Charllie- thats the site I looked at over a year ago. It hasn’t changed and the email address in the contact us section is no longer active. You may notice that that all of the updates seem to stop around 1998. All of the photos are expired as well. I think it is safe to say it has been forgotten.
[…] One of the most fascinating transformations that has occurred recently in the uplands of southeast Asia is the rapid adoption of rubber in the border districts of north-western Laos. In many upland regions, tree crops are seen as a desirable alternative by state agencies seeking to “stabilise” shifting cultivation systems. In north-western Laos rapidly improving connections to the dynamic Chinese market,┬ and the cross-border proximity of well established rubber plantations in southern Yunnan, has encouraged the southern expansion of “borders of rubber“. […]
All right Jon. If you can’t fight them, join them. Make them doubly rich for good measure, why don’t you? Negotiate, that’s if they let you, and engage constructively as the non-Western states have been doing for the last whatever. Talk like Gambari and the rest of them before him like you talk to a brick wall. I’d love the West to lift the sanctions if only so you see for yourself how well that option works. Good luck.
“Here we go again, Jon’s broken record, stuck in a rut, namely his reductionist version of economic determinism, never mind the choices the rulers make or deny, the priorities they set themselves for themselves. ”
To butt your head stubbornly against the wall for 20 years with the same failed strategy, the opposition strategy, is truly: a broken record, stuck in a rut.
Moe Aung you’re displaying the same true believer behavioural characteristics here that, for instance, puts Georgetown political scientist on a black list of enemies because he suggests alternatives, which is exactly his job as a political scientist.
“If Sharp serves the purpose, a means to an end, it certainly is a valuable asset. Both Sinn Fein and the Mahatma inspired the Burmese independence movement. All options should be considered.”
And the one most obvious option is to withdraw economic sanctions.
Sharp is just a minor variation on the last 20 years of going absolutely nowhere.
I hope one of them will cover the Bangkok Governor Election.
It’s amazing that Chuwit can garner 20% of the vote (according to most polls)…. I believe they are the people just pissed off at the current state of politics as is.
The web site idea has been sugested several times. It seems there was an attempt, the site I saw has poorly constructed, negelected and labeled as a false KNU/ KNLA site on other blogs and sites. I looked at the site several times over several months and decided it had been abandoned, left adrift in cyberspace because ther had been no changes or updates. I have not even looked for “it” or a new one in a year. Now is the time this idea should be revisited.
There were a number of settlements in the higher forest areas of Kamphengphet in the late 1970s. These appear to have been facilitated by some section of the Thai armed forces, in an effort to conquer the forest (and thus preclude insurgent camps from the CPT). Mien and Hmong people were there well into the 1980s but were evicted or at least seriously harassed during the 1980s and at least until 1990. Villages were not “official” and it is hard sometimes to get village names. The reasons for eviction were a combination of the political (after CPT surrenders, there was no need for this human shield or whatever to call it), the geopolitical (a good number of the Mien at least were from Laos and had come over in 1973, people who arrived in 1973 were in many cases not accepted in refugee camps, “nothing was happening in Laos at the time”), ecological (you people are destroying trees with your farming methods), and border-work (some Hmong had shot at the Thai military, some people got killed, and road-work stalled. The settlement at the end of the road was known as Thang-Sut, those still further were considered in the forest — so, both extension of national control and an attempt to weed out people from Laos). The closest I have come to identifying villages is that many were considered part of Khlong-Lan, which is now a municipality (Khlong-Lan-Phatthana) and I think also the name of a district. So, somewhere around ten to twenty villages (for sure, perhaps a lot more), that had been officially accommodated and then through the 1980s were largely erased. Many of the inhabitants are in the US (as refugees). Evidence in the public domain: interview p.91 in Prasit Leepreecha, Yanyong Trakanthamrong, and Wisut Leksombun (2547) Mien: Lak-lai Chiwit Jak Khun-khao Su Muang. Chiangmai: Social Research Institute. That interview says there was a mass migration from all over Thailand to this area in 2524-25 (1981-82) when the gov’t coulde guarantee people’s safety after CPT surrenders, and evictions in ’27 (1984). From what I have learned, people started moving in much sooner, and it was officially encouraged.
Eduardo, I know you are joking but a lot of the people in the north 1/2 of the country, who don’t speak out in public or march in protests, are not that far off what you are saying. We used to be a separate kingdom and it may not be that hard for a lot of the people to think that way again not a separate kingdom but a separate area with it’s own national government. It could be ideal, the separatists could have the deep south, The PAD could have Bangkok or whatever it is they want this week, run by their PAD appointed bureaucrats, friends, bankers and lawmakers and they could run it with their deranged ideas about democracy for the elite.
The rest of us up here in the north and northeast, you know the stupid, uneducated, vote bought poor farmers, the one person one vote group, want the good chunk of Siam back… LOL
Just quickly for your information. The KNLA/KNU are made up of Christians and Buddhists. The bulk of Karen people are Buddhist/anamist, not Christian. This is a common mistake many people make and was used to great affect by the military junta in 1995 to enginner a split between a very small number of disgruntled KNLA troops and lable it as religious persecution on the part of the KNU/KNLA leadership. It worked to great affect and led to the abandoning of the KNU/KNLA stronghold at Manerplaw. This matter should be viewed as a Karen struggle for recognition and sustainability of their culture, language and education and social mobility within the Union of Burma. The stop to the present genocide that is taking place and a way forward for all the ethnic groups in Burma to progress towards peace, stability, economic self sustainability, freedom of religious choice and the opportunity for all citizens of Burma to be able to take in upward social and economic mobility under a true federal union that recognises all the citizens of the country. To reduce this conflict to a religious divide is to both enflame and perpetuate the ongoing troubles in the country.
This is perhaps a little funny-sounding, but has become quite common in China, where the gov’t sanctions particular places as “authentic cultural village” and the like. Such a designation becomes a draw for (domestic and international) tourism, government spending, and the like, and reinforces the cliche of China and its 55 ethnic peoples (and there is of course competition among the communities which of them gets designated as authentic, ethnic, and cultural). You can juxtapose Thailand (that officially registers only Thai, the rest of them are kind of alien immigrants, regardless of what history they may have), Laos (with its three kinds of Lao-by-altitude), and Vietnam, that officially has 54 peoples who are all joined (rhetorically) in the struggle against foreign aggression) — the three countries are similar in many ways but come to very different national narratives about identity and culture. But this story from Laos in 2006 is interesting for focusing the headline on cultural villages and then going on to talk about the eonomic productivity of the place (real culture people are no slackers, they can weave x-many baskets in a day that is then multiplied by 180 and given a good dollar-figure). Was there any kind of follow-up in Laos, are places still culture villages? Was this along lines separate from the Lao-Sung, -Thoeng, -Lam?
I agree with you on most points. I have often said that if all the farmers got together and formed a strong organization or political party they would take over Thai politics and probably do a good job at government. Running a country is not much different than running a business or a farm. But alas, we all know that farmers aren’t allowed in government as most don’t have degrees.
To comment on the Samak issue. The court went way beyond, “Upholding the letter of the law, but ignoring the spirit of the law.” They went as far as inventing their own meaning for “Employment” and refused to use the definition as set down in Thai Organic Law. This is like the retroactive law that was used to dissolve the TRT. In Thailand it seems, if you are on the hit list, we will just invent laws and definitions that suit the case to get the outcome we want. That’s not called justice, that’s called injustice.
Trough all the PAD rallies, the downfall of the Thaksin regime and the junta we talked and you always had concise and accurate information on the situation on the ground. Once again you have used your wide knowledge about thailand and the diverse factions that make up it’s society to relay this through your article.
None of us knows how this will end but I truly hope that the poor will not lose what they have managed to gain so far. It is important for a country to measure it’s wealth by the way they treat the poor and infirm. If PAD gets it’s way they will no doubt treat them badly and if that happens Thailand will be morally bankrupt for generations. Our kids, kids will still be trying to dig out of the hole created.
It would be good if the KNLA Christian HQ had a website to communicate directly with the world and state their position “from the horses’ mouth” so to speak. An interested observer would not have to pick through the personalities, back-biting, etc. to find the truth.
If one such website should be forthcoming please let me know. It is hard to know who to trust these days…
[…] nice to those “senior establishment figures” getting a mention. As we have argued on New Mandala, one senior establishment figure in particular has made no attempt to withdraw his […]
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Interview with Professor Charles Keyes
[…] 1983 Charles Keyes wrote “the evidence from monastery libraries in Laos and Thailand reveals that what constitutes […]
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Charllie- thats the site I looked at over a year ago. It hasn’t changed and the email address in the contact us section is no longer active. You may notice that that all of the updates seem to stop around 1998. All of the photos are expired as well. I think it is safe to say it has been forgotten.
Borders of rubber
[…] One of the most fascinating transformations that has occurred recently in the uplands of southeast Asia is the rapid adoption of rubber in the border districts of north-western Laos. In many upland regions, tree crops are seen as a desirable alternative by state agencies seeking to “stabilise” shifting cultivation systems. In north-western Laos rapidly improving connections to the dynamic Chinese market,┬ and the cross-border proximity of well established rubber plantations in southern Yunnan, has encouraged the southern expansion of “borders of rubber“. […]
“From Dictatorship to Democracy”, Burma and all the rest
All right Jon. If you can’t fight them, join them. Make them doubly rich for good measure, why don’t you? Negotiate, that’s if they let you, and engage constructively as the non-Western states have been doing for the last whatever. Talk like Gambari and the rest of them before him like you talk to a brick wall. I’d love the West to lift the sanctions if only so you see for yourself how well that option works. Good luck.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
It’s happening.
James Bond on the Mekong
For a very non-James Bond view of Mekong river development see the recent announcement (and attached reports) on oneworld.net .
“From Dictatorship to Democracy”, Burma and all the rest
“Here we go again, Jon’s broken record, stuck in a rut, namely his reductionist version of economic determinism, never mind the choices the rulers make or deny, the priorities they set themselves for themselves. ”
To butt your head stubbornly against the wall for 20 years with the same failed strategy, the opposition strategy, is truly: a broken record, stuck in a rut.
Moe Aung you’re displaying the same true believer behavioural characteristics here that, for instance, puts Georgetown political scientist on a black list of enemies because he suggests alternatives, which is exactly his job as a political scientist.
“If Sharp serves the purpose, a means to an end, it certainly is a valuable asset. Both Sinn Fein and the Mahatma inspired the Burmese independence movement. All options should be considered.”
And the one most obvious option is to withdraw economic sanctions.
Sharp is just a minor variation on the last 20 years of going absolutely nowhere.
New Mandala’s Four Letter Words
I hope one of them will cover the Bangkok Governor Election.
It’s amazing that Chuwit can garner 20% of the vote (according to most polls)…. I believe they are the people just pissed off at the current state of politics as is.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
The web site idea has been sugested several times. It seems there was an attempt, the site I saw has poorly constructed, negelected and labeled as a false KNU/ KNLA site on other blogs and sites. I looked at the site several times over several months and decided it had been abandoned, left adrift in cyberspace because ther had been no changes or updates. I have not even looked for “it” or a new one in a year. Now is the time this idea should be revisited.
Information about village evictions in northern Thailand
There were a number of settlements in the higher forest areas of Kamphengphet in the late 1970s. These appear to have been facilitated by some section of the Thai armed forces, in an effort to conquer the forest (and thus preclude insurgent camps from the CPT). Mien and Hmong people were there well into the 1980s but were evicted or at least seriously harassed during the 1980s and at least until 1990. Villages were not “official” and it is hard sometimes to get village names. The reasons for eviction were a combination of the political (after CPT surrenders, there was no need for this human shield or whatever to call it), the geopolitical (a good number of the Mien at least were from Laos and had come over in 1973, people who arrived in 1973 were in many cases not accepted in refugee camps, “nothing was happening in Laos at the time”), ecological (you people are destroying trees with your farming methods), and border-work (some Hmong had shot at the Thai military, some people got killed, and road-work stalled. The settlement at the end of the road was known as Thang-Sut, those still further were considered in the forest — so, both extension of national control and an attempt to weed out people from Laos). The closest I have come to identifying villages is that many were considered part of Khlong-Lan, which is now a municipality (Khlong-Lan-Phatthana) and I think also the name of a district. So, somewhere around ten to twenty villages (for sure, perhaps a lot more), that had been officially accommodated and then through the 1980s were largely erased. Many of the inhabitants are in the US (as refugees). Evidence in the public domain: interview p.91 in Prasit Leepreecha, Yanyong Trakanthamrong, and Wisut Leksombun (2547) Mien: Lak-lai Chiwit Jak Khun-khao Su Muang. Chiangmai: Social Research Institute. That interview says there was a mass migration from all over Thailand to this area in 2524-25 (1981-82) when the gov’t coulde guarantee people’s safety after CPT surrenders, and evictions in ’27 (1984). From what I have learned, people started moving in much sooner, and it was officially encouraged.
PAD’s “General Uprising of 26 August 2008”
Eduardo, I know you are joking but a lot of the people in the north 1/2 of the country, who don’t speak out in public or march in protests, are not that far off what you are saying. We used to be a separate kingdom and it may not be that hard for a lot of the people to think that way again not a separate kingdom but a separate area with it’s own national government. It could be ideal, the separatists could have the deep south, The PAD could have Bangkok or whatever it is they want this week, run by their PAD appointed bureaucrats, friends, bankers and lawmakers and they could run it with their deranged ideas about democracy for the elite.
The rest of us up here in the north and northeast, you know the stupid, uneducated, vote bought poor farmers, the one person one vote group, want the good chunk of Siam back… LOL
Strong words from the ICG
More power to this six-point plan. The big question is: how can it be brought to reality?
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Hi Vin,
Just quickly for your information. The KNLA/KNU are made up of Christians and Buddhists. The bulk of Karen people are Buddhist/anamist, not Christian. This is a common mistake many people make and was used to great affect by the military junta in 1995 to enginner a split between a very small number of disgruntled KNLA troops and lable it as religious persecution on the part of the KNU/KNLA leadership. It worked to great affect and led to the abandoning of the KNU/KNLA stronghold at Manerplaw. This matter should be viewed as a Karen struggle for recognition and sustainability of their culture, language and education and social mobility within the Union of Burma. The stop to the present genocide that is taking place and a way forward for all the ethnic groups in Burma to progress towards peace, stability, economic self sustainability, freedom of religious choice and the opportunity for all citizens of Burma to be able to take in upward social and economic mobility under a true federal union that recognises all the citizens of the country. To reduce this conflict to a religious divide is to both enflame and perpetuate the ongoing troubles in the country.
Regards,
David Everett
The invention of tradition by decree
This is perhaps a little funny-sounding, but has become quite common in China, where the gov’t sanctions particular places as “authentic cultural village” and the like. Such a designation becomes a draw for (domestic and international) tourism, government spending, and the like, and reinforces the cliche of China and its 55 ethnic peoples (and there is of course competition among the communities which of them gets designated as authentic, ethnic, and cultural). You can juxtapose Thailand (that officially registers only Thai, the rest of them are kind of alien immigrants, regardless of what history they may have), Laos (with its three kinds of Lao-by-altitude), and Vietnam, that officially has 54 peoples who are all joined (rhetorically) in the struggle against foreign aggression) — the three countries are similar in many ways but come to very different national narratives about identity and culture. But this story from Laos in 2006 is interesting for focusing the headline on cultural villages and then going on to talk about the eonomic productivity of the place (real culture people are no slackers, they can weave x-many baskets in a day that is then multiplied by 180 and given a good dollar-figure). Was there any kind of follow-up in Laos, are places still culture villages? Was this along lines separate from the Lao-Sung, -Thoeng, -Lam?
Volunteering to fight in Burma
You’re in luck. The Karen National Union does have a website.
http://www.karen.org/knu/knu.htm
The Thai circus continues
I agree with you on most points. I have often said that if all the farmers got together and formed a strong organization or political party they would take over Thai politics and probably do a good job at government. Running a country is not much different than running a business or a farm. But alas, we all know that farmers aren’t allowed in government as most don’t have degrees.
To comment on the Samak issue. The court went way beyond, “Upholding the letter of the law, but ignoring the spirit of the law.” They went as far as inventing their own meaning for “Employment” and refused to use the definition as set down in Thai Organic Law. This is like the retroactive law that was used to dissolve the TRT. In Thailand it seems, if you are on the hit list, we will just invent laws and definitions that suit the case to get the outcome we want. That’s not called justice, that’s called injustice.
Beyond the stereotypes of Thailand’s “Reds”
Trough all the PAD rallies, the downfall of the Thaksin regime and the junta we talked and you always had concise and accurate information on the situation on the ground. Once again you have used your wide knowledge about thailand and the diverse factions that make up it’s society to relay this through your article.
None of us knows how this will end but I truly hope that the poor will not lose what they have managed to gain so far. It is important for a country to measure it’s wealth by the way they treat the poor and infirm. If PAD gets it’s way they will no doubt treat them badly and if that happens Thailand will be morally bankrupt for generations. Our kids, kids will still be trying to dig out of the hole created.
Well done my friend, take care…
Marty
Volunteering to fight in Burma
It would be good if the KNLA Christian HQ had a website to communicate directly with the world and state their position “from the horses’ mouth” so to speak. An interested observer would not have to pick through the personalities, back-biting, etc. to find the truth.
If one such website should be forthcoming please let me know. It is hard to know who to trust these days…
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
[…] nice to those “senior establishment figures” getting a mention. As we have argued on New Mandala, one senior establishment figure in particular has made no attempt to withdraw his […]
Examining the “success” of a northern Thai Royal Project
[…] Posted September 28, 2008 Filed under: Online/Magazine | Examining the “success” of a northern Thai Royal Project, New Mandala, September 5, […]