L S Schwartz writes: “A shame that the term “fascism” has been so abused and misapplied in current discourse that one cannot recognize what is a textbook example of it .”
You are right about the overuse of the term fascism; certain recent “conservative” uses of it in the States come to mind. There is much more to fascism than corporatism, of course, and here’s a good start for a “textbook example” for consideration of the topic- Umberto Eco’s “Eternal Fascism:
Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt” http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html
I’ve done my own comparison of PAD action with Eco’s brilliant 14-point checklist, and find their behavior and “policies” match up nicely to all all but maybe a couple of items. In addition to the obvious such as “the cult of tradition,” “irrationalism,” and “disagreement is treason,” how about this?
6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration.
That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.
As to bloodshed over ballots, Eco has that covered, too:
. . .the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.
Who did mention that?.. My uncle also support Thaksin, I don’t think he has been bought. This sounds like “Any PAD is paid to join the protest in Bangkok”.
For the rest of argument here, only the time can tell.
Objective writing, reporting? No author is objective. They may wish to be, but it is humanly impossible.
Nick’s report is interesting, from his perspective, but it is only from his perspective an vantage point.
Portman’s statements are the best in his whole exchange. He obviously has a keen understanding of the current situation in Thailand.
David Brown, on the other hand, has a poor understanding of the US political system and is obviously neither objective nor informed. A lot of crap has come out of the US government, but not for the reason he stated.
As far as democracies are concerned, none are perfect (if there is such a thing), and it takes years to develop one. Thailand is far from it. More concerning is the present time in history. It is one thing to develop a democracy 200 years ago, but today it is extremely difficult. There are too many people, there is too much media, and with the Internet anyone, no matter how off base or uninformed, has a voice.
Most of the world’s governments are, most unfortunately, in the crapper and nobody seems to know what to do about it. The next decade will be interesting, brutally so, but interesting. There are no, or few, world leaders. If there were, the world wouldn’t be in this mess.
What is happening now is not good for Thailand, and when things get so out of whack a true leader would not have let the conflict with PAD escalate to where it did. The government failed regardless of the politics of PAD.
I wish the Thai people and the future of Thailand the best through all this turmoil. I hope I am both able and allowed live the rest of my life here and die here. I just hope the death part of it is later rather than sooner, and by natural causes, not a civil conflict.
The authors should be more updated about the New Politics before thinking to write about it.
I assume the authors, and others, are already updated about “New Politics” considering it is exact same brand of corporatism that Benito Mussolini proposed in his essay, “The Doctrine of Fascism,” published in 1932. (1932? Hmmm…that date sounds familiar.)
A shame that the term “fascism” has been so abused and misapplied in current discourse that one cannot recognize what is a textbook example of it .
No kidding, Vorapoap, that this article is against PAD. The reason why people should be against PAD is apparent enough. No matter how much “people participation” you put in your document, the concept is clear: “people” means us, anyone else who supports Thaksin is bought and therefore not a part of the people. Otherwise PAD would have accepted the vote a long time ago.
P.S. Spare us the claptrap about PPP buying votes. With or without vote buying from any of the parties, people would have voted for PPP anyways. The polls are clear enough. Now why didn’t Sondhi try convincing these people? Is he only good at preaching to the converted? Could it be because most of what he says is extremely biased hearsay?
“The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70 : 30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussions. ”
Weasel words. If they aren’t serious about having “70:30” as part of their platform they shouldn’t have used the “example.” Surely they believe such a setup is at least viable, and that alone is sufficiently damning.
The essay is hardly based on an anti-PAD bias. The authors strongly suggest that if the PAD leadership had sufficient patience and conviction they might gradually come to do well against a faltering PPP. Instead Sondhi and Chamlong have decided to show their fascist stripes, and are willing to sacrifice the lives of others to get their way.
I agree with most of what you say David, particularly the need for a strong legal system. Thailand’s judicial branch has traditionally been extremely weak and prone to corruption and manipulation. Being a judge is a career chosen soon after graduation by young people with the right connections, unlike in Anglo Saxon judicial systems where judges tend to be successful baristers or trial lawyers who have earned strong reputations already and have usually saved enough money to be less susceptible to bribery i.e. they have a lot to lose. Of course there are also no juries, which would be vunerable to bribery and intimidation anyway, and cases are usually heard a day a month rather than consecutively and judges may change several times during the trial, so that a judge who missed major parts of the trial may pronounce judgement and sentence.
Thailand’s legal system is also unfortunately not based on precedent at all. It is a Roman/European legal system that is based on individual judge’s personal interpretations of statutory law with no obligation on them to refer to precedent. Many recent cases seem to have ignored precedent e.g. the Constitutional Court found Thaksin not guilty of asset concealment in 2001, having found Sanan guilty of the same offence under not dissimilar circumstances a week earlier. The decision to adopt this type of legal system was made under Absolute Monarchy, probably for good reasons at the time, but it may no longer be very suitable for the present day. Now it would be extremely difficult to overhaul the legal system and switch to an Anglo Saxon precedent based system, although it may in fact be worth the effort. At any rate judicial reform would have to go hand in hand with police reform to be fully effective and neither is in the interests of the corrupt politicians that routinely get elected my the majority.
Whatever anyone thinks about the PAD and its leader are certainly flakey and some of its method are downright unlawful, the ongoing PAD demonstrations provide the judiciary with the background to judge the ongoing political cases solely according to the law without submitting to bribery and intimididation. Looking at the evidence and judgment in the tax fraud case against Potjaman and her associates, the Criminal Court seems to me to have conducted itself in an exemplary manner. This seemed an open and shut case of tax evasion that any court in an Anglo Saxon country would certainly have convicted in and the Thai court cut straight to the point, in a way that would have been unimaginable a couple of years ago. Would this have happened if the PAD had not come on the streets again after the elections? Possibly but I am not so sure.
Hrrrrrrrrrrr. I am lazy to write this thing, but can’t help….
PAD has announced long time before (more than a month) that 70/30 is just a quick example.
The authors should be more updated about the New Politics before thinking to write about it.
I wouldn’t say more… This article is absolutely biased base on anti-PAD side.
2. New politics for the Kingdom of Thailand is true democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy with the following goals:
2.1 Support for good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power so all sectors of society are ensured justice.
2.2 The public must be allowed participation in politics. New politics will not only see politicians elected from constituencies but will see representation from all sectors, such as representatives from different vocations and groups. This will be designed by a Constitution that sees public participation to ensure a true democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy.
…
… The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70 : 30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussions. It is not a fixed formula advocated by the PAD. We are ready for a discussion from all sides on designing new politics and will respect the majority decision for new politics that is ethical, moral, and more representative of the varied social sectors to go in line with the lifestyles and culture of Thailand but still upholding democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy.
democratic elections, one person one vote, systems dont absolutely
guarantee good governments but democracy does limit the damage, because
every so often the MPs have to be accountable to the people
the US is an example of poor governments, the scandinavian countries and, dare I say it, Australia are examples where the governments are
reasonably good
apart from the elite that wont let go, its the institutions that support the democratic system that seems to be the big issue in Thailand, and to an extent the US
the legal system must be strong, its judges must be insulated from
political whims and be guided by precedent where every court must
reference previous decisions to ensure long term consistent decisions… the Legislature (parliament) makes the laws, the legal system enforces and administers the laws
the bureaucracy, police and military must be under policy and financial control by the civilian government and all should be strongly supported by the government so their morale is high and they can perform to the best of their ability
a constitutional monarchy is preferred to a presidential system
(republic), because, as in the US, if a president is elected then he can
claim authority from the people and be superior to the parliament, this is the crux of the argument in Australia about becoming a republic… noone wants a president that can control the parliament because of the horrible US example
Thailand was on the right track, sooner or later Thaksin would be
rejected and the government would have opened up to other players,
meanwhile Thailand gained from his energy and nation building capabilities
Yes, many sides are responsible for the October 7th tragedy as accused by Chang Noi. And, yes, “Thai democracy is in a state of (SELF) immolation” according to Michael Connor and he has outlined interesting plausible scenarios – but as he said, reality often takes on a life of its own… The latest episode provides an excellent example.
As the smoke settles on this latest series of Thai crisis, Chavalit and Chamlong seem to emerge as the critical catalysts/provocateurs. Whatever actually transpired in their meeting between “brothers” to “peacefully resolve” the conflict, led directly to events on the 7th.
The interesting question for me: was it about the peace or actually the derailing of peace? The ‘surrender’ and arrest of Chamlong seemed to be a tactic to re-activate the base (to borrow Sarah Palin’s effect on right-wing Republicans) responding to PMSomchai’s soft, concilliatory approach (he had called tycoon Sonthi earlier and had an amicable meeting with PMPrem), while PMChavalit’s involvement in the planning of the police offensive and later his call for a coup (to derail PMThaksin’s 21st October court verdict???) seem to point to the latter direction…
On the other hand, it may be a strictly legal path to peaceful resolution – with the eventual surrender of PAD’s leadership to lesser crimes as strong evidence and the set up of the new constitution drafting committee endorsed by all sides…
If the latter was the case (which I personally believe it is) what went wrong???
“Reality” – KYPornthip’s investigation points to Chinese-made gas-bombs containing excessive explosives (and Nick Nostitz got to experience its destructive capacity firsthand – ah, globalization’s cruel realities… Chinese melamine-tainted milk and explosives-tainted gas bombs; US-tainted subprimes – and maybe more hawkish McCain-Palin presidency???). To compound the matter, YouTube reveals that the Thai police didn’t know how to shoot it – they shot straight, horizontal at the crowds. From Nick Nostitz’ report, the police seemed as shocked of the devastative effects…
The Nation mentioned that the Chinese-made gas bombs were bought in 1993 – post Black May (interestingly post Tiananmen as well) – which reflects the general good intent of the security forces. However, going on a detour here, one wonders why the Thai police would procure crowd control equipments from the Chinese not known for peaceful crowd control (no one knows their latest performance at Tibet pre-Olympics)…
Anyway, that’s not the main point. My current analysis points to very poor equipments and poor training of the police/military in crowd control (and the military’s hesitancy to ‘deal’ with PAD under PMSamak’s orders is not surprising in this light – and the recent history with Takbai). Had they been given the best equipment and training and they were minimal casualties, I suspect things will be significantly different.
Frankly, I don’t know what will happen from here. The “Reds” are mobilizing at Muang Thong and Sanam Luang. HM the Queen now openly supports PAD. PMSomchai came back from an audience with HMK disoriented… Maybe a house disolution to buy time? (but the coalition has not filled their election war chest yet)
I support the amendment of the 2007 Constitution through a broad participatory and transparent process as the way out of this (and I commend PMSomchai here, a powerless figure with a domineering wife and the Master Puppet brother-in-law)… I emphathize with many desparate PADites, urban middle-classes that seek a less democratic 70:30 or 50:50 solution – but I don’t support punishing the poor by diluting their voting rights for something they are not guilty off. I am also glad the GenAnupong is keeping calm and not staging a coup (but exerting pressure in other ways)…
I hope they are other ways to strengthen the rule of law, checks-and-balances, accountability, civic participation involvement etc. in Thai democracy. Maybe heavier penalties for electoral cheats and for abusing power? Life-time ban from politics? Hefty fines, asset-seizures???
Meanwhile, history repeats itself. When there are civil strive in Thailand, Cambodia (PMHun Sen) opportunistically attacks!
We have to accept that PM Somchai is a weak character and none of this would have happened, if he had not been ordered to get tough with the PAD by his sponsor. He seems barely able to cope with the enormity of what he has done and will probably not last long but will probably not be replaced by any one better.
The urban middle classes seem to have outgrown the pattern of rule by corrupt politicians interspersed with brief periods of military rule and want something a bit closer to Western style democracy where politicians are held accountable for their actions and go to jail for corruption. They are fed up with politicians regarding politics as a business where you invest more than your competitors to gain power and earn huge returns looted from the taxpayer.
Unfortunately a badly paid, corrupt, poorly trained and undisciplined police force that is solely accountable to central government is something that suits the corrupt politicians very well. How could they function with a bunch of well trained, efficient, clean cops with good packages and benefits investigating political corruption all the time?
What happened on 10/7 is the natural result of this bankrupt political system. It will keep happening until there is real political change resulting in accountability for both politicians and police.
>PAD who shot at the police (if he is really a PAD not 3rd party disguised as PAD)…
Fair enough, but one then should ask: Why do many of the PAD guards constantly wear ski masks or bandannas covering their faces when in public (and not just when there is tear gas)?
The answer is simple: It is to disguise their identities when carrying out illegal or morally repugnant acts. It also allows them to raise the specter of third parties carrying out such acts.
I’d add that this has been a pretty standard practice among a small number of militants demonstrating in the West as long as I can remember, and particularly at various anti-globalization actions.
The difference is that they are usually disowned, rather than embraced, by mainstream nonviolent protest organizers, and no one pretends that the troublemakers have been peaceable.
“But in 1998 everything changed.” >> I am aware of the “Big Bang” kind of decentralization under Habibie. What were the conditions in Indonesia at that time? Why was decentralization seen as an important political tool and as a strictly top-down approach by a president with a lot of power? What was the role of Indonesia’s international relations? Do we have conditions in present-day Thailand that are comparable to those existent in post-Sueharto Indonesia? Can we expect such conditions to develop in the near future? What alternative conditions might lead to the result desired by you?
The issue of decentralization in Thailand during the past two decades, and even more so the problems in the South, has been quite complex. I am not even sure whether it is useful only to put these issues together. In fact, references to the North and the Northeast might be more to the point, which brings us to the issue of secession dreaded by the Thai elite discourse.
By the way, there is a recent MA thesis by a US military officer in which he ponders the value of decentralization for the solution of the Southern problem (submitted to the Thai Studies Center at Chulalongkorn University).
Coincidentally, I received an email today telling me that one of the Indonesians involved in the so-called “negotiations” with Southern Thai-Muslim rebels was very interested to know whether the stipulations on local government contained in the 2007 Constitution would actually facilitate the establishment of a special administrative zone in the South.
Anyway, if you think that your ideas have value for Thailand, why don’t you put them together in a newspaper article and send it to Bangkok Post so that more Thai readers might take note of them?
Is PAD interested in reconciliation, or only in “victory”?
Dear Nicks
I am sure they do, even some PAD leaders, they really think about that, but what have happened so far is the government has not been frank to them. Please read this article “Ten Most Popular Questions which PADs are bored answering“. I have done my best to translate it to English some weeks ago. And then look at the ugly cabinet. Look at the policy of renting national park. Look at the 6000 bus project. Look at how the proxy government do nothing with the lese majesty web sites on the Internet. Most importantly look at Somchai’s face on latest announcement in NBT.
…
It is very important that majority of PAD protesters really believe in peaceful demonstration, that’s why they join the protest from the first place. There are several ocassions that PAD leaders changed their decision to avoid a clash with the red shirt. If they really believed in violence, they should have encouraged PAD to confront with the red shirts. There are a SantiAsoke and a Thai monk giving a dhama talk for the protesters. There are concerts, Chinese opera, Poetry Performing, and other Art Performing. Have you ever seen a protest like this in other countries? This is why there are more and more people joining the campaign. As you said, several parents took an infant child with them, some took a pet. Didn’t they do it because they thought the place was safe for their children? Protesting had been very peaceful until the anti-PAD group marching down the street (didn’t they look drunk to you?) trying to start a war. I am sure you can now notice less children after the police crackdown. Because some parents realize that it wasn’t safe for their kids anymore, but they still do support by donation, or praying for their fellow PADs. You can find lots of interesting to write about the red shirts too (have you ever done so?)
You mentioned that you have talked to some polices after the event. Probably, you may try to find some PADs to speak with as well. I believe there are many people wanted to talk with you, express their feeling about why they were there. I was in the back line seeing many people joining and joining including a mature man in shirts and slacks (like those people from Silom) Why they have to do this and that. and I really believe they think that the decision to besiege the parliament on October 6,7 is the right decision. I do think so. Even someone in the Somchai’s cabinet was thinking to change the announcement place, some said it was ok to postpone. But some hardcore in the government still insisted to go on, you can further investigate on this. (Look up for Dr.Pornthip interview). There were also some PAD thinking that they should occupy the parliament like what PAD did when occupying the government house. But the PAD leader don’t want to do that. Ekayuth Anchanbuth of thaiinsider.com mentioned that PAD leader was waiting a military coup but it is also not true. He also suggested that the moment of people revolution has passed (he thought the result would have been better if PAD really occupied the parliament)
You shouldn’t underestimate the heart power of PAD. Although some of PADs were in doubt about Sondhi for example. Some even disliked him. But they thought that this was only the last chance to do something before they couldn’t do anything at all. The way they kept joining the campaign more and more even they knew that it was no longer safe. Even though they know that they can get hurt, they can become disabled… Don’t you know why they keep on joining? Being mass brain washed? I would repeat this again. They thought it is their last chance to fight for the righteousness, fight for their kings and queens, fight for their country, fight for their descendants. I don’t know if this is still categorized under the political subject, but it is more likely to be the life matter for PAD now. Do you know what the dead lady spoke shortly before the moment of her death?
This may sound like another PAD propaganda, I really don’t mean to.. I just want to show respect to those PAD with pure heart. Let the story be heard by the rest of the world. And the time will heal, people will hopefully will be judged for what they did.
…. Until then… be at full alert looking forward to Oct 21 ….
I very much agree that the responsible parties that have supplied police with these far too strong tear gas grenades should be investigated and maybe prosecuted. There definitely is a clear problem with police budgeting and supplies, and this day was a sad proof why Thailand needs a better equipped police force. I doubt that there would be many Police officers who would dispute that fact.
But officers on the ground had very little choice.
Also BMA, which has refused the firefighting vehicles, has to be held responsible. It is well known that BMA does more than just slightly support PAD, and hinders police work regarding any action against PAD. This has gone horribly wrong on that day.
But so far i have not read one word of BMA regarding this. Why?
The Pamphlet now distributed by PAD – “Damluat Kah Prachachon” – is very strong agitation, and extremely one sided propaganda. Photos selected there are not evenhanded information – not one image of the injured officers, such as the one where the police officer is stabbed in the chest, or the sickening incident of the pick up truck.
I was also very surprised to find General Amnuay Nimano being pointed out there in this pamphlet. I have many times talked with him over the last few years at different incidents, and known him as an unusually friendly, unpretentious and open Police General, very different from many others of his rank.
The more distance i get to this day, the more i am convinced that this day was a chain of events that went very wrong, but not “Police killing the People”.
The ones responsible for budgeting and equipping Police have to take responsibility.
BMA has to take responsibility.
PAD has clearly went a step too far by blocking parliament and erecting barricades, and have cornered the state. The PAD leaders that have ordered this must take responsibility.
This was bad planning – they should have known that such an action is legally on more than fishy ground, and that the state at some point must react.
I do feel very sorry for the ordinary protesters who got maimed, and the girl that lost her life. But i feel also very sorry for the injured Police officers who have done nothing but their duty. I would like to see such sentiments expressed by PAD as well, and also an open condemnation of its members that have injured those officers.
Such might be the first step for reconciliation.
Is PAD interested in reconciliation, or only in “victory”?
Even an Oxford alumnus has turned out to be devoid of the Oxonian spirit when he is involved in Thai politics. All the things that are happening now merely prove that we Thais put self above service and that what we keep harping about loyalty to king and country is but lip service.
Now should be a time for reflection, and not for agitation.
—
Nick, you are right about this. But many People didn’t think like you Thai Police should have done that quickly right after the crackdown and this is why PADs tried to reclaim casualties’ reputation back, and this is why my poor English web site is there at least trying to do such purpose.
They should have accepted that the war weapon was used in the crackdown. The spontaneous firing from inside the police HQ in the evening which instantly killed one fine lady shouldn’t have happened. But what Thai Police did? They told the press that it was possible for the Thai lady to carry a bomb with her which killed herself. Not counting those pro-Thaksin on the internet that kept on trying to twist the story whenever they can.
And after everything is too late, the chief police ordered two barking police officers to keep their mouth sealed and expressed “deep sorry and apologize” just a day before a national police day (13 Oct), but what for the prime minister? He said “sorry” and continue his bullshit on the latest NBT TV program on the same day.
And what is now? The Queen and her daughter came by themselves to the cremation funeral. The highest honor (first-time in the history?) that a normal civilian family have got such honor..
Who arrange such a military-grade weapon should be responsible and sent to jail. Who fired at people like they intend to kill should be sent to jail. Who ordered the police to do such thing when knowing by heart what would be happening should also be condemned for the rest of their life and sent to jail.
PAD who shot at the police (if he is really a PAD not 3rd party disguised as PAD) should also be responsible for the crime he did unless he can proof that he did that to protect his life or someone else life.. (however carrying a gun around like that is still illegal)
The same rule apply to the Toyota’s case , where a possible driver is now at the hospital and loss one of his eye during the crackdown..
And like you said “that needs a long investigation by qualified authorities.” something that Thai people (not just PAD) always wish but hardly come true.
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Blood rather than ballots
L S Schwartz writes: “A shame that the term “fascism” has been so abused and misapplied in current discourse that one cannot recognize what is a textbook example of it .”
You are right about the overuse of the term fascism; certain recent “conservative” uses of it in the States come to mind. There is much more to fascism than corporatism, of course, and here’s a good start for a “textbook example” for consideration of the topic- Umberto Eco’s “Eternal Fascism:
Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt” http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html
I’ve done my own comparison of PAD action with Eco’s brilliant 14-point checklist, and find their behavior and “policies” match up nicely to all all but maybe a couple of items. In addition to the obvious such as “the cult of tradition,” “irrationalism,” and “disagreement is treason,” how about this?
6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration.
That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.
As to bloodshed over ballots, Eco has that covered, too:
. . .the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.
Blood rather than ballots
anyone else who supports Thaksin is bought
Who did mention that?.. My uncle also support Thaksin, I don’t think he has been bought. This sounds like “Any PAD is paid to join the protest in Bangkok”.
For the rest of argument here, only the time can tell.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Objective writing, reporting? No author is objective. They may wish to be, but it is humanly impossible.
Nick’s report is interesting, from his perspective, but it is only from his perspective an vantage point.
Portman’s statements are the best in his whole exchange. He obviously has a keen understanding of the current situation in Thailand.
David Brown, on the other hand, has a poor understanding of the US political system and is obviously neither objective nor informed. A lot of crap has come out of the US government, but not for the reason he stated.
As far as democracies are concerned, none are perfect (if there is such a thing), and it takes years to develop one. Thailand is far from it. More concerning is the present time in history. It is one thing to develop a democracy 200 years ago, but today it is extremely difficult. There are too many people, there is too much media, and with the Internet anyone, no matter how off base or uninformed, has a voice.
Most of the world’s governments are, most unfortunately, in the crapper and nobody seems to know what to do about it. The next decade will be interesting, brutally so, but interesting. There are no, or few, world leaders. If there were, the world wouldn’t be in this mess.
What is happening now is not good for Thailand, and when things get so out of whack a true leader would not have let the conflict with PAD escalate to where it did. The government failed regardless of the politics of PAD.
I wish the Thai people and the future of Thailand the best through all this turmoil. I hope I am both able and allowed live the rest of my life here and die here. I just hope the death part of it is later rather than sooner, and by natural causes, not a civil conflict.
Blood rather than ballots
re: Vorapoap
The authors should be more updated about the New Politics before thinking to write about it.
I assume the authors, and others, are already updated about “New Politics” considering it is exact same brand of corporatism that Benito Mussolini proposed in his essay, “The Doctrine of Fascism,” published in 1932. (1932? Hmmm…that date sounds familiar.)
A shame that the term “fascism” has been so abused and misapplied in current discourse that one cannot recognize what is a textbook example of it .
Blood rather than ballots
No kidding, Vorapoap, that this article is against PAD. The reason why people should be against PAD is apparent enough. No matter how much “people participation” you put in your document, the concept is clear: “people” means us, anyone else who supports Thaksin is bought and therefore not a part of the people. Otherwise PAD would have accepted the vote a long time ago.
P.S. Spare us the claptrap about PPP buying votes. With or without vote buying from any of the parties, people would have voted for PPP anyways. The polls are clear enough. Now why didn’t Sondhi try convincing these people? Is he only good at preaching to the converted? Could it be because most of what he says is extremely biased hearsay?
Blood rather than ballots
Vorapoap at Bangkok Pundit: I am the author of http://pad.vfly.net
So you know what you get.
Blood rather than ballots
“The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70 : 30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussions. ”
Weasel words. If they aren’t serious about having “70:30” as part of their platform they shouldn’t have used the “example.” Surely they believe such a setup is at least viable, and that alone is sufficiently damning.
The essay is hardly based on an anti-PAD bias. The authors strongly suggest that if the PAD leadership had sufficient patience and conviction they might gradually come to do well against a faltering PPP. Instead Sondhi and Chamlong have decided to show their fascist stripes, and are willing to sacrifice the lives of others to get their way.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
I agree with most of what you say David, particularly the need for a strong legal system. Thailand’s judicial branch has traditionally been extremely weak and prone to corruption and manipulation. Being a judge is a career chosen soon after graduation by young people with the right connections, unlike in Anglo Saxon judicial systems where judges tend to be successful baristers or trial lawyers who have earned strong reputations already and have usually saved enough money to be less susceptible to bribery i.e. they have a lot to lose. Of course there are also no juries, which would be vunerable to bribery and intimidation anyway, and cases are usually heard a day a month rather than consecutively and judges may change several times during the trial, so that a judge who missed major parts of the trial may pronounce judgement and sentence.
Thailand’s legal system is also unfortunately not based on precedent at all. It is a Roman/European legal system that is based on individual judge’s personal interpretations of statutory law with no obligation on them to refer to precedent. Many recent cases seem to have ignored precedent e.g. the Constitutional Court found Thaksin not guilty of asset concealment in 2001, having found Sanan guilty of the same offence under not dissimilar circumstances a week earlier. The decision to adopt this type of legal system was made under Absolute Monarchy, probably for good reasons at the time, but it may no longer be very suitable for the present day. Now it would be extremely difficult to overhaul the legal system and switch to an Anglo Saxon precedent based system, although it may in fact be worth the effort. At any rate judicial reform would have to go hand in hand with police reform to be fully effective and neither is in the interests of the corrupt politicians that routinely get elected my the majority.
Whatever anyone thinks about the PAD and its leader are certainly flakey and some of its method are downright unlawful, the ongoing PAD demonstrations provide the judiciary with the background to judge the ongoing political cases solely according to the law without submitting to bribery and intimididation. Looking at the evidence and judgment in the tax fraud case against Potjaman and her associates, the Criminal Court seems to me to have conducted itself in an exemplary manner. This seemed an open and shut case of tax evasion that any court in an Anglo Saxon country would certainly have convicted in and the Thai court cut straight to the point, in a way that would have been unimaginable a couple of years ago. Would this have happened if the PAD had not come on the streets again after the elections? Possibly but I am not so sure.
Blood rather than ballots
Hrrrrrrrrrrr. I am lazy to write this thing, but can’t help….
PAD has announced long time before (more than a month) that 70/30 is just a quick example.
The authors should be more updated about the New Politics before thinking to write about it.
I wouldn’t say more… This article is absolutely biased base on anti-PAD side.
PAD’s announcement on New Politics
What happened on 7/10/2008?
democratic elections, one person one vote, systems dont absolutely
guarantee good governments but democracy does limit the damage, because
every so often the MPs have to be accountable to the people
the US is an example of poor governments, the scandinavian countries and, dare I say it, Australia are examples where the governments are
reasonably good
apart from the elite that wont let go, its the institutions that support the democratic system that seems to be the big issue in Thailand, and to an extent the US
the legal system must be strong, its judges must be insulated from
political whims and be guided by precedent where every court must
reference previous decisions to ensure long term consistent decisions… the Legislature (parliament) makes the laws, the legal system enforces and administers the laws
the bureaucracy, police and military must be under policy and financial control by the civilian government and all should be strongly supported by the government so their morale is high and they can perform to the best of their ability
a constitutional monarchy is preferred to a presidential system
(republic), because, as in the US, if a president is elected then he can
claim authority from the people and be superior to the parliament, this is the crux of the argument in Australia about becoming a republic… noone wants a president that can control the parliament because of the horrible US example
Thailand was on the right track, sooner or later Thaksin would be
rejected and the government would have opened up to other players,
meanwhile Thailand gained from his energy and nation building capabilities
Chang Noi holds both sides responsible
Yes, many sides are responsible for the October 7th tragedy as accused by Chang Noi. And, yes, “Thai democracy is in a state of (SELF) immolation” according to Michael Connor and he has outlined interesting plausible scenarios – but as he said, reality often takes on a life of its own… The latest episode provides an excellent example.
As the smoke settles on this latest series of Thai crisis, Chavalit and Chamlong seem to emerge as the critical catalysts/provocateurs. Whatever actually transpired in their meeting between “brothers” to “peacefully resolve” the conflict, led directly to events on the 7th.
The interesting question for me: was it about the peace or actually the derailing of peace? The ‘surrender’ and arrest of Chamlong seemed to be a tactic to re-activate the base (to borrow Sarah Palin’s effect on right-wing Republicans) responding to PMSomchai’s soft, concilliatory approach (he had called tycoon Sonthi earlier and had an amicable meeting with PMPrem), while PMChavalit’s involvement in the planning of the police offensive and later his call for a coup (to derail PMThaksin’s 21st October court verdict???) seem to point to the latter direction…
On the other hand, it may be a strictly legal path to peaceful resolution – with the eventual surrender of PAD’s leadership to lesser crimes as strong evidence and the set up of the new constitution drafting committee endorsed by all sides…
If the latter was the case (which I personally believe it is) what went wrong???
“Reality” – KYPornthip’s investigation points to Chinese-made gas-bombs containing excessive explosives (and Nick Nostitz got to experience its destructive capacity firsthand – ah, globalization’s cruel realities… Chinese melamine-tainted milk and explosives-tainted gas bombs; US-tainted subprimes – and maybe more hawkish McCain-Palin presidency???). To compound the matter, YouTube reveals that the Thai police didn’t know how to shoot it – they shot straight, horizontal at the crowds. From Nick Nostitz’ report, the police seemed as shocked of the devastative effects…
The Nation mentioned that the Chinese-made gas bombs were bought in 1993 – post Black May (interestingly post Tiananmen as well) – which reflects the general good intent of the security forces. However, going on a detour here, one wonders why the Thai police would procure crowd control equipments from the Chinese not known for peaceful crowd control (no one knows their latest performance at Tibet pre-Olympics)…
Anyway, that’s not the main point. My current analysis points to very poor equipments and poor training of the police/military in crowd control (and the military’s hesitancy to ‘deal’ with PAD under PMSamak’s orders is not surprising in this light – and the recent history with Takbai). Had they been given the best equipment and training and they were minimal casualties, I suspect things will be significantly different.
Frankly, I don’t know what will happen from here. The “Reds” are mobilizing at Muang Thong and Sanam Luang. HM the Queen now openly supports PAD. PMSomchai came back from an audience with HMK disoriented… Maybe a house disolution to buy time? (but the coalition has not filled their election war chest yet)
I support the amendment of the 2007 Constitution through a broad participatory and transparent process as the way out of this (and I commend PMSomchai here, a powerless figure with a domineering wife and the Master Puppet brother-in-law)… I emphathize with many desparate PADites, urban middle-classes that seek a less democratic 70:30 or 50:50 solution – but I don’t support punishing the poor by diluting their voting rights for something they are not guilty off. I am also glad the GenAnupong is keeping calm and not staging a coup (but exerting pressure in other ways)…
I hope they are other ways to strengthen the rule of law, checks-and-balances, accountability, civic participation involvement etc. in Thai democracy. Maybe heavier penalties for electoral cheats and for abusing power? Life-time ban from politics? Hefty fines, asset-seizures???
Meanwhile, history repeats itself. When there are civil strive in Thailand, Cambodia (PMHun Sen) opportunistically attacks!
What happened on 7/10/2008?
We have to accept that PM Somchai is a weak character and none of this would have happened, if he had not been ordered to get tough with the PAD by his sponsor. He seems barely able to cope with the enormity of what he has done and will probably not last long but will probably not be replaced by any one better.
The urban middle classes seem to have outgrown the pattern of rule by corrupt politicians interspersed with brief periods of military rule and want something a bit closer to Western style democracy where politicians are held accountable for their actions and go to jail for corruption. They are fed up with politicians regarding politics as a business where you invest more than your competitors to gain power and earn huge returns looted from the taxpayer.
Unfortunately a badly paid, corrupt, poorly trained and undisciplined police force that is solely accountable to central government is something that suits the corrupt politicians very well. How could they function with a bunch of well trained, efficient, clean cops with good packages and benefits investigating political corruption all the time?
What happened on 10/7 is the natural result of this bankrupt political system. It will keep happening until there is real political change resulting in accountability for both politicians and police.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
>PAD who shot at the police (if he is really a PAD not 3rd party disguised as PAD)…
Fair enough, but one then should ask: Why do many of the PAD guards constantly wear ski masks or bandannas covering their faces when in public (and not just when there is tear gas)?
The answer is simple: It is to disguise their identities when carrying out illegal or morally repugnant acts. It also allows them to raise the specter of third parties carrying out such acts.
I’d add that this has been a pretty standard practice among a small number of militants demonstrating in the West as long as I can remember, and particularly at various anti-globalization actions.
The difference is that they are usually disowned, rather than embraced, by mainstream nonviolent protest organizers, and no one pretends that the troublemakers have been peaceable.
A way forward for Thai politics?
“But in 1998 everything changed.” >> I am aware of the “Big Bang” kind of decentralization under Habibie. What were the conditions in Indonesia at that time? Why was decentralization seen as an important political tool and as a strictly top-down approach by a president with a lot of power? What was the role of Indonesia’s international relations? Do we have conditions in present-day Thailand that are comparable to those existent in post-Sueharto Indonesia? Can we expect such conditions to develop in the near future? What alternative conditions might lead to the result desired by you?
The issue of decentralization in Thailand during the past two decades, and even more so the problems in the South, has been quite complex. I am not even sure whether it is useful only to put these issues together. In fact, references to the North and the Northeast might be more to the point, which brings us to the issue of secession dreaded by the Thai elite discourse.
By the way, there is a recent MA thesis by a US military officer in which he ponders the value of decentralization for the solution of the Southern problem (submitted to the Thai Studies Center at Chulalongkorn University).
Coincidentally, I received an email today telling me that one of the Indonesians involved in the so-called “negotiations” with Southern Thai-Muslim rebels was very interested to know whether the stipulations on local government contained in the 2007 Constitution would actually facilitate the establishment of a special administrative zone in the South.
Anyway, if you think that your ideas have value for Thailand, why don’t you put them together in a newspaper article and send it to Bangkok Post so that more Thai readers might take note of them?
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Is PAD interested in reconciliation, or only in “victory”?
Dear Nicks
I am sure they do, even some PAD leaders, they really think about that, but what have happened so far is the government has not been frank to them. Please read this article “Ten Most Popular Questions which PADs are bored answering“. I have done my best to translate it to English some weeks ago. And then look at the ugly cabinet. Look at the policy of renting national park. Look at the 6000 bus project. Look at how the proxy government do nothing with the lese majesty web sites on the Internet. Most importantly look at Somchai’s face on latest announcement in NBT.
…
It is very important that majority of PAD protesters really believe in peaceful demonstration, that’s why they join the protest from the first place. There are several ocassions that PAD leaders changed their decision to avoid a clash with the red shirt. If they really believed in violence, they should have encouraged PAD to confront with the red shirts. There are a SantiAsoke and a Thai monk giving a dhama talk for the protesters. There are concerts, Chinese opera, Poetry Performing, and other Art Performing. Have you ever seen a protest like this in other countries? This is why there are more and more people joining the campaign. As you said, several parents took an infant child with them, some took a pet. Didn’t they do it because they thought the place was safe for their children? Protesting had been very peaceful until the anti-PAD group marching down the street (didn’t they look drunk to you?) trying to start a war. I am sure you can now notice less children after the police crackdown. Because some parents realize that it wasn’t safe for their kids anymore, but they still do support by donation, or praying for their fellow PADs. You can find lots of interesting to write about the red shirts too (have you ever done so?)
You mentioned that you have talked to some polices after the event. Probably, you may try to find some PADs to speak with as well. I believe there are many people wanted to talk with you, express their feeling about why they were there. I was in the back line seeing many people joining and joining including a mature man in shirts and slacks (like those people from Silom) Why they have to do this and that. and I really believe they think that the decision to besiege the parliament on October 6,7 is the right decision. I do think so. Even someone in the Somchai’s cabinet was thinking to change the announcement place, some said it was ok to postpone. But some hardcore in the government still insisted to go on, you can further investigate on this. (Look up for Dr.Pornthip interview). There were also some PAD thinking that they should occupy the parliament like what PAD did when occupying the government house. But the PAD leader don’t want to do that. Ekayuth Anchanbuth of thaiinsider.com mentioned that PAD leader was waiting a military coup but it is also not true. He also suggested that the moment of people revolution has passed (he thought the result would have been better if PAD really occupied the parliament)
You shouldn’t underestimate the heart power of PAD. Although some of PADs were in doubt about Sondhi for example. Some even disliked him. But they thought that this was only the last chance to do something before they couldn’t do anything at all. The way they kept joining the campaign more and more even they knew that it was no longer safe. Even though they know that they can get hurt, they can become disabled… Don’t you know why they keep on joining? Being mass brain washed? I would repeat this again. They thought it is their last chance to fight for the righteousness, fight for their kings and queens, fight for their country, fight for their descendants. I don’t know if this is still categorized under the political subject, but it is more likely to be the life matter for PAD now. Do you know what the dead lady spoke shortly before the moment of her death?
This may sound like another PAD propaganda, I really don’t mean to.. I just want to show respect to those PAD with pure heart. Let the story be heard by the rest of the world. And the time will heal, people will hopefully will be judged for what they did.
…. Until then… be at full alert looking forward to Oct 21 ….
“The police murder the people”
Those kind of publishing has nothing to do with the world peace.
On royal silence
Anyone with an ounce of brain cannot help agreeing with Her Royal Highness. Long may She prosper.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
“Vorapoap”:
I very much agree that the responsible parties that have supplied police with these far too strong tear gas grenades should be investigated and maybe prosecuted. There definitely is a clear problem with police budgeting and supplies, and this day was a sad proof why Thailand needs a better equipped police force. I doubt that there would be many Police officers who would dispute that fact.
But officers on the ground had very little choice.
Also BMA, which has refused the firefighting vehicles, has to be held responsible. It is well known that BMA does more than just slightly support PAD, and hinders police work regarding any action against PAD. This has gone horribly wrong on that day.
But so far i have not read one word of BMA regarding this. Why?
The Pamphlet now distributed by PAD – “Damluat Kah Prachachon” – is very strong agitation, and extremely one sided propaganda. Photos selected there are not evenhanded information – not one image of the injured officers, such as the one where the police officer is stabbed in the chest, or the sickening incident of the pick up truck.
I was also very surprised to find General Amnuay Nimano being pointed out there in this pamphlet. I have many times talked with him over the last few years at different incidents, and known him as an unusually friendly, unpretentious and open Police General, very different from many others of his rank.
The more distance i get to this day, the more i am convinced that this day was a chain of events that went very wrong, but not “Police killing the People”.
The ones responsible for budgeting and equipping Police have to take responsibility.
BMA has to take responsibility.
PAD has clearly went a step too far by blocking parliament and erecting barricades, and have cornered the state. The PAD leaders that have ordered this must take responsibility.
This was bad planning – they should have known that such an action is legally on more than fishy ground, and that the state at some point must react.
I do feel very sorry for the ordinary protesters who got maimed, and the girl that lost her life. But i feel also very sorry for the injured Police officers who have done nothing but their duty. I would like to see such sentiments expressed by PAD as well, and also an open condemnation of its members that have injured those officers.
Such might be the first step for reconciliation.
Is PAD interested in reconciliation, or only in “victory”?
Chang Noi holds both sides responsible
Even an Oxford alumnus has turned out to be devoid of the Oxonian spirit when he is involved in Thai politics. All the things that are happening now merely prove that we Thais put self above service and that what we keep harping about loyalty to king and country is but lip service.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Now should be a time for reflection, and not for agitation.
—
Nick, you are right about this. But many People didn’t think like you Thai Police should have done that quickly right after the crackdown and this is why PADs tried to reclaim casualties’ reputation back, and this is why my poor English web site is there at least trying to do such purpose.
They should have accepted that the war weapon was used in the crackdown. The spontaneous firing from inside the police HQ in the evening which instantly killed one fine lady shouldn’t have happened. But what Thai Police did? They told the press that it was possible for the Thai lady to carry a bomb with her which killed herself. Not counting those pro-Thaksin on the internet that kept on trying to twist the story whenever they can.
And after everything is too late, the chief police ordered two barking police officers to keep their mouth sealed and expressed “deep sorry and apologize” just a day before a national police day (13 Oct), but what for the prime minister? He said “sorry” and continue his bullshit on the latest NBT TV program on the same day.
And what is now? The Queen and her daughter came by themselves to the cremation funeral. The highest honor (first-time in the history?) that a normal civilian family have got such honor..
Who arrange such a military-grade weapon should be responsible and sent to jail. Who fired at people like they intend to kill should be sent to jail. Who ordered the police to do such thing when knowing by heart what would be happening should also be condemned for the rest of their life and sent to jail.
PAD who shot at the police (if he is really a PAD not 3rd party disguised as PAD) should also be responsible for the crime he did unless he can proof that he did that to protect his life or someone else life.. (however carrying a gun around like that is still illegal)
The same rule apply to the Toyota’s case , where a possible driver is now at the hospital and loss one of his eye during the crackdown..
And like you said “that needs a long investigation by qualified authorities.” something that Thai people (not just PAD) always wish but hardly come true.