23 June 2008
I miss your point.
Please rephrase.
What “editorial line?” and what do you mean overthrowing the monarchy? Are you alluding to the PAD’s accusations against Thaksin et. al? If so, you might have read I do not agree with all they are involved in. I tend to view Voltare’s statement about the right to speak as my guide. Jakrabhop’s main error is being with the TRT gang.
Hello….?
Reg Varney: “They didn’t and they can’t accept the result. So they are overturning it. Forget the buddhist nonsense for this is power politics plain and simple.”
No one referred to Buddhism at all. Why gratuitously insult the religion like this?
“Power politics” is simply redundant. The definition of politics is “actions or activities concerned with achieving and using power in a country or society.”
As for power, the TRT tried to suck all power in the land into a single gigantic political vacuum bag, disregarding the fact that there are other important interest groups in the country. That was a mistake.
Democracy is a good thing, the western religion of democracy as demonstrated here, that doesn’t recognise that there are other important political and economic interests and parts of a country that are essential to its proper functioning, that are not reflected in sheer vote numbers, will always find itself subject to developments like this, Anek Laothamatas’s “Tale of two constitutions.”
That rural farmers have a voice is important, that they have a voice that drowns out everything else obviously leads to problems, as we’ve seen, whether you call it democracy or not. It results in incompetent governments, the bullying of the free media, the legal system, etc. The essentialism that tries to reduce everything to one cause, for instance, one person Prem thwarting Democracy, is just ridiculous and laughable. Street protests can “bode ill for Thai democracy” and still be absolutely essential. The leaders of the protests can be monomaniac losers, while still be heroes performing an essential task.
Perfectly reasonable people like Supachai found the coup to be a blessing, despite (or perhaps because of) western warnings that this was not acceptable behaviour:
All this flag-waving and citing the monarchy bothers me immensely, but as I said before, all sides do this and they take advantage of the monarchy in ways that are highly improper if not totally unethical and even illegal.
What about making up stories and continuing through your editorial line and news stories that people are trying to overthrow monarchy? This is not mere citing of the monarchy. Do all sides do this?
Somewhat related, I received the following information about a conference on Buddhist economics coming up later in the year.
“This three day conference will feature among a long list of prominent people in the field of Buddhist economics, presentations by Phra Payutto, author of Buddhist Economics – A Middle Way for the Market Place; Ajarn Sulak Sivaraksa, preeminent Thai scholar and Buddhist activist; Ajarn Apichai Puntasen, author of the first recognized text book on Buddhist Economics; and Laszlo Zsolnai, founder of the Buddhist Economic Platform.
Please see the website http://Buddhist-Economics.info for details on the call for papers, the tentative program, registration and travel and accommodation details”.
No, His Greatness will step out only after a bloodbath when the two warring sides prostrate before Him and beg repentance. As of now, He does not want to lose popularity by the appearance of favoring any side. Hard luck for the country!
Wora: Thanks for such a reasoned and insightful comment. Originally the post was about Burma, but you seem to see the need to defend Thailand’s generals. Hope you have that slogan on your PAD (Pawns Against Democracy) placard.
The King has been consistently advising people to do their job properly including new & existing appointees to parliament, courts etc.
and any royal statement urging them, in the interests of national unity (which is a common royal rallying cry), to take their concerns to the ballot box at the next election?
You are forgetting that one of the main reasons PAD is protesting is that the government seems to equate electoral success with a not guilty court verdict, and think that success at the ballot box overrides any current courts cases and gives them the right to retrospectively change the rules to suit themselves (including police, military, investigative appointees etc)
IMO, if the King was to make a call for unity, it would need to be much more balanced than a simple call for PAD to respect the election result.
HM made clear on June 19th who the legitimate leader is.
Quoting from CNN:
During a meeting televised on the evening news Thursday, Thailand’s revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej urged Samak to keep his pledges to do good for the nation.
“I expect that you will do what you have promised and when you can do that, you will be satisfied,” the king said.
“With that satisfaction, the country will survive. I ask you to do good in everything, both in government work and other work, so that our country can carry on and people will be pleased.”
… but more to the point, can Thailand become a New Interest Economy? Bangkok has all the right geographic benefits, would there be a depression after the collapse of tourism, or would Thailand fail to take up a knowledge based manufacturing industry like Vietnam is at present?
I think if tourism were to fail — it would be like a 50 year old teacher getting a law degree, changing careers and still hoping to get a top position at a firm. The metaphor being, that tourism is Thailand, so much so that changing the national outlook would take a great deal more than a divine intervention from a podium as to how a sufficient manufacturing economy would thrive which would most probably lead to delusional, half baked attempts ending in cronyism and social turmoil. Also, the competitiveness of other regional actors would drive Thailand down the gurgler too, so I think Thailand may have left it too late to change it’s logical developmental progression – which, in the case of my delusional and romanticized dreams posted above, is not so good for Thais because tourism is an insatiable economic dependence which has fostered it’s own culture.
How would one feel if their culture felt no longer relevant?
There is sure to be a large drop in the numbers arriving from Europe in the next few years. However, India and China will become larger sources of tourists. They are closer geographically. It is also possible that road and rail links link to China will soon become a reality meaning that tourist arrivals will not be totally dependent on air travel.
Grasshopper (lovechild of John Lennon and the guy from the Beach--the book) says:
Of course, what I wrote there implies I am a ‘tourist’, a tourist with a private beach dream, but what I want to say is that with the increased price of plane tickets — perhaps there would be more ‘travelers’ to Thailand — and not travelers in tourist-agent speak either where it means if you book a ticket with them , even if it’s only for a month – you’re a traveler too. That’s another thing one can imagine with fewer tourists, less flimsy meanings for words because there are fewer marketing campaigns which have to appeal to anyone! Anyway, I’ve made being a traveler sound like a superior state of human, because really I’m still stuck at the mentality of whats-his-name from the Beach. Damn.
Grasshopper (lovechild of John Lennon and the guy from the Beach--the book) says:
Yes I foresee it! I foresee it like I foresaw meeting no 100% genuine Thai people on Khao Sahn Road and meeting genuine travelers from Generation X on pre-planned Ibiza like ‘adventuring’ experiences!!
Imagine islands with no tourists. Imagine all the people stuck in their own countries unable to escape the hell of their minds by hopping on a plane with their parents money, or their divorcee settlement and flying to Thailand to ‘forget’ everything. Imagine these tourists sorting out their problems over a 4 month car expedition to get to Thailand so that when they do get to Bangkok, Thai people are exposed to subdued, slightly dazed and friendly foreigners with sore knees. Imagine Bangkok as a cleaner city because Bangkokonians take pride in themselves as their economy finds parity with the West. Imagine hawkers needing to sell their products to Thais. Imagine rural people not being used as exhibits (see that $300,000 hotel tour post??), imagine the political development Thailand would undergo not needing to be mindful of what the world thinks? Actually, maybe scrap that last one. Imagine catching an ocean liner to Siam and writing a book in the time it takes. Imagine fewer tourists.. Ahh
I don’t support Thaksin, but I think what is said about country bumpkins is also equally applicable to the urbanites. The urban elite is often as ignorant as the rural one: it is a Thai trait to rely on rumors rather than vigorously debated fact. Also, many have as much an irrational, emotional hatred of Thaksin as the rural folk have a love for him.
Elections here are without a doubt dirty and crooked. Nonetheless, I believe the results of recent years do reflect the will of the majority of the electorate. The electorate, however, is not fully informed.
The electorate of most countries are not fully informed.
The real shame of it all is that, having delivered for these people, Thaksin could have at least tried to clean up the elections. He could have won a clean election and gone down in history as a statesman for doing so.
The truth is no Thai politician will ever clean up the thing that got them there. Thaksin is no different.
What a really a shame was the huge mandate and the hope so many had put on Thaksin during his first election into office with a brand new, progressive Constitution. That, was a shame.
23 June 2008
Of your last point we are in agreement.
Mr. Jakrabhoop, for all I agree with him on the right to speak, messed up by continuing Thaksin’s interference with the media.
The “discussion” on this post is getting tedious and unnecessarily abusive. Personally abusive comments that raise no issues of substance may not be approved!
Thailand will always have tourism, as long as the planes keep flying. The tourists will be from different places is all. Instead of North Americans and Europeans, they’ll be from Asia and Africa.
[…] So, whatever the mixed messages tell us – where does this leave Thailand’s tourism sector? Of all the countries where I have ever lived or visited it is the one that has the most obvious links to the global tourist economy (although, as an aside, the UK must be right up there, too). Does this make it particularly vulnerable? And, it goes without saying, very few of Thailand’s tourists currently come overland. […]
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Leave the PA(S)D alone!
23 June 2008
I miss your point.
Please rephrase.
What “editorial line?” and what do you mean overthrowing the monarchy? Are you alluding to the PAD’s accusations against Thaksin et. al? If so, you might have read I do not agree with all they are involved in. I tend to view Voltare’s statement about the right to speak as my guide. Jakrabhop’s main error is being with the TRT gang.
Hello….?
Thai politics quote of the day
Reg Varney: “They didn’t and they can’t accept the result. So they are overturning it. Forget the buddhist nonsense for this is power politics plain and simple.”
No one referred to Buddhism at all. Why gratuitously insult the religion like this?
“Power politics” is simply redundant. The definition of politics is “actions or activities concerned with achieving and using power in a country or society.”
As for power, the TRT tried to suck all power in the land into a single gigantic political vacuum bag, disregarding the fact that there are other important interest groups in the country. That was a mistake.
Democracy is a good thing, the western religion of democracy as demonstrated here, that doesn’t recognise that there are other important political and economic interests and parts of a country that are essential to its proper functioning, that are not reflected in sheer vote numbers, will always find itself subject to developments like this, Anek Laothamatas’s “Tale of two constitutions.”
That rural farmers have a voice is important, that they have a voice that drowns out everything else obviously leads to problems, as we’ve seen, whether you call it democracy or not. It results in incompetent governments, the bullying of the free media, the legal system, etc. The essentialism that tries to reduce everything to one cause, for instance, one person Prem thwarting Democracy, is just ridiculous and laughable. Street protests can “bode ill for Thai democracy” and still be absolutely essential. The leaders of the protests can be monomaniac losers, while still be heroes performing an essential task.
Perfectly reasonable people like Supachai found the coup to be a blessing, despite (or perhaps because of) western warnings that this was not acceptable behaviour:
http://www.readbangkokpost.com/business/shin_sale_and_coup/supachai_on_the_economic_bless.php
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
All this flag-waving and citing the monarchy bothers me immensely, but as I said before, all sides do this and they take advantage of the monarchy in ways that are highly improper if not totally unethical and even illegal.
What about making up stories and continuing through your editorial line and news stories that people are trying to overthrow monarchy? This is not mere citing of the monarchy. Do all sides do this?
Any chance of a word from on high?
Right on. If you are going to have elections, then you need to abide by the results.
Frank
Asbestos in Thailand
You mean the Thai Tobacco Monopoly??:
http://lists.essential.org/intl-tobacco/msg00290.html
“Buddhism in the Age of Consumerism” conference at Mahidol
Somewhat related, I received the following information about a conference on Buddhist economics coming up later in the year.
“This three day conference will feature among a long list of prominent people in the field of Buddhist economics, presentations by Phra Payutto, author of Buddhist Economics – A Middle Way for the Market Place; Ajarn Sulak Sivaraksa, preeminent Thai scholar and Buddhist activist; Ajarn Apichai Puntasen, author of the first recognized text book on Buddhist Economics; and Laszlo Zsolnai, founder of the Buddhist Economic Platform.
Please see the website http://Buddhist-Economics.info for details on the call for papers, the tentative program, registration and travel and accommodation details”.
Did anyone attend the first conference?
The end of phum panyaa
Agreed. This local wisdom is but a hoax.
Any chance of a word from on high?
No, His Greatness will step out only after a bloodbath when the two warring sides prostrate before Him and beg repentance. As of now, He does not want to lose popularity by the appearance of favoring any side. Hard luck for the country!
Hands up if you oppose puppet government with strings of colonialist?
Wora: Thanks for such a reasoned and insightful comment. Originally the post was about Burma, but you seem to see the need to defend Thailand’s generals. Hope you have that slogan on your PAD (Pawns Against Democracy) placard.
Any chance of a word from on high?
Another call for HMK to interfere in politics?
The King has been consistently advising people to do their job properly including new & existing appointees to parliament, courts etc.
and any royal statement urging them, in the interests of national unity (which is a common royal rallying cry), to take their concerns to the ballot box at the next election?
You are forgetting that one of the main reasons PAD is protesting is that the government seems to equate electoral success with a not guilty court verdict, and think that success at the ballot box overrides any current courts cases and gives them the right to retrospectively change the rules to suit themselves (including police, military, investigative appointees etc)
IMO, if the King was to make a call for unity, it would need to be much more balanced than a simple call for PAD to respect the election result.
Any chance of a word from on high?
HM made clear on June 19th who the legitimate leader is.
Quoting from CNN:
During a meeting televised on the evening news Thursday, Thailand’s revered King Bhumibol Adulyadej urged Samak to keep his pledges to do good for the nation.
“I expect that you will do what you have promised and when you can do that, you will be satisfied,” the king said.
“With that satisfaction, the country will survive. I ask you to do good in everything, both in government work and other work, so that our country can carry on and people will be pleased.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/06/19/thailand.politics.ap/index.html
Swedes love Thailand…and Australia in second place
… but more to the point, can Thailand become a New Interest Economy? Bangkok has all the right geographic benefits, would there be a depression after the collapse of tourism, or would Thailand fail to take up a knowledge based manufacturing industry like Vietnam is at present?
I think if tourism were to fail — it would be like a 50 year old teacher getting a law degree, changing careers and still hoping to get a top position at a firm. The metaphor being, that tourism is Thailand, so much so that changing the national outlook would take a great deal more than a divine intervention from a podium as to how a sufficient manufacturing economy would thrive which would most probably lead to delusional, half baked attempts ending in cronyism and social turmoil. Also, the competitiveness of other regional actors would drive Thailand down the gurgler too, so I think Thailand may have left it too late to change it’s logical developmental progression – which, in the case of my delusional and romanticized dreams posted above, is not so good for Thais because tourism is an insatiable economic dependence which has fostered it’s own culture.
How would one feel if their culture felt no longer relevant?
Swedes love Thailand…and Australia in second place
There is sure to be a large drop in the numbers arriving from Europe in the next few years. However, India and China will become larger sources of tourists. They are closer geographically. It is also possible that road and rail links link to China will soon become a reality meaning that tourist arrivals will not be totally dependent on air travel.
Swedes love Thailand…and Australia in second place
Of course, what I wrote there implies I am a ‘tourist’, a tourist with a private beach dream, but what I want to say is that with the increased price of plane tickets — perhaps there would be more ‘travelers’ to Thailand — and not travelers in tourist-agent speak either where it means if you book a ticket with them , even if it’s only for a month – you’re a traveler too. That’s another thing one can imagine with fewer tourists, less flimsy meanings for words because there are fewer marketing campaigns which have to appeal to anyone! Anyway, I’ve made being a traveler sound like a superior state of human, because really I’m still stuck at the mentality of whats-his-name from the Beach. Damn.
Swedes love Thailand…and Australia in second place
Yes I foresee it! I foresee it like I foresaw meeting no 100% genuine Thai people on Khao Sahn Road and meeting genuine travelers from Generation X on pre-planned Ibiza like ‘adventuring’ experiences!!
Imagine islands with no tourists. Imagine all the people stuck in their own countries unable to escape the hell of their minds by hopping on a plane with their parents money, or their divorcee settlement and flying to Thailand to ‘forget’ everything. Imagine these tourists sorting out their problems over a 4 month car expedition to get to Thailand so that when they do get to Bangkok, Thai people are exposed to subdued, slightly dazed and friendly foreigners with sore knees. Imagine Bangkok as a cleaner city because Bangkokonians take pride in themselves as their economy finds parity with the West. Imagine hawkers needing to sell their products to Thais. Imagine rural people not being used as exhibits (see that $300,000 hotel tour post??), imagine the political development Thailand would undergo not needing to be mindful of what the world thinks? Actually, maybe scrap that last one. Imagine catching an ocean liner to Siam and writing a book in the time it takes. Imagine fewer tourists.. Ahh
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
I don’t support Thaksin, but I think what is said about country bumpkins is also equally applicable to the urbanites. The urban elite is often as ignorant as the rural one: it is a Thai trait to rely on rumors rather than vigorously debated fact. Also, many have as much an irrational, emotional hatred of Thaksin as the rural folk have a love for him.
Elections here are without a doubt dirty and crooked. Nonetheless, I believe the results of recent years do reflect the will of the majority of the electorate. The electorate, however, is not fully informed.
The electorate of most countries are not fully informed.
The real shame of it all is that, having delivered for these people, Thaksin could have at least tried to clean up the elections. He could have won a clean election and gone down in history as a statesman for doing so.
The truth is no Thai politician will ever clean up the thing that got them there. Thaksin is no different.
What a really a shame was the huge mandate and the hope so many had put on Thaksin during his first election into office with a brand new, progressive Constitution. That, was a shame.
Leave the PA(S)D alone!
23 June 2008
Of your last point we are in agreement.
Mr. Jakrabhoop, for all I agree with him on the right to speak, messed up by continuing Thaksin’s interference with the media.
JSEAS special issue on Burma is out now
The “discussion” on this post is getting tedious and unnecessarily abusive. Personally abusive comments that raise no issues of substance may not be approved!
Swedes love Thailand…and Australia in second place
Thailand will always have tourism, as long as the planes keep flying. The tourists will be from different places is all. Instead of North Americans and Europeans, they’ll be from Asia and Africa.
The Stilwell Road
[…] So, whatever the mixed messages tell us – where does this leave Thailand’s tourism sector? Of all the countries where I have ever lived or visited it is the one that has the most obvious links to the global tourist economy (although, as an aside, the UK must be right up there, too). Does this make it particularly vulnerable? And, it goes without saying, very few of Thailand’s tourists currently come overland. […]