@Dickie Simpkins #30
a few really good suggestions we easily can agree with.
but WHY do you have to spick them with wild allegations against abhisit?
“heinous” = ‘utterly odious or wicked’
is something you don’t want YOUR acts to be called.
in the thai democracy neither the king nor the government
make , change or ‘scrap’ laws.
that is done by the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives.
the prime minister cannot just ‘drop’ any cases, this is up to the courts.
the king has he priviledge of the royal pardon.
but one is usually NOT pardonned when he and all his friends
insist that there was no wrongdoing and hence show no remorse.
your comment: “…makes Thaksin seem a strong democrat…”
brings to light your understanding of ‘democracy’.
this criminal gave orders which led to 2,500 extrajudical killings.
in his alleged ‘war on drugs’. “mission accomplished”?
this should be a more worthwhile objective for your indignation
than the admitted ‘vandalism’ of a few hooligans…
Dickie, while I generally agree with you on LM, the idea of charging people with “threats against the sovereignity of the Thai state” seems not much less political than the LM charges and no less 19th century. As for Singapore-style caning, surely Thailand is better than that.
If generals can change laws for themselves to make illegal acts legal, surely a government led by a party of so-called Democrats can come up with a way out of the LM mess.
By the way, why shouldn’t people be allowed to call for revolutionary change?
And, I do not think Jakrapob has actually called for an armed revolution. The reports I have seen fall short of that (although I may have missed something more definitive).
Another comment from Doug Miles on JP Leblond’s Comment May 21 2009 no 1.
I agree with Leif Horleifur (May 22 2009 11) regarding the informative value of Jean Paul Leblond’s comment ( May 21 2009 10) . It is not by neglect that I myself only now respond to JP’s earlier critique (May7 2009 2 ) of my first post ( May 5 1) but rather that I accepted his advice to consulut the published material to which he referred by Chupinit Kesmanee etc and that it has taken me some time even to begin the task given the location of where I live and the circumstances in which I work.
However the clarity, precision and economy with which JP himself (May 21 10 ) has now already summarised that material* renders redundant any attempt by me to emulate his scholarship which provides more evidence than I ever imagined could be available for my main point concerning wild –life sanctauaries in the western borderlands of North Thailand : that during several decades under the Royal Thai Army( 3rd Region) authority, commercial clear-felling in the former habitats of poppy-growing mountain minorities has indeed supplemented military eviction as a strategy for ending shifting cultivation and especially opium production in such nature reserves.
I am also very much taken by Kesamanee’s (1995: 245-248) references to instances where those who have acquired licenses as commercial operators on behalf of timber interests have in some cases themselves been forestry officials. This charge obviously warrants further and closer consideration in future studies of forestry politics in the Kingdom’s north.
*Further to the above , I thank JP Leblond for providing me with pdf copies of these documents.
References
Kesmanee C. (1995) Moving Hilltribes People to the Lowlands: The Resettlement Experience in Thailand. In: H. M. Mathur & M. M. Cernea (eds.), Resettlement: Focus on Asian Experiences: Vikas Publishing House PVT LTD
This new charge that Ajarn Somsak has put up in addition to the pending cases of LM on the Political Prisoners of Thailand web site, and add that to the government wanting to “approve” of the content of community radio stations and control over television channels…
The heinous acts by Abhisit I administration makes Thaksin seem a strong democrat…. perhaps Thaksin is the new definition of “Prachatipatai Baeb Thai”….
There is no need to spoil the monarchy’s name by throwing around LM charges, as HMK himself said that frivilous LM charges made on ‘his name’ harms him, and criticism harms him less. In 2005, HMK made it very clear that the LM laws hurts him much more than it protects him, and the actions this year especially has proved him correct.
Abhisit I should drop all LM cases at the moment, pending a change in the LM Law and should focus what is going to be his very short legacy simply on making forcing free education for 16 years by the government with a goal of increasing the literacy rate in the populace.
Cases against Jakrapob and Gi should be changed to ‘threats against the sovereignity of the Thai state’ as one has called for armed struggle, and the other for a major revolution. Finally, Suwicha and/or others with LM cases should have their charges dropped to minor acts of vandalism and should be punished either Singapore style by caning at worst, or forced community service at best (normal sentencing for vandalism cases around the world).
(The Nation should not let Bangkok Post get too far ahead here!)
I’d love to read this as a positive development for a Thai rule of law and justice and I hope Thai society, as a whole, are willing to face these popular injustices instead of sweeping it aside as an embarrassing episode, really learn from it, and not let it happen again.
Let’s publicly open up the Southern unrest too and it’s time a great Thai investigative documentary like “Citizen Juling” gets aired on public TV.
This will not only set new precedents for Thai society – but also for aspiring and un-aspiring neighboring ‘democracies’ it is hoped.
Dylan, well put. A narrow focus on national level politics and organised armed conflict in the international media has overshadowed the subtle, nuanced and innovative ways in which regular folk in Burma have been resisting repressive governance and finding space to shape their lives. Thanks to Dave Gilbert and Violet Cho for this interesting post.
Perhaps this is the place to update news of the latest LM case.
Chiangmai police has just issued an arrest warrant for Kokaew Phikulthong, a prominent speaker at Red Shirt rallies and a regular co-host of the Truth Today program for violation of LM law (article 112 of the Criminal Code). The charge stems from his speech at the rally in Chiangmai on 22 March 2009.
The Asian Human Rights Commission has just posted a forwarded appeal from the Cross Cultural Foundation regarding the repatriation of the Lao Hmong. Find it here: http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2009/3160/
Hallo everybody,
I am again to give you more information about my journey. Last time i told about my journey but i forgot some information to exam. i / you need also visa for BELARUS, RUSSIA, CHINA, VIETNAM< LAOS. If you are Europian citizen ,dont need visa for Thailand until 30 days.
Visa cost for each country aproximately 70 euro. I dont know what and how about eat and drink in the train ???
From Hanoi to Vientiane have to have bus service bc there are no trains in Laos. Cost 15- 20 maximaum and time 20- 24 hours. From Vientiand to Nong Khai thailand and Bangkok you can travel by bus and train , time 15 hour and cost 20 euro apx.
Hotels in Hanoi cheaper if you book earlier you can get free transfore service from train station to hotel and hotel to station.
I am not sure yet about Myanmar to Bangladesh ??
i hope it wil be also smooth and enjoyable.
thanx again.
Sorry but no excuses for Ms. Orobator. Don’t blame Laos. Because you are not a “local national” you should be excused when committing a crime. She deserves the death penalty, after the birth of the child. When we travel or reside as foreign workers, we are guests and should behave accordingly and respect local traditions and laws. Because she is a UK national she should be treated differently? You know that trafficking in drugs is illegal where ever you are and that there are stiff penalties especially in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia. So if you do and get caught you know what the consequences will be.
It’s a while back, but some trusted source assured me some years ago when I had the chance to meet Daw Aung San Suu Kyi together with U Tin Oo in Rangun that actually her personal doctor was her boyfriend.
Ajarn Somsak doesn’t have a short memory – as regular readers of this blog certainly know — but Les Abbey isn’t a careful reader. Somsak clearly was referring to, right there in black and white, The Nation’s agenda “…during these past few years…”
The comment: ‘the bills that Thaksin’s two US PR companies put in. Would writing to New Mandala be an item on them?” is silly and reductionist.
It’s also slimy, leaving open the implication that Ajarn Somsak is on the Thaksin PR payroll. Please clarify, Les Abbey. Or at least think a bit more next time you write.
Somsak Jeamteerasakul, what a short memory. Wasn’t the Nation Group one of the few news organizations that stood up against Thaksin before the coup as he attempted to consolidate total power in his and his family’s hands.
I would love to see the bills that Thaksin’s two US PR companies put in. Would writing to New Mandala be an item on them?
i’m a hmong-american, and my parents were refugees of the vietnam war. i’ll be honest, i feel like both the laos and the thai government are not doing their best in solving this situation. i also know that it’s not an easy task, but there are peaceful ways of handling this. repatriating these people back forcefully may get rid of the problem, but the image will not look so good. i think that when MSF reacted, that was another sign of problems.
i strongly feel that the laos government still have animosity towards the hmong refugees for their involvement in the war, and it’s clear that today, these hmong people are living in fear of a government they cannot trust. both the laos government and the thai government, through this repratriate act has caused many hmong people to lose what little trust and faith they have left.
im not a perfect scholar, but i feel if these two countries encourage assimilating the hmong refugees into the society, and at the same time giving them security, this issue can slowly calm down. many people do not understand how it feels to live as a hmong person. no country to call their own, no government to call their own, just living day to day hoping they wont die.
i feel that with the level of politics that exists today, this issue can find a peaceful solution. if thai foreign prime minister kasit feels that there is no need to involve a third, i feel like there’s something that is being hidden, or something that they want to get over with quickly and quietly. if there is pure intention of finding these hmong refugees a home, then why not allow third parties to investigate and watch? both countries are capable of diplomatic solutions, but i honestly feel that grudges are often a part of the issue. historical animosity and misunderstanding also plays a role too i think.
both countries have great potential in being a leader and handling this issue accordingly with human rights groups, etc., i have relatives both in thailand and laos who live peacefully, so i dont understand why these refugees can not be given the same opportunity. or is it because they represent the remnants of a war and memories of a people that was abandoned?
i try to stay unbias on both sides. being a hmong person, i dont want to throw anger. i simply feel that if both countries do pure heartedly want to ‘help’ these refugees, they should do it so that the world does not question their actions and intentions.
these are just my thoughts. i would like to hear more opinions from fellow readers. thanks. take care 🙂
Thanks for this informative follow-up, that also connects to issues raised in Andrew and Nich’s post on the Specter of Evictions. The Khlong Lan people, highlanders in Kamphaeng Phet, were invited there by the Thai authorities (most likely just the military, and at that time the Forestry Dept seems not to have minded), in an effort to preclude forest bases by the Communist Party of Thailand. Many of the people were in refugee camp — some rented their own trucks or other transport after they got the green light to settle there. They were encouraged to plant corn, and had to buy their own seeds. After the CPT surrendered, many were evicted, throughout the 1980s possibly, and at least as late as 1990 (by essentially the same outfits as had invited them earlier).
Near Phulangka, the Phachangnoi Wildlife Sanctuary was established to take land away from possible CPT use. There was no large scale logging, but the WS Director had a road built into the forest for the benefit of his “friends” for at least selective cutting of choice trees(there was also sporadic hunting by WS staff). Local farmers state that the forest was in much better shape prior to the WS being established. I find it plausible that napalm accounts for the lack of regrowth in that area of Phayao (formerly part of Ch.Rai), but don’t know how one would find out.
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Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
@Dickie Simpkins #30
a few really good suggestions we easily can agree with.
but WHY do you have to spick them with wild allegations against abhisit?
“heinous” = ‘utterly odious or wicked’
is something you don’t want YOUR acts to be called.
in the thai democracy neither the king nor the government
make , change or ‘scrap’ laws.
that is done by the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives.
the prime minister cannot just ‘drop’ any cases, this is up to the courts.
the king has he priviledge of the royal pardon.
but one is usually NOT pardonned when he and all his friends
insist that there was no wrongdoing and hence show no remorse.
your comment: “…makes Thaksin seem a strong democrat…”
brings to light your understanding of ‘democracy’.
this criminal gave orders which led to 2,500 extrajudical killings.
in his alleged ‘war on drugs’. “mission accomplished”?
this should be a more worthwhile objective for your indignation
than the admitted ‘vandalism’ of a few hooligans…
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Dickie, while I generally agree with you on LM, the idea of charging people with “threats against the sovereignity of the Thai state” seems not much less political than the LM charges and no less 19th century. As for Singapore-style caning, surely Thailand is better than that.
If generals can change laws for themselves to make illegal acts legal, surely a government led by a party of so-called Democrats can come up with a way out of the LM mess.
By the way, why shouldn’t people be allowed to call for revolutionary change?
And, I do not think Jakrapob has actually called for an armed revolution. The reports I have seen fall short of that (although I may have missed something more definitive).
The violent suppression of opium cultivation
Another comment from Doug Miles on JP Leblond’s Comment May 21 2009 no 1.
I agree with Leif Horleifur (May 22 2009 11) regarding the informative value of Jean Paul Leblond’s comment ( May 21 2009 10) . It is not by neglect that I myself only now respond to JP’s earlier critique (May7 2009 2 ) of my first post ( May 5 1) but rather that I accepted his advice to consulut the published material to which he referred by Chupinit Kesmanee etc and that it has taken me some time even to begin the task given the location of where I live and the circumstances in which I work.
However the clarity, precision and economy with which JP himself (May 21 10 ) has now already summarised that material* renders redundant any attempt by me to emulate his scholarship which provides more evidence than I ever imagined could be available for my main point concerning wild –life sanctauaries in the western borderlands of North Thailand : that during several decades under the Royal Thai Army( 3rd Region) authority, commercial clear-felling in the former habitats of poppy-growing mountain minorities has indeed supplemented military eviction as a strategy for ending shifting cultivation and especially opium production in such nature reserves.
I am also very much taken by Kesamanee’s (1995: 245-248) references to instances where those who have acquired licenses as commercial operators on behalf of timber interests have in some cases themselves been forestry officials. This charge obviously warrants further and closer consideration in future studies of forestry politics in the Kingdom’s north.
*Further to the above , I thank JP Leblond for providing me with pdf copies of these documents.
References
Kesmanee C. (1995) Moving Hilltribes People to the Lowlands: The Resettlement Experience in Thailand. In: H. M. Mathur & M. M. Cernea (eds.), Resettlement: Focus on Asian Experiences: Vikas Publishing House PVT LTD
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
This new charge that Ajarn Somsak has put up in addition to the pending cases of LM on the Political Prisoners of Thailand web site, and add that to the government wanting to “approve” of the content of community radio stations and control over television channels…
The heinous acts by Abhisit I administration makes Thaksin seem a strong democrat…. perhaps Thaksin is the new definition of “Prachatipatai Baeb Thai”….
There is no need to spoil the monarchy’s name by throwing around LM charges, as HMK himself said that frivilous LM charges made on ‘his name’ harms him, and criticism harms him less. In 2005, HMK made it very clear that the LM laws hurts him much more than it protects him, and the actions this year especially has proved him correct.
Abhisit I should drop all LM cases at the moment, pending a change in the LM Law and should focus what is going to be his very short legacy simply on making forcing free education for 16 years by the government with a goal of increasing the literacy rate in the populace.
Cases against Jakrapob and Gi should be changed to ‘threats against the sovereignity of the Thai state’ as one has called for armed struggle, and the other for a major revolution. Finally, Suwicha and/or others with LM cases should have their charges dropped to minor acts of vandalism and should be punished either Singapore style by caning at worst, or forced community service at best (normal sentencing for vandalism cases around the world).
Anyways, it is all just wishful thinking.
Suthichai Yoon on the state of Thai journalism
A good point to kick start Thai investigative journalism – The War on Drugs now that the DSI has finally made some headway after 5 very long years.
“Police charged over drug war: DSI starts fresh probe of deaths of 21 other teens”
in
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/17168/police-charged-over-drug-war
(The Nation should not let Bangkok Post get too far ahead here!)
I’d love to read this as a positive development for a Thai rule of law and justice and I hope Thai society, as a whole, are willing to face these popular injustices instead of sweeping it aside as an embarrassing episode, really learn from it, and not let it happen again.
Let’s publicly open up the Southern unrest too and it’s time a great Thai investigative documentary like “Citizen Juling” gets aired on public TV.
This will not only set new precedents for Thai society – but also for aspiring and un-aspiring neighboring ‘democracies’ it is hoped.
“No toilet paper but unity!” Burma does social networking
Dylan, well put. A narrow focus on national level politics and organised armed conflict in the international media has overshadowed the subtle, nuanced and innovative ways in which regular folk in Burma have been resisting repressive governance and finding space to shape their lives. Thanks to Dave Gilbert and Violet Cho for this interesting post.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Perhaps this is the place to update news of the latest LM case.
Chiangmai police has just issued an arrest warrant for Kokaew Phikulthong, a prominent speaker at Red Shirt rallies and a regular co-host of the Truth Today program for violation of LM law (article 112 of the Criminal Code). The charge stems from his speech at the rally in Chiangmai on 22 March 2009.
news in Thai : http://www.innnews.co.th/local.php?nid=172374
Certain injustice in Laos
The Asian Human Rights Commission has just posted a forwarded appeal from the Cross Cultural Foundation regarding the repatriation of the Lao Hmong. Find it here:
http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2009/3160/
Bangladesh to Burma “friendship” road
Hallo everybody,
I am again to give you more information about my journey. Last time i told about my journey but i forgot some information to exam. i / you need also visa for BELARUS, RUSSIA, CHINA, VIETNAM< LAOS. If you are Europian citizen ,dont need visa for Thailand until 30 days.
Visa cost for each country aproximately 70 euro. I dont know what and how about eat and drink in the train ???
From Hanoi to Vientiane have to have bus service bc there are no trains in Laos. Cost 15- 20 maximaum and time 20- 24 hours. From Vientiand to Nong Khai thailand and Bangkok you can travel by bus and train , time 15 hour and cost 20 euro apx.
Hotels in Hanoi cheaper if you book earlier you can get free transfore service from train station to hotel and hotel to station.
I am not sure yet about Myanmar to Bangladesh ??
i hope it wil be also smooth and enjoyable.
thanx again.
Certain injustice in Laos
Sorry but no excuses for Ms. Orobator. Don’t blame Laos. Because you are not a “local national” you should be excused when committing a crime. She deserves the death penalty, after the birth of the child. When we travel or reside as foreign workers, we are guests and should behave accordingly and respect local traditions and laws. Because she is a UK national she should be treated differently? You know that trafficking in drugs is illegal where ever you are and that there are stiff penalties especially in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia. So if you do and get caught you know what the consequences will be.
Burma’s least diplomatic envoy
It’s a while back, but some trusted source assured me some years ago when I had the chance to meet Daw Aung San Suu Kyi together with U Tin Oo in Rangun that actually her personal doctor was her boyfriend.
Suthichai Yoon on the state of Thai journalism
Ajarn Somsak doesn’t have a short memory – as regular readers of this blog certainly know — but Les Abbey isn’t a careful reader. Somsak clearly was referring to, right there in black and white, The Nation’s agenda “…during these past few years…”
The comment: ‘the bills that Thaksin’s two US PR companies put in. Would writing to New Mandala be an item on them?” is silly and reductionist.
It’s also slimy, leaving open the implication that Ajarn Somsak is on the Thaksin PR payroll. Please clarify, Les Abbey. Or at least think a bit more next time you write.
Behind palace and other walls
Very interesting. Keep us apprised.
Coincidentally, the Wall Street Journal reports today on people doing the same in (or above) North Korea:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124295017403345489.html
Suthichai Yoon on the state of Thai journalism
Somsak # 4
EXACTLY!
Suthichai Yoon on the state of Thai journalism
Oh! its back to Thaksin again! That’s about the intellectual height that Les and Yoon, defenders of the Nation can get to.
Why bother….
Suthichai Yoon on the state of Thai journalism
Somsak Jeamteerasakul, what a short memory. Wasn’t the Nation Group one of the few news organizations that stood up against Thaksin before the coup as he attempted to consolidate total power in his and his family’s hands.
I would love to see the bills that Thaksin’s two US PR companies put in. Would writing to New Mandala be an item on them?
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
FACT has a short post by John Francis Lee on Suwicha’s case and the continuing state action on his case (http://facthai.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/thai-putsch-keeps-suwicha-thakor-on-trial-john-francis-lee/)
Certain injustice in Laos
i’m a hmong-american, and my parents were refugees of the vietnam war. i’ll be honest, i feel like both the laos and the thai government are not doing their best in solving this situation. i also know that it’s not an easy task, but there are peaceful ways of handling this. repatriating these people back forcefully may get rid of the problem, but the image will not look so good. i think that when MSF reacted, that was another sign of problems.
i strongly feel that the laos government still have animosity towards the hmong refugees for their involvement in the war, and it’s clear that today, these hmong people are living in fear of a government they cannot trust. both the laos government and the thai government, through this repratriate act has caused many hmong people to lose what little trust and faith they have left.
im not a perfect scholar, but i feel if these two countries encourage assimilating the hmong refugees into the society, and at the same time giving them security, this issue can slowly calm down. many people do not understand how it feels to live as a hmong person. no country to call their own, no government to call their own, just living day to day hoping they wont die.
i feel that with the level of politics that exists today, this issue can find a peaceful solution. if thai foreign prime minister kasit feels that there is no need to involve a third, i feel like there’s something that is being hidden, or something that they want to get over with quickly and quietly. if there is pure intention of finding these hmong refugees a home, then why not allow third parties to investigate and watch? both countries are capable of diplomatic solutions, but i honestly feel that grudges are often a part of the issue. historical animosity and misunderstanding also plays a role too i think.
both countries have great potential in being a leader and handling this issue accordingly with human rights groups, etc., i have relatives both in thailand and laos who live peacefully, so i dont understand why these refugees can not be given the same opportunity. or is it because they represent the remnants of a war and memories of a people that was abandoned?
i try to stay unbias on both sides. being a hmong person, i dont want to throw anger. i simply feel that if both countries do pure heartedly want to ‘help’ these refugees, they should do it so that the world does not question their actions and intentions.
these are just my thoughts. i would like to hear more opinions from fellow readers. thanks. take care 🙂
The violent suppression of opium cultivation
Thanks for this informative follow-up, that also connects to issues raised in Andrew and Nich’s post on the Specter of Evictions. The Khlong Lan people, highlanders in Kamphaeng Phet, were invited there by the Thai authorities (most likely just the military, and at that time the Forestry Dept seems not to have minded), in an effort to preclude forest bases by the Communist Party of Thailand. Many of the people were in refugee camp — some rented their own trucks or other transport after they got the green light to settle there. They were encouraged to plant corn, and had to buy their own seeds. After the CPT surrendered, many were evicted, throughout the 1980s possibly, and at least as late as 1990 (by essentially the same outfits as had invited them earlier).
Near Phulangka, the Phachangnoi Wildlife Sanctuary was established to take land away from possible CPT use. There was no large scale logging, but the WS Director had a road built into the forest for the benefit of his “friends” for at least selective cutting of choice trees(there was also sporadic hunting by WS staff). Local farmers state that the forest was in much better shape prior to the WS being established. I find it plausible that napalm accounts for the lack of regrowth in that area of Phayao (formerly part of Ch.Rai), but don’t know how one would find out.
Political reform in Thailand: Structural and ideological issues
interesting indeed.
i did my paper on democracy in thailand, and i think this section is really interesting. thanks for sharing your thoughts.