as you seem to make them out to be. Not every critic of your activities is a SPDC apologist, and it should be permitted to question you and your motives. You both do not exactly keep a low profile either, therefore you will have to face criticism.
Even though you might not see it this way, but there is a certain moral conundrum in your active and well publicized participation in this war.