PAD got a great boost yesterday with the jailing of Thaksin lawyers. I don’t have any capacity to comment on the court’s ruling, but it does seem remarkable that whenever PAD seems to reaching a bid of a dead end, the courts, the military or the palace revive them.
It does seem remarkable that Thaksin would hand his opponents this opportunity.
Good story in the Bangkok Post today about how Saprang gave PAD a coup role back in 2006.
Sidh: Why just Thaksin? There are any number of cases that could be taken up. Sure, get Thaksin in a transparent process, but get others as well.
Maybe those responsible for political murder in various horrible events (1973, 1976, the war on drugs, etc.). Maybe former ISOC man Panlop (who admits to murder and had a major role at Kru Ze and is now a PADite).
But as nganadeeleg points out, the courts are not exactly squeaky clean and haven’t been for a long time (and the 2006 coup group added considerably to this). And, the connections between all the nodes of the elite are so extensive that the big cases often fall by the wayside because they threaten to bring down too many others.
Dear,
I hope that AusAid will reconsider again the scholarship for burmses citizens who are struggling for development of health and livelihood sector in the country.Otherwise prospect of country development will be delayed again and again.During these periods,due to the NArgis Cyclone,impact on the human resources and national development again.
Pundit: Aren’t some of those republican types in the sorng mai aow camp too?
Perhaps I’ve been reading too much into Republicans support of Thaksin & his derision of the song mai ow position.
Anyway, he’s not the only Thaksin supporter on this site, nor is he the only one here who is against the song mai ow position.
Actually, I’m a little surprised he has not resurfaced here, unless he has taken a new persona and toned things down a little.
(maybe he’s busy watching re-runs of ‘on the buses’, or tending to his dogs?)
Don, I agree singleminded separationist goals are harmful at this juncture and should be put on hold while everyone needs to team up, and here I endorse Jack Slade’s view, so that the common enemy can be rid of once and for all.
Jack, I don’t see you as a mercenary but would you be helping Burman groups in the area such as the student army, ABSDF? Selectivity by white knights and saviours is bound to be seen as divisive and encouraging separatist ambitions by the majority Burmans not just the junta although I can understand your natural inclination towards the Karen; they are very nice, friendly, hospitable and gentle people after all.
Unfortunately the Karen on their part are so beholden to the white christian nations despite being let down so many times, it’s sad to see them still aspiring to become the 51st state of the US. Even the British don’t suffer from this malady half as bad. I’m sure it also reflects on the way the Karen, or for that matter everyone else, have been treated by the Burman ruling elite so far.
Genuine national reconciliation can only become a reality when, not if, the junta is toppled because they are the embodiment of Burman militarism and chauvinism.
Don- You are right….The KNLA and other ethnic groups will have to fight to free themselves. They need to unite and defeat the SPDC on several fronts at the same time.
However, You are wrong on one thing. You referred to me as a “soldier of fortune” which implies I am in this fight for the money. In essence you called me a mercenary, this is not the case. I have spent more money out of my own pocket than you will ever give to the Karen poeple. And as an “unemployed former marine” you can only guess at the level of determination that must have taken. I am not unemployed. The I spend every day trying to get food and aid to the people of Burma. I wake at 7 am and go to bed around 3am the next morning because I am trying to make a difference in the lives of my friends on the other side of the planet.
Show me how dedicated you are. Stop talking and start doing. Action speaks louder than words.
You are a smart man as I can tell by your postings. Start putting that intelligence to work in productive ways that benefit the people dodging bullets in Burma.
I am not a “Rambo wanna be” nor I have delusions of grandure or self promotion. As I see it you are correct on several points in your postings, this shows that you follow events and think about things on a regular basis. Start posting what should be done and not what others failed at when they at least made an attempt to create change.
Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
The only sure way to fail is to never TRY at all.
I am trying every day to come up with funds to get Food, medical supplies, Doctors, aid, industry, teachers, and trainers into the country. If you are doing this, then GREAT. If not then you should close you lips and get busy TRYING.
Because while you run your mouth my friends are DYEING. Sorry if I sound a little angry, I am not angry, only a little frustrated that so many people seem content to spend hours ripping others to shreads and down playing their efforts with out any real knowlege of that persons efforts or lifting a finger of their own to help.
As I have said in other postings…. We all need to work together for a regime change. That can not be done by political means alone.
Bow down to the tiger and he will attack you. Stand UP and fight and you will at least have a change at life.
I fully support demonstrations and everything the monks did. However, how many monks must die before some other country gets involved and puts its boot up the generals behinds? If there was demonstrations in Rangoon, coordinated attacks by ethnic groups in all areas, and all SPDC trucks and resupply stopped, all at once and these actions continued for 3 days the SPDC will stretched too thinly and they will fall. This will not happen, ever, unless people stop talking and start doing. Team work is the only thing that will put the SPDC down. After they are gone we can talk ourselves into old age.
Don- Do not think I am attacking you. I just get a little frustrated when people call me a mercenary and a soldier of fortune. It just shows me that you have no idea who I am or what I stand for.
I support freedom, self determination, and respect for your fellow humans. I stand up and fight to protect the innocent, because if I tolerate the actions of the SPDC in Burma, that means I would let it happen here in my own country.
Reg Varney, I have proposed that one of the best way to get to some semblance to a rule of law for the country is to have all alleged corruption cases against PMThaksin, Thailand’s most powerful man – in terms of both wealth and political capital, be transparently tried in court.
A reason for PAD’s latest round of civic-assertiveness on Bangkok’s streets is PPP’s proposed constitution amendment that will, amongst other things, white-wash PMThaksin’s cases. If PMThaksin feels ‘100% innocent’ as he claims, then let the cases be tried in court without fear or favour and political and other interferences. Apart from PPP’s constitution amendments, the latest actions by his team of lawyers, if true, seems to further confirm my previous points that there are solid evidences to convict PMThaksin and family…
I am a bit skeptical myself that one of the world’s smartest man like PMThaksin can fall on such crude bribe cases. Is this a man desperate and cornered? Is this also related to his appearance at GenAnupong’s Mother’s funeral to intentionally meet PMPrem and PMSurayud? Is this also because PMSamak is too independent and out of control???
Is he running out of money and needs the unfrozen of the billions in assets to contine the battle (to fund another election campaign?)? Can the courts be bribed with billions instead of two million? Is the money needed to buy Ronaldinho for ManCity? Is it needed for a big investment on Kong Island in Cambodia, said to be behind the smooth agreement between the Thai and Cambodian government concerning Khao PraVihear?
Sorry, it’s just my curiousities (and wild speculations, admittedly) – and maybe Thailand’s immediate political future hangs in a few of these questions…
Thanks jonfernquest for your remarkable response. How you tie yourself in knots.
If you are following the PAD stuff you’d know that they have long claimed that electoral mandates don’t matter if “the people” are enraged or unhappy in some way. So I am not nitpicking. I was simply assuming that you did not equate elections and democracy (so why accuse me of that sin?).
I must be assessing your position correctly – despite its rather confused argument – for if you did equate elections with democracy, then you would want to have TRT/PPP in place as the elected government. Instead, the gist of your argument about Mussolini is that elections and/or democracy don’t work. Scrap the lot. That’s even more radical than Suriyasai!
My knowledge of Italian politics is rather patchy. However I do know that Mussolini was elected in 1921 but that the Fascists came to power by way of the March on Rome, essentially a coup. As Wikipedia has it: “The March on Rome was a coup d’état by which Mussolini’s National Fascist Party came to power in Italy and ousted Prime Minister Luigi Facta. The ‘march’ took place in 1922 between October 27 and October 29. On October 28, King Victor Emmanuel III refused his support to Facta and handed over power to Mussolini. Mussolini was supported by the military, the business class, and the liberal right-wing.” Sound familiar.
I have read the recent Pasuk and Baker book (and all of their others) and found it fascinating. I am currently reading Ockey’s book which has an argument that political participation (not sure if you’d see that as equated with democracy) is intrinsic to Thai political structures, especially at the village level, and that this politics has been suppressed by the elite. Interesting reading.
I have no comment on the part of the debate you mention as I didn’t see it, but I have no problem agreeing that corrupt politicians /former politicians shouldn’t be protected from a transparent legal process.
What about the chimps you converse with? Any word from them on these weighty matters?
I agree Andrew and the electorate will get to decide if there’s no coup and bloodshed – but we also have to give credit where credit is due. HOW DID WE GET TO THIS CENSURE DEBATE?
If the ultra-assertive PAD weren’t protesting/pressuring, on the whole, peacefully – it is highly likely that PPP, like TRT before it, will do anything to avoid and/or disrupt censure debates (remember PMThaksin’s Liverpool buying saga blanketing all media reporting of a censure debate???). You know as well as I do that “democracy” does not end at the ballot box. A working democracy has functioning, effective and transparent checks and balances. I am sure you and I have watched ‘Question Time’ on ABC occasionally – or ABC newsmen/women putting the hard questions to prime ministers and ministers of the day on TV. Do you see that kind of accountability in TRT/PPP? Has PMThaksin or PMSamak really faced that kind of grilling by the Opposition/media that is allowed to properly function? If you endorse ‘Mercedes-Benz S-Class’ quality democracy for Australia, then I expect you to maintain the same standard for Thailand (unless you also endorse PMThaksin’s “double standards”) – and not an outdated ‘Ford Model T’ democracy you seem to be prescribing. It seems quite disingenous otherwise.
If you do not accept a Labour government backbencher threatening a pub-worker with “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?” line, then your blogs should also be calling for Chalerm’s resignation right away… Stop throwing the words democracy, election, checks-and-balances, accountability around so lightly. Start demanding accountability and transparency of Thai politicians as you would Australians. Demand, in your blogs, that the poor Thais, urban and rural alike, get a democracy worth defending too.
nganadeeleg: Aren’t some of those republican types in the sorng mai aow camp too? I don’t see the PAD bringing up Republican’s posts at NM or those of republican sympathisers in the various webboards/blogs. From my reading of the various webboards, they are quite diverse. They are strongly against the coup, but doesn’t mean they are for Thaksin.
People like Samak should be unelectable (especially after his Burma, Tak Bai & 1976 comments).
I know, Samak is not the only one who has a smell around him, but please ask yourself: Is that as good as it gets?
“Some people” who supported the bloody Sarit regime, and acted (not just “comments”) on October 6, 1976 should not have been in high position, etc., but should have been put on trial and suffered long jail terms.
Any one who can “smell” only Samak must have severe nasal disorder. In fact the person should have his brain checked.
Reg (on the buses?) Varney: When the military was in power they managed the courts in a way that leaves many seeing them as compromised.
Which military in power are you referring to?
Presumably not the 2006 coup mob, because the compromise was on well before they came to power.
It is a circus
I will agree with you on that point.
btw, did you read today’s editorial in the Bangkok Post about Preah Vihear?
Do you accept they made some reasonable points about the issue, or do you just put it down to them being in campaign mode?
The only hope is for Thailand to become a new state or a protectorate of the United States and to let Americans run the country. In one generation those existing crooked politicians of all parties will disappear so that Thailand can start fresh. If you don’t like this, what alternative have you got? I see none viable.
I think the Nation is wrong and is just in campaign mode (as is the Bangkok POst at present, and looking increasingly like the rabid Nation). Thai Rath has given pretty good coverage of things like Preah Viharan (and their circulation dwarfs Nation). The debates have been on TV.
nganadeeleg: Hopefully Samak is not the best available. However, his comments on these things do not necessarily make him unelectable any more than Aphisit’s untruths and rabid nationalism make him unelectable.
Leaving aside that the electorate has now voted for TRT/PPP to be the government 3 (or 4) times, we need to acknowledge that a whole swathe of potentially good politicians have been neutered by the banning of TRT (and I don’t mean the whole 111).
Related to your other post (on the Peoples Alliance Against Democracy), for the legal system to work properly it needs to be reformed. How is that going to happen? When the military was in power they managed the courts in a way that leaves many seeing them as compromised. The vicious circle needs to be broken somewhere, and my bet would be that that will only happen under an elected government that has a decent opposition in place, keeping tabs on it, raising scandalous issues etc.
What we have now is a long way from that. It is a (crappy) government unable to operate because of continual opposition from those who never accepted the election result. In parliament the Democrats are just PADised in their debate. Where are the Dems showing any independence and capacity? It is a circus.
Years ago, during the Nigerian civil war, a German mercenary by name of Rolf Steiner was hired by the Biafrian secessionists.
Steiner had been in the Hitler Youth, and had joined the French Foreign Legion after the war. He came to Biafra by word of mouth, part of a fifty man contingent.
When they realized that they might get killed, all the mercenaries but Steiner returned home.
At some point, Steiner was given his own battalion to command, mostly boy soldiers. He cut a dashing figure, and with his past history, he was a darling of the many foreign journalists covering the war. They never tired of writing about him.
Unfortunately, Steiner began to believe all the bullshit that the correspondents were churning out. He decided that being famous was better than being obscure.
He consented to one interview after another, sometimes even seeking out the reporters.
He portrayed himself as a hard bitten mercenary, graduate of the Foreign Legion, veteran of Dien Bien Phu and Algiers.
At one point he even wore an iron cross, to which he wasn’t entitled, being only 14-15 years old when WWII ended. But who’s checking when there’s a story to be written?
Eventually Steiner was kicked out of Biafra, allegedly for insulting the president to his face.
He made his way to the Sudan, to lead the rebels there in glorious battle against the government.
He was captured, tortured, gang raped and then sentenced to 30 years in prison.
After a few years, he was released. He died several years ago in South Africa, penniless and alone, buried in a paupers grave.
Our next candidate is Pauly Shore, the B grade comedian and actor.
Like most actors, Shore craves publicity. He NEEDS to see his name in print. Publicity is his life blood.
After several movies that bombed, his star was fading fast. People didn’t even recognize him on the street, much less ask for his autograph. What to do? What to do?
Shore used his connections to place his own obituary in the local paper. It was intended to create buzz.
He wanted people to start talking about him again. And of course, there was the added benefit of reading the many accolades he was sure were coming.
Most stories that appeared about him had words like “B grade actor”, “has been”, “failure”, and “jerk” somewhere in them.
Hmmm. This wasn’t quite working out.
Well, at some point it became known not only that he was still alive, but that he was the author of the obituary. Not good. Not good at all.
See him in the movies or television much these days? Didn’t think so. People in Hollywood are like people everywhere else – they don’t like being taken in and made fools of.
Reg Varney: “Where was the word “democracy” used? I do see the word election…”
O no, now you’re nitpicking with words, does “election” mean “democracy” ?
Well, Reg, I’ll let you think about that, take the whole day, if you want…
Meanwhile, in the real world, last night, the minute Korn (a securities industry expert) brought up dismissal of the DSI person handling the Thaksin asssets concealment case, PPP starting running massive interference trying to delay the whole thing to the TV cutoff time, so no one could see it, wonder who they are working for?
Let the electorate decide, let the electorate decide,…the electorate is only part of the constitution, there are also laws, the judiciary, the SEC, all of which have been systematically thwarted and underminded…
Instead of wasting a whole day trying to decide whether “election” means “democracy” I’d go read the article on the telecommunications industry in Pasuk and Baker’s recent Thai Capital volume, try using your time more productively…
And then while you’re at, just to introduce a nice healthy note of skepticism on that oft repeated phrase, “let the electorate decide,” read a nice biography of Mussolini, a democratically elected king displacer, who concentrated all power in his own person, who even had his own gang of loyalists named the black shirts (the opposite of yellow shirts) running around Italy, not unlike the extrajudicial use of power favoured by Thaksin…
Great, thanks. Got it now. Fabulous stuff. Good to see that the meaning of “Thai-style democracy” has changed only ever so little since Sarit’s time. The transformation of opportunistic social movements (if that term applies to CPD) through their collaboration with royalists and other conservatives has been remarkable.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
PAD got a great boost yesterday with the jailing of Thaksin lawyers. I don’t have any capacity to comment on the court’s ruling, but it does seem remarkable that whenever PAD seems to reaching a bid of a dead end, the courts, the military or the palace revive them.
It does seem remarkable that Thaksin would hand his opponents this opportunity.
Good story in the Bangkok Post today about how Saprang gave PAD a coup role back in 2006.
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
Sidh: Why just Thaksin? There are any number of cases that could be taken up. Sure, get Thaksin in a transparent process, but get others as well.
Maybe those responsible for political murder in various horrible events (1973, 1976, the war on drugs, etc.). Maybe former ISOC man Panlop (who admits to murder and had a major role at Kru Ze and is now a PADite).
But as nganadeeleg points out, the courts are not exactly squeaky clean and haven’t been for a long time (and the 2006 coup group added considerably to this). And, the connections between all the nodes of the elite are so extensive that the big cases often fall by the wayside because they threaten to bring down too many others.
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
nganadeeleg: Yep, saw the BP editorial. Liked the Sanitsuda piece much better.
Time for AusAID to rethink Burma
Dear,
I hope that AusAid will reconsider again the scholarship for burmses citizens who are struggling for development of health and livelihood sector in the country.Otherwise prospect of country development will be delayed again and again.During these periods,due to the NArgis Cyclone,impact on the human resources and national development again.
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
Pundit: Aren’t some of those republican types in the sorng mai aow camp too?
Perhaps I’ve been reading too much into Republicans support of Thaksin & his derision of the song mai ow position.
Anyway, he’s not the only Thaksin supporter on this site, nor is he the only one here who is against the song mai ow position.
Actually, I’m a little surprised he has not resurfaced here, unless he has taken a new persona and toned things down a little.
(maybe he’s busy watching re-runs of ‘on the buses’, or tending to his dogs?)
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
The King Never Smiles online!
I had not been aware of this URL before:
http://books.google.co.th/books?id=d75WYMdp8-0C&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=yut+saenguthai&source=web&ots=AIn02RCmUz&sig=tNcLjdp8IpVNHXK0o8_HlxZ5t5w&hl=th&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP16,M1
FGA
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
Somsak J: “Any one who can “smell” only Samak must have severe nasal disorder. In fact the person should have his brain checked”
I said: “I know, Samak is not the only one who has a smell around him, but please ask yourself: Is that as good as it gets?”
Just clarifying that my nose is in order.
JSEAS special issue on Burma is out now
Don, I agree singleminded separationist goals are harmful at this juncture and should be put on hold while everyone needs to team up, and here I endorse Jack Slade’s view, so that the common enemy can be rid of once and for all.
Jack, I don’t see you as a mercenary but would you be helping Burman groups in the area such as the student army, ABSDF? Selectivity by white knights and saviours is bound to be seen as divisive and encouraging separatist ambitions by the majority Burmans not just the junta although I can understand your natural inclination towards the Karen; they are very nice, friendly, hospitable and gentle people after all.
Unfortunately the Karen on their part are so beholden to the white christian nations despite being let down so many times, it’s sad to see them still aspiring to become the 51st state of the US. Even the British don’t suffer from this malady half as bad. I’m sure it also reflects on the way the Karen, or for that matter everyone else, have been treated by the Burman ruling elite so far.
Genuine national reconciliation can only become a reality when, not if, the junta is toppled because they are the embodiment of Burman militarism and chauvinism.
JSEAS special issue on Burma is out now
Don- You are right….The KNLA and other ethnic groups will have to fight to free themselves. They need to unite and defeat the SPDC on several fronts at the same time.
However, You are wrong on one thing. You referred to me as a “soldier of fortune” which implies I am in this fight for the money. In essence you called me a mercenary, this is not the case. I have spent more money out of my own pocket than you will ever give to the Karen poeple. And as an “unemployed former marine” you can only guess at the level of determination that must have taken. I am not unemployed. The I spend every day trying to get food and aid to the people of Burma. I wake at 7 am and go to bed around 3am the next morning because I am trying to make a difference in the lives of my friends on the other side of the planet.
Show me how dedicated you are. Stop talking and start doing. Action speaks louder than words.
You are a smart man as I can tell by your postings. Start putting that intelligence to work in productive ways that benefit the people dodging bullets in Burma.
I am not a “Rambo wanna be” nor I have delusions of grandure or self promotion. As I see it you are correct on several points in your postings, this shows that you follow events and think about things on a regular basis. Start posting what should be done and not what others failed at when they at least made an attempt to create change.
Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
The only sure way to fail is to never TRY at all.
I am trying every day to come up with funds to get Food, medical supplies, Doctors, aid, industry, teachers, and trainers into the country. If you are doing this, then GREAT. If not then you should close you lips and get busy TRYING.
Because while you run your mouth my friends are DYEING. Sorry if I sound a little angry, I am not angry, only a little frustrated that so many people seem content to spend hours ripping others to shreads and down playing their efforts with out any real knowlege of that persons efforts or lifting a finger of their own to help.
As I have said in other postings…. We all need to work together for a regime change. That can not be done by political means alone.
Bow down to the tiger and he will attack you. Stand UP and fight and you will at least have a change at life.
I fully support demonstrations and everything the monks did. However, how many monks must die before some other country gets involved and puts its boot up the generals behinds? If there was demonstrations in Rangoon, coordinated attacks by ethnic groups in all areas, and all SPDC trucks and resupply stopped, all at once and these actions continued for 3 days the SPDC will stretched too thinly and they will fall. This will not happen, ever, unless people stop talking and start doing. Team work is the only thing that will put the SPDC down. After they are gone we can talk ourselves into old age.
Don- Do not think I am attacking you. I just get a little frustrated when people call me a mercenary and a soldier of fortune. It just shows me that you have no idea who I am or what I stand for.
I support freedom, self determination, and respect for your fellow humans. I stand up and fight to protect the innocent, because if I tolerate the actions of the SPDC in Burma, that means I would let it happen here in my own country.
Do something…. Jack out.
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
Reg Varney, I have proposed that one of the best way to get to some semblance to a rule of law for the country is to have all alleged corruption cases against PMThaksin, Thailand’s most powerful man – in terms of both wealth and political capital, be transparently tried in court.
A reason for PAD’s latest round of civic-assertiveness on Bangkok’s streets is PPP’s proposed constitution amendment that will, amongst other things, white-wash PMThaksin’s cases. If PMThaksin feels ‘100% innocent’ as he claims, then let the cases be tried in court without fear or favour and political and other interferences. Apart from PPP’s constitution amendments, the latest actions by his team of lawyers, if true, seems to further confirm my previous points that there are solid evidences to convict PMThaksin and family…
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/26/headlines/headlines_30076552.php
“Thana had argued in his earlier testimony that it was a mistake, as his driver got the wrong box for him to deliver to the court official.
The “wrong” box contained money intended for a land purchase, while Thana’s wife was said to have filled another bag with chocolate candy.”
The news also made Thairath’s headlines:
http://www.thairath.co.th/offline.php?section=hotnews&content=94831
р╕Хр╕▒р╕Фр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕Щр╕б 2 р╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ р╕Др╕╕р╕Б 6 р╣Ар╕Фр╕╖р╕нр╕Щ р╕лр╕Щ.р╕Чр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕┤р╕У [26 р╕бр╕┤.р╕в. 51 – 03:53]
I am a bit skeptical myself that one of the world’s smartest man like PMThaksin can fall on such crude bribe cases. Is this a man desperate and cornered? Is this also related to his appearance at GenAnupong’s Mother’s funeral to intentionally meet PMPrem and PMSurayud? Is this also because PMSamak is too independent and out of control???
Is he running out of money and needs the unfrozen of the billions in assets to contine the battle (to fund another election campaign?)? Can the courts be bribed with billions instead of two million? Is the money needed to buy Ronaldinho for ManCity? Is it needed for a big investment on Kong Island in Cambodia, said to be behind the smooth agreement between the Thai and Cambodian government concerning Khao PraVihear?
Sorry, it’s just my curiousities (and wild speculations, admittedly) – and maybe Thailand’s immediate political future hangs in a few of these questions…
Thai politics quote of the day
Thanks jonfernquest for your remarkable response. How you tie yourself in knots.
If you are following the PAD stuff you’d know that they have long claimed that electoral mandates don’t matter if “the people” are enraged or unhappy in some way. So I am not nitpicking. I was simply assuming that you did not equate elections and democracy (so why accuse me of that sin?).
I must be assessing your position correctly – despite its rather confused argument – for if you did equate elections with democracy, then you would want to have TRT/PPP in place as the elected government. Instead, the gist of your argument about Mussolini is that elections and/or democracy don’t work. Scrap the lot. That’s even more radical than Suriyasai!
My knowledge of Italian politics is rather patchy. However I do know that Mussolini was elected in 1921 but that the Fascists came to power by way of the March on Rome, essentially a coup. As Wikipedia has it: “The March on Rome was a coup d’état by which Mussolini’s National Fascist Party came to power in Italy and ousted Prime Minister Luigi Facta. The ‘march’ took place in 1922 between October 27 and October 29. On October 28, King Victor Emmanuel III refused his support to Facta and handed over power to Mussolini. Mussolini was supported by the military, the business class, and the liberal right-wing.” Sound familiar.
I have read the recent Pasuk and Baker book (and all of their others) and found it fascinating. I am currently reading Ockey’s book which has an argument that political participation (not sure if you’d see that as equated with democracy) is intrinsic to Thai political structures, especially at the village level, and that this politics has been suppressed by the elite. Interesting reading.
I have no comment on the part of the debate you mention as I didn’t see it, but I have no problem agreeing that corrupt politicians /former politicians shouldn’t be protected from a transparent legal process.
What about the chimps you converse with? Any word from them on these weighty matters?
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
I agree Andrew and the electorate will get to decide if there’s no coup and bloodshed – but we also have to give credit where credit is due. HOW DID WE GET TO THIS CENSURE DEBATE?
If the ultra-assertive PAD weren’t protesting/pressuring, on the whole, peacefully – it is highly likely that PPP, like TRT before it, will do anything to avoid and/or disrupt censure debates (remember PMThaksin’s Liverpool buying saga blanketing all media reporting of a censure debate???). You know as well as I do that “democracy” does not end at the ballot box. A working democracy has functioning, effective and transparent checks and balances. I am sure you and I have watched ‘Question Time’ on ABC occasionally – or ABC newsmen/women putting the hard questions to prime ministers and ministers of the day on TV. Do you see that kind of accountability in TRT/PPP? Has PMThaksin or PMSamak really faced that kind of grilling by the Opposition/media that is allowed to properly function? If you endorse ‘Mercedes-Benz S-Class’ quality democracy for Australia, then I expect you to maintain the same standard for Thailand (unless you also endorse PMThaksin’s “double standards”) – and not an outdated ‘Ford Model T’ democracy you seem to be prescribing. It seems quite disingenous otherwise.
If you do not accept a Labour government backbencher threatening a pub-worker with “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?” line, then your blogs should also be calling for Chalerm’s resignation right away… Stop throwing the words democracy, election, checks-and-balances, accountability around so lightly. Start demanding accountability and transparency of Thai politicians as you would Australians. Demand, in your blogs, that the poor Thais, urban and rural alike, get a democracy worth defending too.
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
nganadeeleg: Aren’t some of those republican types in the sorng mai aow camp too? I don’t see the PAD bringing up Republican’s posts at NM or those of republican sympathisers in the various webboards/blogs. From my reading of the various webboards, they are quite diverse. They are strongly against the coup, but doesn’t mean they are for Thaksin.
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
People like Samak should be unelectable (especially after his Burma, Tak Bai & 1976 comments).
I know, Samak is not the only one who has a smell around him, but please ask yourself: Is that as good as it gets?
“Some people” who supported the bloody Sarit regime, and acted (not just “comments”) on October 6, 1976 should not have been in high position, etc., but should have been put on trial and suffered long jail terms.
Any one who can “smell” only Samak must have severe nasal disorder. In fact the person should have his brain checked.
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
Reg (on the buses?) Varney: When the military was in power they managed the courts in a way that leaves many seeing them as compromised.
Which military in power are you referring to?
Presumably not the 2006 coup mob, because the compromise was on well before they came to power.
It is a circus
I will agree with you on that point.
btw, did you read today’s editorial in the Bangkok Post about Preah Vihear?
Do you accept they made some reasonable points about the issue, or do you just put it down to them being in campaign mode?
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
The only hope is for Thailand to become a new state or a protectorate of the United States and to let Americans run the country. In one generation those existing crooked politicians of all parties will disappear so that Thailand can start fresh. If you don’t like this, what alternative have you got? I see none viable.
“Samak’s government has no ability to shape public opinion”
I think the Nation is wrong and is just in campaign mode (as is the Bangkok POst at present, and looking increasingly like the rabid Nation). Thai Rath has given pretty good coverage of things like Preah Viharan (and their circulation dwarfs Nation). The debates have been on TV.
nganadeeleg: Hopefully Samak is not the best available. However, his comments on these things do not necessarily make him unelectable any more than Aphisit’s untruths and rabid nationalism make him unelectable.
Leaving aside that the electorate has now voted for TRT/PPP to be the government 3 (or 4) times, we need to acknowledge that a whole swathe of potentially good politicians have been neutered by the banning of TRT (and I don’t mean the whole 111).
Related to your other post (on the Peoples Alliance Against Democracy), for the legal system to work properly it needs to be reformed. How is that going to happen? When the military was in power they managed the courts in a way that leaves many seeing them as compromised. The vicious circle needs to be broken somewhere, and my bet would be that that will only happen under an elected government that has a decent opposition in place, keeping tabs on it, raising scandalous issues etc.
What we have now is a long way from that. It is a (crappy) government unable to operate because of continual opposition from those who never accepted the election result. In parliament the Democrats are just PADised in their debate. Where are the Dems showing any independence and capacity? It is a circus.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Two cautionary tales
Years ago, during the Nigerian civil war, a German mercenary by name of Rolf Steiner was hired by the Biafrian secessionists.
Steiner had been in the Hitler Youth, and had joined the French Foreign Legion after the war. He came to Biafra by word of mouth, part of a fifty man contingent.
When they realized that they might get killed, all the mercenaries but Steiner returned home.
At some point, Steiner was given his own battalion to command, mostly boy soldiers. He cut a dashing figure, and with his past history, he was a darling of the many foreign journalists covering the war. They never tired of writing about him.
Unfortunately, Steiner began to believe all the bullshit that the correspondents were churning out. He decided that being famous was better than being obscure.
He consented to one interview after another, sometimes even seeking out the reporters.
He portrayed himself as a hard bitten mercenary, graduate of the Foreign Legion, veteran of Dien Bien Phu and Algiers.
At one point he even wore an iron cross, to which he wasn’t entitled, being only 14-15 years old when WWII ended. But who’s checking when there’s a story to be written?
Eventually Steiner was kicked out of Biafra, allegedly for insulting the president to his face.
He made his way to the Sudan, to lead the rebels there in glorious battle against the government.
He was captured, tortured, gang raped and then sentenced to 30 years in prison.
After a few years, he was released. He died several years ago in South Africa, penniless and alone, buried in a paupers grave.
Our next candidate is Pauly Shore, the B grade comedian and actor.
Like most actors, Shore craves publicity. He NEEDS to see his name in print. Publicity is his life blood.
After several movies that bombed, his star was fading fast. People didn’t even recognize him on the street, much less ask for his autograph. What to do? What to do?
Shore used his connections to place his own obituary in the local paper. It was intended to create buzz.
He wanted people to start talking about him again. And of course, there was the added benefit of reading the many accolades he was sure were coming.
Most stories that appeared about him had words like “B grade actor”, “has been”, “failure”, and “jerk” somewhere in them.
Hmmm. This wasn’t quite working out.
Well, at some point it became known not only that he was still alive, but that he was the author of the obituary. Not good. Not good at all.
See him in the movies or television much these days? Didn’t think so. People in Hollywood are like people everywhere else – they don’t like being taken in and made fools of.
Chasing fame can be a bitch.
Thai politics quote of the day
Reg Varney: “Where was the word “democracy” used? I do see the word election…”
O no, now you’re nitpicking with words, does “election” mean “democracy” ?
Well, Reg, I’ll let you think about that, take the whole day, if you want…
Meanwhile, in the real world, last night, the minute Korn (a securities industry expert) brought up dismissal of the DSI person handling the Thaksin asssets concealment case, PPP starting running massive interference trying to delay the whole thing to the TV cutoff time, so no one could see it, wonder who they are working for?
Let the electorate decide, let the electorate decide,…the electorate is only part of the constitution, there are also laws, the judiciary, the SEC, all of which have been systematically thwarted and underminded…
Instead of wasting a whole day trying to decide whether “election” means “democracy” I’d go read the article on the telecommunications industry in Pasuk and Baker’s recent Thai Capital volume, try using your time more productively…
And then while you’re at, just to introduce a nice healthy note of skepticism on that oft repeated phrase, “let the electorate decide,” read a nice biography of Mussolini, a democratically elected king displacer, who concentrated all power in his own person, who even had his own gang of loyalists named the black shirts (the opposite of yellow shirts) running around Italy, not unlike the extrajudicial use of power favoured by Thaksin…
Thai politics quote of the day
Great, thanks. Got it now. Fabulous stuff. Good to see that the meaning of “Thai-style democracy” has changed only ever so little since Sarit’s time. The transformation of opportunistic social movements (if that term applies to CPD) through their collaboration with royalists and other conservatives has been remarkable.