The rule of law is very weak in Thailand. There is a long history of selective application, and corruption of laws by cases won by powerful people which should have been lost. The most lucrative work for lawyers consists in corrupting the law on behalf of the rich and powerful (not only in Thailand!). Some laws are a mere by-products of power struggles. Laws made by the military dictatorship were crafted to punish and frustrate the people’s representatives. But it is the representatives alone who can make laws that have the best chance of being widely respected.
Because few take the laws seriously, almost all rich and powerful Thais have skeletons in their cupboards. If the laws were applied to all of them as they have been to Thaksin and his family, most of them would be in prison. Many of those calling for the laws, in their present state, to be enforced with rigour are humbugs. That includes every one of them who has supported both the sentence handed out to Thaksin’s wife, and the overthrow Constitution by the militarists in 2006.
Arming a mob is not the wisest of idea. In the end, when things get heated. No one with a bat in his hand would look to see if his opponent have an equal weapon and judge whether to use the bat. That’s why they call it a “mob”…
The logic of arming oneself against one opponent due to police inadequate protection is twist. Or else all mechanic student in Bangkok are justify to carry firearm and pipebomb.
The PAD could wear yellow, anti-PAD could wear red, and everyone else in between could wear shocking pink. But when yellow wearer call for overthrow of elect government, a sanction coup, and appoint senate… the color code is out of context.
The PAD goal at this stage is quite simple. They want a martyr…
Nganadeeleg’s point is well made.Though the severity of the sentence for Potjaman is a little surprising I can’t see there can be much dispute that this was not a fair trial or that a correct verdict was not reached.This does not mean that in a more general sense the court system is not being “directed” against Thaksin.
I am intrigued to see whether Jonathan is being influenced or perhaps cowed by the lese majeste charge made against him, the warning shot across the bow theory.So far no evidence of this judging by this last report but it must be an uneasy tightrope for him.
Sidh: You don’t really expect me to put a book-length treatment as a comment on New Mandala, do you? I didn’t paint the PAD as the bad guy. I raised a number of issues that seem to have been lost in this “discussion.”
Do I understand it correctly that “a complete Thai context” means that your views must be shared, and that those who don’t share them are either farang (automatically) or Thais who somehow lack the “completeness” of your priviledged Thai insight?
Just as a joking aside, your “complete Thai context” somehow reminds me of the “correct class standpoint” of times past.
Some comments by Chris Baker about the tax fraud case (as quoted in the papers):
“It’s very significant for both of them. Nobody doubts this was a family matter. It will reflect on all of them,” Bangkok-based analyst and Thaksin biographer Chris Baker said.
“The courts here are often intimidated by people in power or who were in power and they are reluctant to convict. In this case that doesn’t seem to be operating.”
“It will go on – they will use every possible means under the law, but their ability to use other methods to influence any decision now is highly limited,” he said.
“I don’t think we need to take the (corruption) cases as a team effort, I think each one will be decided on its merits, ” he said.
Mr Baker said it was a legal “milestone” for a Thai court to convict such a wealthy and powerful defendant as the former first lady. It is a precedent that Mr Thaksin will find deeply unsettling.
But when 750 of them attack 150 protestors, the only injured the PAD can roll out is one guy without an obvious wound that I can see, and a wheelchair that is an obvious prop.
Well, guess what, the ones who were critically injured are most likely still hospitalized and undergoing treatment (it’s only been about a week since the incident occurred), so naturally, the ones that are able to come out and who are no longer in shock and can give interviews would be the ones who suffered minor injuries.
Manning says: “The way it looks now, Thaksin would have no way whatever of winning a case in any of the Thai courts, because of the bias of the judiciary against him.”
Thaksin the high-stakes gambler had always been the do-or-die optimist. And Thaksin had not given up because surely the celestial stars, not helpful nor bright to the Shinawatra clan lately, would again twinkle to his favor again (some powerful new shaman will help soon!).
‘Judiciary bias’ would also not discourage Thaksin. In 2001 Thaksin overcome judiciary bias by one vote . . . so Thaksin must appreciate that whenever there’s a will, there always be a way out for him, in Thailand (more sandwiches to the judges perhaps?)
Srithanonchai, Observer & Manning: I suggest you need to revisit the comments and actions/inactions of people like Kwanchai Phraipana, Uthai Saenkaew & Chalerm Yoobamrung, to get a better understanding of why PAD feels it needs to defend itself.
Sidh says: “I welcome your comments/analysis on the case (and the long line of cases pending).”
Manning replies: “The verdicts are predetermined even before the judges sit down to pretend to deliberate on the cases”
Why not just analyze each case on it’s merits.
Manning, can you please outline what is the specific problem you have with the verdict in the Potjaman tax case?
PS. I moved my comment to this thread, as it is a little more relevant here than over at the “I’m ready to fight the Thai’s’ thread where the exchange between Sidh & Manning took place.
This raises an interesting question. How can newspapers like The Nation survive in times like these? I would say:
1. Outsource more to experts in academia whose job it is to know what is really going on, not professional pundits and skip the press release style journalism you usually find in business section…
2. Provide rich background information, can you read the paper for a year and really understand the economy and business in Thailand? If not they forget it.
3. Make it all interactive , user generated content, like New Mandala, just like the NY Times says on the gateway to their op-ed section, “All the news that’s fit to debate.”
4. 70%-80% of the content should be business and economic news for Thailand and Southeast Asia. Google News gives me the rest of the world. The value of a cut and paste job onto paper is minimal nowadays.
5. Keep it a lean, virtual news organization, outsource everything.
Far Eastern Economic Review failed but IMHO an intelligent informed, intellectual organisation, that provides real value and makes some money can be built, if you start from the ground up.
I posted the following at TJTS commenting further on Fonzi’s apparent glee at Nation Multimedia Group deepening financial morass:
“Fonzi apparently you could not add nor deduct properly. I looked into the same NMG financial statements you referred to, and, the arithmetic for NMG’s 2007 balance sheet comes out:
Total Assets – Baht 4,148 million
Total Liabilities – Baht 3,338 million
Thus Assets less Liablities gives us NMG Equity of Baht 810 million.
I am no accountant Fonzi but I can still add, and deduct, better than you!
But I agree w/ you Fonzi that NMG’s Balance Sheet situation is dire, desperate for sure. NMG’s equity had consistently been shrinking annually, from Baht 2,158 million in Y2004 to Baht 810 million by close of Y2007 – that’s a whopping LOSS to the shareholders of Baht 1.4 billion over a 3-year period! Jeez . . . NMG’s finances must be a nightmare!
I can only guess that Y-2008 for NMG must have been financially horrendous – – probaly zero equity, or as Fonzi suspects, capital deficiency.
So if readers can begin to detect some tremor of despair (panic even ha ha ha!) from Nation’s daily editorials . . . we can pin it on dire finances! Those Nation editors and reporters wages may already have been many months overdue . . .????
I remember the few years after the passing of the 1997 Constitution as a sort of societal threshold towards more liberalism – and this manifested in the quality news, documentaries and what looked like sound beginnings for investigative journalism in pre-Thaksin ITV (a result of the constitution). Unfortunately PMThaksin, like a typical business tycoon (and monopolistic at that) is capable of viewing the medias as only a marketing tool… I think that public space of the media, both TV and radio, as a medium for societal discourse must be bought back and nurtured. And I am certain this will eventually be transformative for education (and its delivery) when societal issues are opened up for debate.
I have proposed this before why can’t we have live TV programs that brings all stakeholders in the current conflict (like many aired by the ABC and SBS in Australia), TRT/PPP, UDD, PAD, the opposition, the military etc…etc… to discuss democracy, checks and balances, the rule of law, conflicts of interests, corruption, human rights etc. – and use the 1997 Constitution as the reference for what went wrong. I think that would be highly informative and educative at a societal level.
Contrary to Thaitaff and Khun Manning, I don’t think it is about the narrow Thai mentality (as this applies anywhere) – but rather because of a lack of facilited public forums for difference of opinions to be aired and debated.
A rationale argument, Srithanonchai #7 – can you also give us a rigorous analysis of the “Reds” or the UDD (or DADD – I’m not sure what they are called)?
Even better, start telling the whole story instead of half-truths. Let’s have the whole chain of events from the 1997 Constitution, then TRT abuses, then PAD protests, then 2006 coup, then UDD protests, then PPP abuses, then PAD protests, then UDD attacks…
If you want to paint PAD as the “bad guy”, then let’s put it into a complete Thai context. An isolated exercise that you wrote tells us nothing more than a very personal bias…
Lleij Samuel Schwartz: “…as I have continued my research into contrastive sociopedagogy, I have become increasingly convinced that the term “critical thinking,” as commonly used, is actually a culturally-specific term that is laden with cultural beliefs and value judgements.”
Completely agree, Thailand provides an opportunity to think outside the box of so-called “critical thinking.”
So-called “critical thinking” skills can be applied in a practical small business context, for instance, formulating a winning business plan for a small magazine or a bakery. More opportunities and unoccupied niches for small businesses here. I designed a project-based curriculum for second year business English students at a university and is the focus for our little website at the Bangkok Post:
Not exactly studying Plato or Socrates, but some hard thinking and detailed research (marketing surveys, focus groups, surveys of the existing competition) can lead to some insights about the human context and business opportunities that surround you.
European style vocational training seems to be much more in a critical thinking vein. One of my neighbors in Maesai was trained as a baker in the Netherlands and now travels around Asia selling ready mixed bread dough material and has also experimented with a lot of little bakery projects including hamburger buns to local hotels and restaurants. Somewhere along the way he added MBA skills to the vocational skills that he began with, all by himself. More provision needs to be made for this sort of self-education like what the Thailand Creative and Design Center on the top of the Emporium tries to do for design.
It’s a good thing Thailand has a thriving private educational sector with international schools and universities. The public educational sector tends to be a little moribund and inflexible. Instead of following the well-charted best practices of other Asian countries such as Korea and Japan, new draconian regulations suddenly pop out from nowhere (actually the interim NLA). Andrew Walker was waxing how his PhD was the ultimate educational credential, well he would not qualify to be an English teacher in Thailand now, for which you need specifically a bachelors degree in education, no more, not less, even in a university, altough regulations like have a tendency to be ignored.
Srithanonchai: He has a point – without the PAD protests in 2006, Thaksin would still be in power, and very likely those court cases would never have got anywhere.
Hopefully this is just a start, and in future no one will be above the law, whichever side of politics or connections they have.
btw, They should also be going after the tax revenue officials who rubber stamped all the shady deals.
“This legal “milestone” (in Baker’s words) for Thai courts was achieved in large part due to pressure by the PAD protesters.” >> What? Are you serious?
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The king, the courts and the former PM
The rule of law is very weak in Thailand. There is a long history of selective application, and corruption of laws by cases won by powerful people which should have been lost. The most lucrative work for lawyers consists in corrupting the law on behalf of the rich and powerful (not only in Thailand!). Some laws are a mere by-products of power struggles. Laws made by the military dictatorship were crafted to punish and frustrate the people’s representatives. But it is the representatives alone who can make laws that have the best chance of being widely respected.
Because few take the laws seriously, almost all rich and powerful Thais have skeletons in their cupboards. If the laws were applied to all of them as they have been to Thaksin and his family, most of them would be in prison. Many of those calling for the laws, in their present state, to be enforced with rigour are humbugs. That includes every one of them who has supported both the sentence handed out to Thaksin’s wife, and the overthrow Constitution by the militarists in 2006.
PAD – ready for violence
Arming a mob is not the wisest of idea. In the end, when things get heated. No one with a bat in his hand would look to see if his opponent have an equal weapon and judge whether to use the bat. That’s why they call it a “mob”…
The logic of arming oneself against one opponent due to police inadequate protection is twist. Or else all mechanic student in Bangkok are justify to carry firearm and pipebomb.
The PAD could wear yellow, anti-PAD could wear red, and everyone else in between could wear shocking pink. But when yellow wearer call for overthrow of elect government, a sanction coup, and appoint senate… the color code is out of context.
The PAD goal at this stage is quite simple. They want a martyr…
The king, the courts and the former PM
Nganadeeleg’s point is well made.Though the severity of the sentence for Potjaman is a little surprising I can’t see there can be much dispute that this was not a fair trial or that a correct verdict was not reached.This does not mean that in a more general sense the court system is not being “directed” against Thaksin.
I am intrigued to see whether Jonathan is being influenced or perhaps cowed by the lese majeste charge made against him, the warning shot across the bow theory.So far no evidence of this judging by this last report but it must be an uneasy tightrope for him.
“Let the electorate judge”
Nganadeeleg: Oh, sorry, I thought his reference was more short-term.
PAD – ready for violence
Sidh: You don’t really expect me to put a book-length treatment as a comment on New Mandala, do you? I didn’t paint the PAD as the bad guy. I raised a number of issues that seem to have been lost in this “discussion.”
Do I understand it correctly that “a complete Thai context” means that your views must be shared, and that those who don’t share them are either farang (automatically) or Thais who somehow lack the “completeness” of your priviledged Thai insight?
Just as a joking aside, your “complete Thai context” somehow reminds me of the “correct class standpoint” of times past.
The king, the courts and the former PM
Some comments by Chris Baker about the tax fraud case (as quoted in the papers):
“It’s very significant for both of them. Nobody doubts this was a family matter. It will reflect on all of them,” Bangkok-based analyst and Thaksin biographer Chris Baker said.
“The courts here are often intimidated by people in power or who were in power and they are reluctant to convict. In this case that doesn’t seem to be operating.”
“It will go on – they will use every possible means under the law, but their ability to use other methods to influence any decision now is highly limited,” he said.
“I don’t think we need to take the (corruption) cases as a team effort, I think each one will be decided on its merits, ” he said.
Mr Baker said it was a legal “milestone” for a Thai court to convict such a wealthy and powerful defendant as the former first lady. It is a precedent that Mr Thaksin will find deeply unsettling.
The king, the courts and the former PM
“All his [Thaksin’s] cases are predetermined and doomed.”
This response to the rulings is “predetermined.”
He got away with it before. Now he doesn’t.
Another way of looking at it.
PAD – ready for violence
Re #9
But when 750 of them attack 150 protestors, the only injured the PAD can roll out is one guy without an obvious wound that I can see, and a wheelchair that is an obvious prop.
Well, guess what, the ones who were critically injured are most likely still hospitalized and undergoing treatment (it’s only been about a week since the incident occurred), so naturally, the ones that are able to come out and who are no longer in shock and can give interviews would be the ones who suffered minor injuries.
The king, the courts and the former PM
Manning says: “The way it looks now, Thaksin would have no way whatever of winning a case in any of the Thai courts, because of the bias of the judiciary against him.”
Thaksin the high-stakes gambler had always been the do-or-die optimist. And Thaksin had not given up because surely the celestial stars, not helpful nor bright to the Shinawatra clan lately, would again twinkle to his favor again (some powerful new shaman will help soon!).
‘Judiciary bias’ would also not discourage Thaksin. In 2001 Thaksin overcome judiciary bias by one vote . . . so Thaksin must appreciate that whenever there’s a will, there always be a way out for him, in Thailand (more sandwiches to the judges perhaps?)
Former Australian Ambassador engages Burma
Get the generals out, then you can move forward as quickly as you would like. Otherwise you only line thier pockets.
PAD – ready for violence
Srithanonchai, Observer & Manning: I suggest you need to revisit the comments and actions/inactions of people like Kwanchai Phraipana, Uthai Saenkaew & Chalerm Yoobamrung, to get a better understanding of why PAD feels it needs to defend itself.
The king, the courts and the former PM
Sidh says: “I welcome your comments/analysis on the case (and the long line of cases pending).”
Manning replies: “The verdicts are predetermined even before the judges sit down to pretend to deliberate on the cases”
Why not just analyze each case on it’s merits.
Manning, can you please outline what is the specific problem you have with the verdict in the Potjaman tax case?
PS. I moved my comment to this thread, as it is a little more relevant here than over at the “I’m ready to fight the Thai’s’ thread where the exchange between Sidh & Manning took place.
The demise of The Nation?
“The Nation is reportedly in dire condition. ”
This raises an interesting question. How can newspapers like The Nation survive in times like these? I would say:
1. Outsource more to experts in academia whose job it is to know what is really going on, not professional pundits and skip the press release style journalism you usually find in business section…
2. Provide rich background information, can you read the paper for a year and really understand the economy and business in Thailand? If not they forget it.
3. Make it all interactive , user generated content, like New Mandala, just like the NY Times says on the gateway to their op-ed section, “All the news that’s fit to debate.”
4. 70%-80% of the content should be business and economic news for Thailand and Southeast Asia. Google News gives me the rest of the world. The value of a cut and paste job onto paper is minimal nowadays.
5. Keep it a lean, virtual news organization, outsource everything.
Far Eastern Economic Review failed but IMHO an intelligent informed, intellectual organisation, that provides real value and makes some money can be built, if you start from the ground up.
The demise of The Nation?
I posted the following at TJTS commenting further on Fonzi’s apparent glee at Nation Multimedia Group deepening financial morass:
“Fonzi apparently you could not add nor deduct properly. I looked into the same NMG financial statements you referred to, and, the arithmetic for NMG’s 2007 balance sheet comes out:
Total Assets – Baht 4,148 million
Total Liabilities – Baht 3,338 million
Thus Assets less Liablities gives us NMG Equity of Baht 810 million.
I am no accountant Fonzi but I can still add, and deduct, better than you!
But I agree w/ you Fonzi that NMG’s Balance Sheet situation is dire, desperate for sure. NMG’s equity had consistently been shrinking annually, from Baht 2,158 million in Y2004 to Baht 810 million by close of Y2007 – that’s a whopping LOSS to the shareholders of Baht 1.4 billion over a 3-year period! Jeez . . . NMG’s finances must be a nightmare!
I can only guess that Y-2008 for NMG must have been financially horrendous – – probaly zero equity, or as Fonzi suspects, capital deficiency.
So if readers can begin to detect some tremor of despair (panic even ha ha ha!) from Nation’s daily editorials . . . we can pin it on dire finances! Those Nation editors and reporters wages may already have been many months overdue . . .????
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
I remember the few years after the passing of the 1997 Constitution as a sort of societal threshold towards more liberalism – and this manifested in the quality news, documentaries and what looked like sound beginnings for investigative journalism in pre-Thaksin ITV (a result of the constitution). Unfortunately PMThaksin, like a typical business tycoon (and monopolistic at that) is capable of viewing the medias as only a marketing tool… I think that public space of the media, both TV and radio, as a medium for societal discourse must be bought back and nurtured. And I am certain this will eventually be transformative for education (and its delivery) when societal issues are opened up for debate.
I have proposed this before why can’t we have live TV programs that brings all stakeholders in the current conflict (like many aired by the ABC and SBS in Australia), TRT/PPP, UDD, PAD, the opposition, the military etc…etc… to discuss democracy, checks and balances, the rule of law, conflicts of interests, corruption, human rights etc. – and use the 1997 Constitution as the reference for what went wrong. I think that would be highly informative and educative at a societal level.
Contrary to Thaitaff and Khun Manning, I don’t think it is about the narrow Thai mentality (as this applies anywhere) – but rather because of a lack of facilited public forums for difference of opinions to be aired and debated.
“Let the electorate judge”
karma blues #42, the telegraph got the sums wrong. It’s not “┬г1.1m worth of shares”, it’s ┬г11 million.
PAD – ready for violence
A rationale argument, Srithanonchai #7 – can you also give us a rigorous analysis of the “Reds” or the UDD (or DADD – I’m not sure what they are called)?
Even better, start telling the whole story instead of half-truths. Let’s have the whole chain of events from the 1997 Constitution, then TRT abuses, then PAD protests, then 2006 coup, then UDD protests, then PPP abuses, then PAD protests, then UDD attacks…
If you want to paint PAD as the “bad guy”, then let’s put it into a complete Thai context. An isolated exercise that you wrote tells us nothing more than a very personal bias…
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Lleij Samuel Schwartz: “…as I have continued my research into contrastive sociopedagogy, I have become increasingly convinced that the term “critical thinking,” as commonly used, is actually a culturally-specific term that is laden with cultural beliefs and value judgements.”
Completely agree, Thailand provides an opportunity to think outside the box of so-called “critical thinking.”
So-called “critical thinking” skills can be applied in a practical small business context, for instance, formulating a winning business plan for a small magazine or a bakery. More opportunities and unoccupied niches for small businesses here. I designed a project-based curriculum for second year business English students at a university and is the focus for our little website at the Bangkok Post:
http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/entrepreneurs_and_business_plans/
Not exactly studying Plato or Socrates, but some hard thinking and detailed research (marketing surveys, focus groups, surveys of the existing competition) can lead to some insights about the human context and business opportunities that surround you.
European style vocational training seems to be much more in a critical thinking vein. One of my neighbors in Maesai was trained as a baker in the Netherlands and now travels around Asia selling ready mixed bread dough material and has also experimented with a lot of little bakery projects including hamburger buns to local hotels and restaurants. Somewhere along the way he added MBA skills to the vocational skills that he began with, all by himself. More provision needs to be made for this sort of self-education like what the Thailand Creative and Design Center on the top of the Emporium tries to do for design.
It’s a good thing Thailand has a thriving private educational sector with international schools and universities. The public educational sector tends to be a little moribund and inflexible. Instead of following the well-charted best practices of other Asian countries such as Korea and Japan, new draconian regulations suddenly pop out from nowhere (actually the interim NLA). Andrew Walker was waxing how his PhD was the ultimate educational credential, well he would not qualify to be an English teacher in Thailand now, for which you need specifically a bachelors degree in education, no more, not less, even in a university, altough regulations like have a tendency to be ignored.
“Let the electorate judge”
Srithanonchai: He has a point – without the PAD protests in 2006, Thaksin would still be in power, and very likely those court cases would never have got anywhere.
Hopefully this is just a start, and in future no one will be above the law, whichever side of politics or connections they have.
btw, They should also be going after the tax revenue officials who rubber stamped all the shady deals.
“Let the electorate judge”
“This legal “milestone” (in Baker’s words) for Thai courts was achieved in large part due to pressure by the PAD protesters.” >> What? Are you serious?