“Ralph, your proposal to watch more red TV, movies, talk to people etc. smacks of an effort to convert me into some religious sect. That’s what they always say – come see for yourself, get to know it from the inside”
It’s also what car salesmen and property agents say – but citing that wouldn’t make you look half as paranoid…… and Ralph didn’t say “watch more red TV”. Seems you “don’t particularly care” about quite a lot when forming/promoting your opinions – not just declining to look at available evidence and context yourself but how you then misrepresent what others say about that. Nick can answer for himself – but there is no ” ‘but yellows were far worse’ defense argument “ in what he said; he was plainly talking about accuracy of reporting – an issue that you yourself raised in an earlier insinuation.
What is Burmese? Original Burmese coming down from Tibetan Plateau about 2500 years ago now mixed with the rest of the mob?
Despite the ethno-eccentric assumptions of quite a large number of non-Burmese posters here like Stephen most Burmese with ethnic ancestry do only consider themselves Burmese.
A bit like most Aussies do not consider themselves convict descendants even though almost everyone in Australia, save the first and some second generation non-anglo-saxon migrants here, has some amount however minuscule of convict blood circulating in them.
For Daw Kyaing Kyaing and Daw ASSK they are just Burmese with some ethnic blood like the rest of the mob in the big melting pot of many races in the land used to be called Burma.
Like everyone born and bred in America calling themselves Americans.
a) What The Nation decides to do is up to The Nation. The Nation also decided to publish straight after the concert nothing more on their website than one single photo, taken in daytime, when most people had’t arrived yet. No story, no report, nothing. And now they decide 11 days after the concert to publish a story which selectively picks out two single songs of dozens or more that were sung that night, based on something they have seen on television.
Well, up to The Nation, and up to you if you believe that this is useful information and in-depth reporting…
b) up to you
c) my report is titled: Saturday Yellow, Sunday Red…
I reported what i saw on those two days – nothing more, nothing less: part of an ongoing series of reports from the ground perspective of the conflict. If you have seen these two rallies differently, than please be free to write what you have seen there on the ground. I am sure that New Mandala would be glad to publish your photos and text from the rallies as a contrast to mine. This only gives a wider choice for people interested in Thai politics to form their own opinions from.
I must admit, I am curious to see how he treats Than Shwe’s marriage to Daw Kyaing Kyaing. Daw Kyaing Kyaing, an ethnic Pa-O, has previously served as patron of festivities for Pa-O national day. As the Pa-O are often claimed within the broad Pan-Karen identity–though some say they opted out of Kareness around the time Burma got it’s independence–and as Than Shwe’s wife, the “Karen” Daw Kyaing Kyaing is thus possibly to most powerful woman in the country. Does this have any relevance for better understanding the Tatmadaw-KNU/KNLA civil war as something other than an “ethnic” conflict?
(Perhaps as an aside, if we take Aung San Suu Kyi as the second most powerful woman (in other ways) in the country, this makes the #2 spot taken by a Karen as well (or at least half Karen, via her Karen mother Daw Khin Kyi).
a) Nation decided to publish this photo and a story only after they’ve seen war theme videos replayed on red TV, weeks later. Apparently they thought if it seems important enough to red TV producers, it’s important enough to publish it.
b) You can swear your impartiality all you want, I will judge it on the basis of your actual stories. Right now, for example, you invoked “but yellows were far worse” defense argument. “Objection, Your Honor – relevance?” I’m not trying red vs yellow case, btw, but that’s how you see the world, I suspect.
c) Comparing mood at a fundraising concert with a political rally in Bangkok doesn’t seem fair in the first place. The only thing that unites them is timing, so from that perspective you are right – reds were dancing and yellows were marching on Cambodia, but with a disclaimer – on that particular day.
Ralph, your proposal to watch more red TV, movies, talk to people etc. smacks of an effort to convert me into some religious sect. That’s what they always say – come see for yourself, get to know it from the inside. I don’t particularly care, I just saw an interesting photo of red leaders dressed as warriors and clutching swords.
As i said, i have not noticed the “ancient war costumes” as anything other than what is seen in any elephant show for tourists, and i left before the show with the helicopter. But judging from the hours i have been there, and from what my sources told me of the atmosphere after i have left – yes, The Nation completely overplayed this. Which would not have been the first time that The Nation has shown clear bias in their reporting (one of the main reasons why i began writing here was that local newspaper articles rarely reflected what i have seen on the ground). That has ranged from selective reporting to being very liberal with numbers up to reporting rumors as facts.
I do take reporting by The Nation with a grain of salt. Far too many times i have experienced events completely different from that paper.
Most of the songs at the Red Shirt concert i have heard were folksy love songs, fighting songs about democracy (which indeed are popular with Red Shirts), “missing Thaksin” songs, etc. The atmosphere was a feel-good atmosphere, with very little hard politics.
I would suggest to reading the excellent article published on Prachatai – “fierce nationalism on the PAD stage” – to get an idea how the general atmosphere on the PAD stage was. This article i can fully support as it matches exactly what i have heard.
I believe that you overstate the importance of the money collected at fundraisers in terms how or why the rally was canceled. The rally was indeed very controversial for red shirts as well, partly due to the timing and partly due to their experience from Songkran, in which they were crushed.
But do not be mistaken – the Red Shirts are a mass movement – they constantly have fundraisers in rural areas, where locals donate money for all sorts of Red Shirt activities, ranging from improving their radio stations, to their democracy schools, to filling their war chests for protests and transport to large protests in Bangkok.
If you doubt my reports, I can only again suggest attending the events in person in future, if you want to get a clear picture.
It’d be too optimistic to hope for ‘the end of conflict’, simply because of the gathering of some elite. It’s a Thai way of the nobles to keep their manners even in front of their arch rivals. Samak himself was not a prominent figure in the ongoing political powerplay. Just a nominee as he explicitly declared at the last general election. Have you seen a Thai boxing fight? Apart from paying homage to their teachers, they bow to each other before doing the fight. It’s a calm before the (big)storm. Another round of battle is about to begin soon.
Nick, Nation described them as “ancient war costumes”, and that’s exactly what they look like, and all three of them were clutching swords, and there’s red “Battle cries” heading for one of the paragraphs that also describes Arisman arriving in a mock-up helicopter, dressed as a commando.
It came to Nation’s attention only when the video was replayed on red shirts’ TV channel. Nation said “music videos with fighting theme” are popular with red TV producers.
From your comment I understand those war costumes didn’t seem noticeable to you, probably because there are from a totally different era. I’ve seen people making fuss about PAD playing “traitor” song from the 70s, however.
Regardless of whether you’ve noticed it or not, Nation’s addition is useful to your coverage. As a person who has actually been there – are they overplaying it? How many “fighting theme” songs were actually there?
I also find an admission that this fund raiser collected only 10 million instead of projected 18 interesting, in light of latest cancellation of red rallies in Bangkok.
I don’t think that i care for the insinuation that i may have “omitted” something “intentionally”.
But to answer you – no, i have omitted nothing of any importance that i have seen while i was there – i left the concert soon after Thaksin appeared on a videolink. As i have written in the article – at midnight. I walked out of the venue of the concert to the parking lot a few minutes before 23.00. About half an hour before that i left the stage area to walk to the other side of the field so i could take photos of the crowd that has gathered.
The Red Shirt leaders wore a multitude of fancy costumes for their songs. Looking at The Nation article – the costumes shown in the picture accompanying the article look to me like historical costumes one can see in any elephant show in Thailand, and do not seem to me the sort of dress one would use in a modern war, or that are effective during street battles. They look to me just like another fancy dress on a stage dominated by fancy costumes.
This concert was mostly a feel-good event. I have asked people i trust who have remained there until the morning if the general atmosphere changed after i left, which they denied.
Furthermore – I have never denied that there is a very violent element also in the Red Shirts. I have photographed this as well in the past (and i fear that i have to do so again in the future). But this day, at the concert, was no atmosphere of violence.
I hold no monopoly on reporting on the Red Shirts, or the Yellow Shirts, or any other political event in Thailand. I report under my real name, with a press card issued by the Public Relations Department (background checks are done by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before such a card is issued), and not under an alias, and am fully answerable for what i report here, or anywhere else. Intentionally misreporting such events would therefore earn me a lot of trouble – it would be a violation of professional ethics and also to the terms of my permit to stay and work here in Thailand.
Writing such articles (and my book) does not only mean that i write what i have seen, but i also have to corroborate information with many trustworthy sources, to filter out the mountains of rumors and misinformation floating around in any such conflict situation, so i can be as factual as humanly possible.
If you still distrust my articles – then i would suggest to do what i do – go there yourself and write your own stories, take your own photos, build your own network of trusted sources (which has taken me years), and see what you come up with, and if it is in contrast to what i have reported. Until then i would suggest to keep such impertinent insinuations to yourself.
These issues are really important and in the news everyday, yet so few people seem to be discussing them rigorously and historically outside of academia.
There is a huge gap between the econometric theory here and institutional and policy reality. Like what exactly is a “price neutral outcome” in terms of measurable economic policy variables and economic history.
I have been explaining the vocabulary in articles on rice policy for years at a newspaper. On the other hand I have an MSc in economics specializing in econometrics and math econ. The gap between theory and practice is what I find both really frustrating and also intriguing. If there was a trail of citations from newspaper to academia things would be a lot clearer. Also there is the standpoint of a teacher supervising research projects and trying to get sources for students. The bibliography of the paper is mostly very recent though from materials I have collected discussions centered around the economics of food and agricultural in Thailand go back several decades (e.g. Ammar Siamwalla). If someone did an extensive bibliography on this it would be wonderful. Then there is also the question whether what has been written is even available to Thai students in Thailand.
It’s regrettable, as you say, but I think the increase in security points to an irony that strikes at the heart of the SEA Games spectacle, something along the lines of ‘watching the state, the state is watching’. On the one hand, the SEA Games in Laos provide unparalleled opportunity for the people to watch the Lao state symbolically perform national achievement and, hence, bolster its power. On the other, the fact that the state is watching back, through increased security, suggests it lacks confidence in the idea of the nation as a unifying idea.
A long time ago – before the 1997 crash – Ajarn Kusuma was part of Sondhi Limthongkul’s circle to the extent that he parked shares in her name during one of his stock market deals to avoid having to make a declaration of ownership of a certain percentage of equity. (The SEC didn’t see it quite that way, but they almost never went after anyone in those days.) I think she was on the board of one of his foundations.
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Mahathir squandered RM100 billion says new book
For those who want a flavour of UMNO/BN’s long corruption list, this article is useful.
Benedict Rogers on Than Shwe
an interesting, yet rumour-based read.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
“StanG”
“Ralph, your proposal to watch more red TV, movies, talk to people etc. smacks of an effort to convert me into some religious sect. That’s what they always say – come see for yourself, get to know it from the inside”
It’s also what car salesmen and property agents say – but citing that wouldn’t make you look half as paranoid…… and Ralph didn’t say “watch more red TV”. Seems you “don’t particularly care” about quite a lot when forming/promoting your opinions – not just declining to look at available evidence and context yourself but how you then misrepresent what others say about that. Nick can answer for himself – but there is no ” ‘but yellows were far worse’ defense argument “ in what he said; he was plainly talking about accuracy of reporting – an issue that you yourself raised in an earlier insinuation.
Benedict Rogers on Than Shwe
What is Burmese? Original Burmese coming down from Tibetan Plateau about 2500 years ago now mixed with the rest of the mob?
Despite the ethno-eccentric assumptions of quite a large number of non-Burmese posters here like Stephen most Burmese with ethnic ancestry do only consider themselves Burmese.
A bit like most Aussies do not consider themselves convict descendants even though almost everyone in Australia, save the first and some second generation non-anglo-saxon migrants here, has some amount however minuscule of convict blood circulating in them.
For Daw Kyaing Kyaing and Daw ASSK they are just Burmese with some ethnic blood like the rest of the mob in the big melting pot of many races in the land used to be called Burma.
Like everyone born and bred in America calling themselves Americans.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
“StanG”:
a) What The Nation decides to do is up to The Nation. The Nation also decided to publish straight after the concert nothing more on their website than one single photo, taken in daytime, when most people had’t arrived yet. No story, no report, nothing. And now they decide 11 days after the concert to publish a story which selectively picks out two single songs of dozens or more that were sung that night, based on something they have seen on television.
Well, up to The Nation, and up to you if you believe that this is useful information and in-depth reporting…
b) up to you
c) my report is titled: Saturday Yellow, Sunday Red…
I reported what i saw on those two days – nothing more, nothing less: part of an ongoing series of reports from the ground perspective of the conflict. If you have seen these two rallies differently, than please be free to write what you have seen there on the ground. I am sure that New Mandala would be glad to publish your photos and text from the rallies as a contrast to mine. This only gives a wider choice for people interested in Thai politics to form their own opinions from.
Benedict Rogers on Than Shwe
I must admit, I am curious to see how he treats Than Shwe’s marriage to Daw Kyaing Kyaing. Daw Kyaing Kyaing, an ethnic Pa-O, has previously served as patron of festivities for Pa-O national day. As the Pa-O are often claimed within the broad Pan-Karen identity–though some say they opted out of Kareness around the time Burma got it’s independence–and as Than Shwe’s wife, the “Karen” Daw Kyaing Kyaing is thus possibly to most powerful woman in the country. Does this have any relevance for better understanding the Tatmadaw-KNU/KNLA civil war as something other than an “ethnic” conflict?
(Perhaps as an aside, if we take Aung San Suu Kyi as the second most powerful woman (in other ways) in the country, this makes the #2 spot taken by a Karen as well (or at least half Karen, via her Karen mother Daw Khin Kyi).
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
Nick,
a) Nation decided to publish this photo and a story only after they’ve seen war theme videos replayed on red TV, weeks later. Apparently they thought if it seems important enough to red TV producers, it’s important enough to publish it.
b) You can swear your impartiality all you want, I will judge it on the basis of your actual stories. Right now, for example, you invoked “but yellows were far worse” defense argument. “Objection, Your Honor – relevance?” I’m not trying red vs yellow case, btw, but that’s how you see the world, I suspect.
c) Comparing mood at a fundraising concert with a political rally in Bangkok doesn’t seem fair in the first place. The only thing that unites them is timing, so from that perspective you are right – reds were dancing and yellows were marching on Cambodia, but with a disclaimer – on that particular day.
Ralph, your proposal to watch more red TV, movies, talk to people etc. smacks of an effort to convert me into some religious sect. That’s what they always say – come see for yourself, get to know it from the inside. I don’t particularly care, I just saw an interesting photo of red leaders dressed as warriors and clutching swords.
Samak: Conflict to the end
Nick, thanks. Photos no. 1 & 4 are absolute classics, & every one is superbly complex & full of implications. Wonderful photojournalism!
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
StanG needs to watch a few more Thai movies and TV to get a feel for what the red shirts were doing.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
“StanG”:
As i said, i have not noticed the “ancient war costumes” as anything other than what is seen in any elephant show for tourists, and i left before the show with the helicopter. But judging from the hours i have been there, and from what my sources told me of the atmosphere after i have left – yes, The Nation completely overplayed this. Which would not have been the first time that The Nation has shown clear bias in their reporting (one of the main reasons why i began writing here was that local newspaper articles rarely reflected what i have seen on the ground). That has ranged from selective reporting to being very liberal with numbers up to reporting rumors as facts.
I do take reporting by The Nation with a grain of salt. Far too many times i have experienced events completely different from that paper.
Most of the songs at the Red Shirt concert i have heard were folksy love songs, fighting songs about democracy (which indeed are popular with Red Shirts), “missing Thaksin” songs, etc. The atmosphere was a feel-good atmosphere, with very little hard politics.
I would suggest to reading the excellent article published on Prachatai – “fierce nationalism on the PAD stage” – to get an idea how the general atmosphere on the PAD stage was. This article i can fully support as it matches exactly what i have heard.
I believe that you overstate the importance of the money collected at fundraisers in terms how or why the rally was canceled. The rally was indeed very controversial for red shirts as well, partly due to the timing and partly due to their experience from Songkran, in which they were crushed.
But do not be mistaken – the Red Shirts are a mass movement – they constantly have fundraisers in rural areas, where locals donate money for all sorts of Red Shirt activities, ranging from improving their radio stations, to their democracy schools, to filling their war chests for protests and transport to large protests in Bangkok.
If you doubt my reports, I can only again suggest attending the events in person in future, if you want to get a clear picture.
Samak: Conflict to the end
Chris Beale:
It’d be too optimistic to hope for ‘the end of conflict’, simply because of the gathering of some elite. It’s a Thai way of the nobles to keep their manners even in front of their arch rivals. Samak himself was not a prominent figure in the ongoing political powerplay. Just a nominee as he explicitly declared at the last general election. Have you seen a Thai boxing fight? Apart from paying homage to their teachers, they bow to each other before doing the fight. It’s a calm before the (big)storm. Another round of battle is about to begin soon.
Good job Nick, thanks again.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
Nick, Nation described them as “ancient war costumes”, and that’s exactly what they look like, and all three of them were clutching swords, and there’s red “Battle cries” heading for one of the paragraphs that also describes Arisman arriving in a mock-up helicopter, dressed as a commando.
It came to Nation’s attention only when the video was replayed on red shirts’ TV channel. Nation said “music videos with fighting theme” are popular with red TV producers.
From your comment I understand those war costumes didn’t seem noticeable to you, probably because there are from a totally different era. I’ve seen people making fuss about PAD playing “traitor” song from the 70s, however.
Regardless of whether you’ve noticed it or not, Nation’s addition is useful to your coverage. As a person who has actually been there – are they overplaying it? How many “fighting theme” songs were actually there?
I also find an admission that this fund raiser collected only 10 million instead of projected 18 interesting, in light of latest cancellation of red rallies in Bangkok.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
“StanG”:
I don’t think that i care for the insinuation that i may have “omitted” something “intentionally”.
But to answer you – no, i have omitted nothing of any importance that i have seen while i was there – i left the concert soon after Thaksin appeared on a videolink. As i have written in the article – at midnight. I walked out of the venue of the concert to the parking lot a few minutes before 23.00. About half an hour before that i left the stage area to walk to the other side of the field so i could take photos of the crowd that has gathered.
The Red Shirt leaders wore a multitude of fancy costumes for their songs. Looking at The Nation article – the costumes shown in the picture accompanying the article look to me like historical costumes one can see in any elephant show in Thailand, and do not seem to me the sort of dress one would use in a modern war, or that are effective during street battles. They look to me just like another fancy dress on a stage dominated by fancy costumes.
This concert was mostly a feel-good event. I have asked people i trust who have remained there until the morning if the general atmosphere changed after i left, which they denied.
Furthermore – I have never denied that there is a very violent element also in the Red Shirts. I have photographed this as well in the past (and i fear that i have to do so again in the future). But this day, at the concert, was no atmosphere of violence.
I hold no monopoly on reporting on the Red Shirts, or the Yellow Shirts, or any other political event in Thailand. I report under my real name, with a press card issued by the Public Relations Department (background checks are done by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before such a card is issued), and not under an alias, and am fully answerable for what i report here, or anywhere else. Intentionally misreporting such events would therefore earn me a lot of trouble – it would be a violation of professional ethics and also to the terms of my permit to stay and work here in Thailand.
Writing such articles (and my book) does not only mean that i write what i have seen, but i also have to corroborate information with many trustworthy sources, to filter out the mountains of rumors and misinformation floating around in any such conflict situation, so i can be as factual as humanly possible.
If you still distrust my articles – then i would suggest to do what i do – go there yourself and write your own stories, take your own photos, build your own network of trusted sources (which has taken me years), and see what you come up with, and if it is in contrast to what i have reported. Until then i would suggest to keep such impertinent insinuations to yourself.
The historical origins of populism
Thanks for this wonderful article.
These issues are really important and in the news everyday, yet so few people seem to be discussing them rigorously and historically outside of academia.
There is a huge gap between the econometric theory here and institutional and policy reality. Like what exactly is a “price neutral outcome” in terms of measurable economic policy variables and economic history.
I have been explaining the vocabulary in articles on rice policy for years at a newspaper. On the other hand I have an MSc in economics specializing in econometrics and math econ. The gap between theory and practice is what I find both really frustrating and also intriguing. If there was a trail of citations from newspaper to academia things would be a lot clearer. Also there is the standpoint of a teacher supervising research projects and trying to get sources for students. The bibliography of the paper is mostly very recent though from materials I have collected discussions centered around the economics of food and agricultural in Thailand go back several decades (e.g. Ammar Siamwalla). If someone did an extensive bibliography on this it would be wonderful. Then there is also the question whether what has been written is even available to Thai students in Thailand.
Saturday red, Sunday yellow: the temperature rises again
Saw this in paper Daily Xpress the other day:
Dressed for war
Apparently Nick missed on some interesting stuff, important enough to become a highlight on red tv.
Was the ommission of war drums and a helicopter intentional, by any chance? Are there any unpublished pictures left where we can see it?
PAD supporters magazine
Vasit Dejakunchorn is either senile or off-beat or both in his recent behavior toward Thaksin.
SEA Games going to pot?
It’s regrettable, as you say, but I think the increase in security points to an irony that strikes at the heart of the SEA Games spectacle, something along the lines of ‘watching the state, the state is watching’. On the one hand, the SEA Games in Laos provide unparalleled opportunity for the people to watch the Lao state symbolically perform national achievement and, hence, bolster its power. On the other, the fact that the state is watching back, through increased security, suggests it lacks confidence in the idea of the nation as a unifying idea.
Compare and contrast
A long time ago – before the 1997 crash – Ajarn Kusuma was part of Sondhi Limthongkul’s circle to the extent that he parked shares in her name during one of his stock market deals to avoid having to make a declaration of ownership of a certain percentage of equity. (The SEC didn’t see it quite that way, but they almost never went after anyone in those days.) I think she was on the board of one of his foundations.
What’s she been up to lately?
Samak: Conflict to the end
The “Chris” above is not me – but someone else !
Though – yes – I agree : Nick is doing an excellent job.
Compare and contrast
any new mandala readers attending this highly interesting event; PLEASE post and inform those of us not able to be there… many thanks!!!