In light of the King’s words, I would now like to know why all the legal scaremongering about lese majeste?
It seems a jail sentence is the least of the worries, which should also mean that legal fees can also be minimized – is the secrecy/lack of transparency the main cause of concern?
Of course, aside from jail, the other big risk would be some sort of discrimination against you making a living, or possibly violence from a fanatic or a mob (which is probably on a par with the general risk in Thailand from speaking your mind or treading on someone’s toes), however I don’t think the King is the one who should be blamed for that.
In light of the embarrassment that LM causes the King, I am surprised that more creative lawyers have not made a counter LM claim, especially in the more frivolous cases – everyone gets tainted – if that happened more maybe the stupid law will get removed!
Sidh S: You should get out and about more. There are plenty of Thais outside the middle class and elite (the implication of your comment on technology etc.) who are highly critical of the palace. I believe that is why there is so much sensitivity at present.
On your question, the point is that Jop claims to speak for all Thais. I object to this assertion. My friends see this notion of “father” as an inelegant feudal ideology being foisted on 21st century Thais (of course that is my interpretation of rather more blunt statements).
According to the king (via Jop): “[Under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels?” He doesn’t know his Thai history very well, does he.
Well, it was interpretated as such by the Nation newspaper (see below) which seems to be an accurate interpretation of what the King actually said (see below also).
I think people are still going to press charges because as a political attack, having been charged and convicted with lese majeste would still cause the person under attack to carry the social stigma of someone who has caused injury to the King. In non-politically motivated cases, there are many people out there who would get very emotionally angry at, for example, the Swiss man’s actions and they would feel that the right thing to do is to press charges and would thus go ahead with it.
Translation of relevant part from the King’s speech:
“[Under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels? Actually, there had never been. I also followed the same way: Do not send them to jail, but release [them]. If they are in jail, release them. If they are not in jail, I will not sue because I am in trouble. A person who is insulted is in troubled. People who violate the King, and are punished are not in trouble but the King is in trouble. This is strange. Lawyers like to launch suits and send them to jail.”
My sympathy jonfernquest. We are aware that the Thai bureaucracy (where PMSamak is quite popular) – your experiences of public university system being part of it is quite often ruled by self-righteous Phu-yais. Maybe the trend is already there and one day (if not already in many areas), private institutions such as Rangsit U, Bangkok U, Assumption U (where merit holds sway over patronage) will rate higher than prestigious public unis such Chula, Thammasat, or Kaset once US-style education ratings are adopted (the education ministry has been dabbling with it over the past years and many old public institutions were not happy).
W hile – for the most part – I am against the privatization of education, I agree with independent ratings (adopted from private sectors). I think it is a way to move towards more meritocracy (even if my own alma mater didn’t perform well – although I had a great undergraduate education and have been, on the main, impressed and inspired by my former ajarns). Education must be of good quality and assessible to all socio-economic groups and private institutions often fail to provide that. While Thai public university’s quality will improve greatly will less patronage…
However, I am seeing things from the outside now jonfernquest and am certain that you see things much clearer than me. I appreciate your sticking to the task of educating Thai students.
I have not criticized the content of Jakrapob’s speech because for the most part, I agree with it (except when he linked it to the PMPrem and higher institutions – which is rather personal and unsurprisingly landed him in political hotwater). It is an important speech for Thai bureaucracy (as Thai private sector are light years ahead) but the wrong person delivered it in the wrong context. I think Ajarn Ji Ungpakorn would have been the right person (a big reform in the country’s most prestigious institution can lead to reforms of the whole system).
jonfernquest, maybe you raised the issue affecting many bi-lingual, multi-lingual people. They have different cultural personas depending on the language spoken (at least I do). What Jakrapob failed to do is to prioritize personas – especially if he considers himself a politician, that must cater to the voting public, first and foremost. His actions does provide evidences that suggest that he care less about winning in his electorate than about getting PMThaksin’s patronage, which gets him straight into the cabinet without having to win the election. His controlling of the media also suggests that, at the very least, he shouldn’t be based in a Bangkok constituency – where meddling with the media is often unpopular. At the end of the day, maybe he is only a smart opportunist who’s contradicting words and actions caught up with him. This is unfortunate, as he is one highly talented person (well, as is PMThaksin).
“…I just did a quick survey of 3-4 Thais near me and they all disagreed with the idea of the king being the father.”
Out of curiousity Reg Varney, so what did the 3-4 Thais thought about HMK?
I do agree with Arthur McBride’s observation – although it probably predates his 18 years residency, albeit in private (as Thais are often quite critical people in private – especially with close friends and family). That it is being expressed more publicly does reflect Thai society’s evolution (higher income, higher education, more urban lifestyle, new communication technologies etc.) – and HMK will have observed that in saying that he can be criticized. The future trajectory is quite obvious (more likely Japanese-style constitutional monarchy than British). I am an optimist here and I think society is on a very slow crawl towards a more effective rule of law and checks and balances of power (where the military can no longer rationalize coups based on corrupt politicians – as they’ll be effective independent judicial/civic mechanisms to address that)… It might be faster depending on how conflicts between PMThaksin/PPP, PAD, and the new “White” movement are resolved…
Jop said: He made a point to say that he would pardon anyone who was convicted of lese majeste, and which he did when a Swiss man was later convicted for the offence. I truly believe that he will stick with what he has said and will continue to pardon any further convicted persons.
Is that from his 2005 speech, or somewhere else?
I have never seen his ‘I can be criticized’ speech interpreted as a guarantee that all will be pardoned, and if true then why do people keep making the charge when police & court time will inevitably be wasted?
An interesting comment at the very least. But, did you actually see him saying it, or was it a quote? Can you provide an estimated date of the day you watched this and in what city? Maybe we can get info on the documentary.
“PM Samak has the kind of mindset and attitude that belongs in the past, in the older, more tradition-bound version of Thailand which no longer exists.”
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), outside of Bangkok, out in the boonies, “phuyai-rule” and “phuyai-knows-best norms” are still alive and kicking.
One staple of the puu yai system is some senior administrator alpha male (or female) behind a large imposing and rather fear inducing desk where junior staff members come to pay obeisance and make requests for their own benefit in some way, the assumption always being that the senior is granting the junior some boon, just like a fairytale, because the senior administrator is behind this big desk he never actually sees what is happening, except at token inspection tours when everyone wai’s a slow meaningful greeting to him as he passes by, or at the annual dam hua ceremony when everyone genuflects him, or at his annual birthday party on the day before Christmas, the birth of Christ, attended by the whole university, except missionaries, the result is that he does not see the chaos going on beneath him… (just like the ants in the lawn in the opening of David Lynch’s BlueVelvet)
…there was a rather pathetic aging alcoholic in our university department, who slept in his older sister’s basement when he returned to Canada and was finally kicked out of her house because she caught him drinking down in the basement, while he was working at the uni his hill tribe girl friend rent-a-wife, angry with his personal finances, ripped up his mattress with a carving knife, stole the TV and 5,000 baht, the last straw was his ritual of drinking one bottle of Singha every evening at five smack in front of the entrance of the uni, at a table clearly visible from the road, the uni president saw him and was outraged (never mind that he probably saw him on the way to an evening tryst with his mistress or one of those group outings with the boys to the massage parlour…), the ironic thing, is that this quiet guy who never took an initiative on any project or helped in leadership positions in any way whatsoever, was rewarded more than any other teacher when it came to bonuses and salary increases , which just goes to show what is more important, quiet passive acceptance of seniority or actually doing and accomplishing anything, I don’t pretend I saw everything, but the patronage system at that uni, made it effectively a basket case, something I never want to witness again or be associated with, for as long as I live, amen,
o then there was the LA guy they hired who had been in a coma for three years after being hit by a bus, who sadly had problems connecting thoughts and words, who was hired by this 23 year old just out of college, made temporary personnel director, son of a colleague of the supervisor, a rich woman with a PhD from the US, the LA-hit-by-a-bus-guy used his settlement money to hang out with local bar girls (puu-ying kai borikaan, as polite people are wont to say) and all his students knew about this and would tease and taunt him continually, the young (actually not from Princeton) Princeton Volunteers volunteer there for a quick impressive-resume-building-stint, both pitied him because of his accident and brain damage, while at the same time being repelled by the fact that he taught 18-19 year olds [ Thai: dek] during the day and hung out at a bar called the Schoolroom where all the waitresses dressed in school outfits, at night, being only 23 with advanced skills in irony not yet fully developed, this only confused the poor girl…
While in Germany, I watched part of a documentary on Asian monarchies. In English, a young King Bhumipol said (quoting from my memory), “Ananda’s death was political murder. But I cannot say whether it involved the international level.”
The current controversy over the PAD, pro and con, reminds me that Thailand’s greatest divisiveness problem may not be in society itself but in opposition circles wherever they may be at any particular time. There is a great deal of calling to always conform or be harmonious, and that seems to get in the way of people, leaders and groups from committing to the basic issues and allowing others to have different views.
Jop: Arthur’s post suggests that you are not correct in your simplistic assertions about the king and Thais feelings. I just did a quick survey of 3-4 Thais near me and they all disagreed with the idea of the king being the father. It is simply ideological nonsense and a relatively recent creation. Your observations are no more than one person’s beliefs so why foist them on the whole Thai population?
The budget that goes into creating and maintaining these royal myths (which you either believe or feel compelled to parrot) is enormous. Why? It is to protect an institution that **needs** to be protected.
The argument that the king doesn’t want lese majeste laws holds little sway. This is the usual beat-up that the king really doesn’t want these laws but that nasty others keep using it. Plenty of academic research has been done on this. The impact of the LM laws are to frighten and to silence. That suits the interests of the palace and the conservative elite.
That outsiders should not criticize the king – the implication of your comments on fathers – is rejected. If a father does wrong, he can be criticized, in any family. This also applies to “Asian” families – you have a large sample there and of great variety and diversity.
But, hey, you believe all this paternalistic nonsense, so what difference does it make for you to hear otherwise. Be happy in your royalist beliefs and feel great joy in all of the royal propaganda on TV, relish Thongdaeng’s achievements, and so on.
Frank – I am not naive enough to think that the sort of pseudo-exotic escape that Thailand offers combined with the ease of expense, is something the average punter will give up in order to make a political statement. I have loved the time have spent there. I was simply pointing out that dissuading even a few people can spread the awareness and the internet is the perfect tool for the job … should someone feel so inclined.
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Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
Thank you Khun Jop.
In light of the King’s words, I would now like to know why all the legal scaremongering about lese majeste?
It seems a jail sentence is the least of the worries, which should also mean that legal fees can also be minimized – is the secrecy/lack of transparency the main cause of concern?
Of course, aside from jail, the other big risk would be some sort of discrimination against you making a living, or possibly violence from a fanatic or a mob (which is probably on a par with the general risk in Thailand from speaking your mind or treading on someone’s toes), however I don’t think the King is the one who should be blamed for that.
In light of the embarrassment that LM causes the King, I am surprised that more creative lawyers have not made a counter LM claim, especially in the more frivolous cases – everyone gets tainted – if that happened more maybe the stupid law will get removed!
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
Sidh S: You should get out and about more. There are plenty of Thais outside the middle class and elite (the implication of your comment on technology etc.) who are highly critical of the palace. I believe that is why there is so much sensitivity at present.
On your question, the point is that Jop claims to speak for all Thais. I object to this assertion. My friends see this notion of “father” as an inelegant feudal ideology being foisted on 21st century Thais (of course that is my interpretation of rather more blunt statements).
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
According to the king (via Jop): “[Under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels?” He doesn’t know his Thai history very well, does he.
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
khun nganadeeleg,
Well, it was interpretated as such by the Nation newspaper (see below) which seems to be an accurate interpretation of what the King actually said (see below also).
I think people are still going to press charges because as a political attack, having been charged and convicted with lese majeste would still cause the person under attack to carry the social stigma of someone who has caused injury to the King. In non-politically motivated cases, there are many people out there who would get very emotionally angry at, for example, the Swiss man’s actions and they would feel that the right thing to do is to press charges and would thus go ahead with it.
interpretation by Nation newspaper:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/specials/60thking/dec5.php
Translation of relevant part from the King’s speech:
“[Under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels? Actually, there had never been. I also followed the same way: Do not send them to jail, but release [them]. If they are in jail, release them. If they are not in jail, I will not sue because I am in trouble. A person who is insulted is in troubled. People who violate the King, and are punished are not in trouble but the King is in trouble. This is strange. Lawyers like to launch suits and send them to jail.”
Bangkok Post’s brave attack on the patronage system!
My sympathy jonfernquest. We are aware that the Thai bureaucracy (where PMSamak is quite popular) – your experiences of public university system being part of it is quite often ruled by self-righteous Phu-yais. Maybe the trend is already there and one day (if not already in many areas), private institutions such as Rangsit U, Bangkok U, Assumption U (where merit holds sway over patronage) will rate higher than prestigious public unis such Chula, Thammasat, or Kaset once US-style education ratings are adopted (the education ministry has been dabbling with it over the past years and many old public institutions were not happy).
W hile – for the most part – I am against the privatization of education, I agree with independent ratings (adopted from private sectors). I think it is a way to move towards more meritocracy (even if my own alma mater didn’t perform well – although I had a great undergraduate education and have been, on the main, impressed and inspired by my former ajarns). Education must be of good quality and assessible to all socio-economic groups and private institutions often fail to provide that. While Thai public university’s quality will improve greatly will less patronage…
However, I am seeing things from the outside now jonfernquest and am certain that you see things much clearer than me. I appreciate your sticking to the task of educating Thai students.
I have not criticized the content of Jakrapob’s speech because for the most part, I agree with it (except when he linked it to the PMPrem and higher institutions – which is rather personal and unsurprisingly landed him in political hotwater). It is an important speech for Thai bureaucracy (as Thai private sector are light years ahead) but the wrong person delivered it in the wrong context. I think Ajarn Ji Ungpakorn would have been the right person (a big reform in the country’s most prestigious institution can lead to reforms of the whole system).
“Does anyone care what Jakrapop actually said?”
jonfernquest, maybe you raised the issue affecting many bi-lingual, multi-lingual people. They have different cultural personas depending on the language spoken (at least I do). What Jakrapob failed to do is to prioritize personas – especially if he considers himself a politician, that must cater to the voting public, first and foremost. His actions does provide evidences that suggest that he care less about winning in his electorate than about getting PMThaksin’s patronage, which gets him straight into the cabinet without having to win the election. His controlling of the media also suggests that, at the very least, he shouldn’t be based in a Bangkok constituency – where meddling with the media is often unpopular. At the end of the day, maybe he is only a smart opportunist who’s contradicting words and actions caught up with him. This is unfortunate, as he is one highly talented person (well, as is PMThaksin).
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
“…I just did a quick survey of 3-4 Thais near me and they all disagreed with the idea of the king being the father.”
Out of curiousity Reg Varney, so what did the 3-4 Thais thought about HMK?
I do agree with Arthur McBride’s observation – although it probably predates his 18 years residency, albeit in private (as Thais are often quite critical people in private – especially with close friends and family). That it is being expressed more publicly does reflect Thai society’s evolution (higher income, higher education, more urban lifestyle, new communication technologies etc.) – and HMK will have observed that in saying that he can be criticized. The future trajectory is quite obvious (more likely Japanese-style constitutional monarchy than British). I am an optimist here and I think society is on a very slow crawl towards a more effective rule of law and checks and balances of power (where the military can no longer rationalize coups based on corrupt politicians – as they’ll be effective independent judicial/civic mechanisms to address that)… It might be faster depending on how conflicts between PMThaksin/PPP, PAD, and the new “White” movement are resolved…
Bangkok Post’s brave attack on the patronage system!
Sorry, Simon but I can’t resist: You seriously don’t see the stupidity of your comment do you?
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
Jop said: He made a point to say that he would pardon anyone who was convicted of lese majeste, and which he did when a Swiss man was later convicted for the offence. I truly believe that he will stick with what he has said and will continue to pardon any further convicted persons.
Is that from his 2005 speech, or somewhere else?
I have never seen his ‘I can be criticized’ speech interpreted as a guarantee that all will be pardoned, and if true then why do people keep making the charge when police & court time will inevitably be wasted?
Bangkok Post’s brave attack on the patronage system!
When we talk about Mak we talk about Feudal Patronage
“The Jakrapob Code” by Chulalongkorn’s Professor Anan shows clearly that Jakrapob was talking about Royal Patronage System
2 different subjects, as for the Bangkok Post, they are doing a good job, the Jakrapob however has no job now and might end up in shackles
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
An interesting comment at the very least. But, did you actually see him saying it, or was it a quote? Can you provide an estimated date of the day you watched this and in what city? Maybe we can get info on the documentary.
Bangkok Post’s brave attack on the patronage system!
“PM Samak has the kind of mindset and attitude that belongs in the past, in the older, more tradition-bound version of Thailand which no longer exists.”
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), outside of Bangkok, out in the boonies, “phuyai-rule” and “phuyai-knows-best norms” are still alive and kicking.
One staple of the puu yai system is some senior administrator alpha male (or female) behind a large imposing and rather fear inducing desk where junior staff members come to pay obeisance and make requests for their own benefit in some way, the assumption always being that the senior is granting the junior some boon, just like a fairytale, because the senior administrator is behind this big desk he never actually sees what is happening, except at token inspection tours when everyone wai’s a slow meaningful greeting to him as he passes by, or at the annual dam hua ceremony when everyone genuflects him, or at his annual birthday party on the day before Christmas, the birth of Christ, attended by the whole university, except missionaries, the result is that he does not see the chaos going on beneath him… (just like the ants in the lawn in the opening of David Lynch’s BlueVelvet)
…there was a rather pathetic aging alcoholic in our university department, who slept in his older sister’s basement when he returned to Canada and was finally kicked out of her house because she caught him drinking down in the basement, while he was working at the uni his hill tribe girl friend rent-a-wife, angry with his personal finances, ripped up his mattress with a carving knife, stole the TV and 5,000 baht, the last straw was his ritual of drinking one bottle of Singha every evening at five smack in front of the entrance of the uni, at a table clearly visible from the road, the uni president saw him and was outraged (never mind that he probably saw him on the way to an evening tryst with his mistress or one of those group outings with the boys to the massage parlour…), the ironic thing, is that this quiet guy who never took an initiative on any project or helped in leadership positions in any way whatsoever, was rewarded more than any other teacher when it came to bonuses and salary increases , which just goes to show what is more important, quiet passive acceptance of seniority or actually doing and accomplishing anything, I don’t pretend I saw everything, but the patronage system at that uni, made it effectively a basket case, something I never want to witness again or be associated with, for as long as I live, amen,
o then there was the LA guy they hired who had been in a coma for three years after being hit by a bus, who sadly had problems connecting thoughts and words, who was hired by this 23 year old just out of college, made temporary personnel director, son of a colleague of the supervisor, a rich woman with a PhD from the US, the LA-hit-by-a-bus-guy used his settlement money to hang out with local bar girls (puu-ying kai borikaan, as polite people are wont to say) and all his students knew about this and would tease and taunt him continually, the young (actually not from Princeton) Princeton Volunteers volunteer there for a quick impressive-resume-building-stint, both pitied him because of his accident and brain damage, while at the same time being repelled by the fact that he taught 18-19 year olds [ Thai: dek] during the day and hung out at a bar called the Schoolroom where all the waitresses dressed in school outfits, at night, being only 23 with advanced skills in irony not yet fully developed, this only confused the poor girl…
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
While in Germany, I watched part of a documentary on Asian monarchies. In English, a young King Bhumipol said (quoting from my memory), “Ananda’s death was political murder. But I cannot say whether it involved the international level.”
Lèse majesté and the BBC
The current controversy over the PAD, pro and con, reminds me that Thailand’s greatest divisiveness problem may not be in society itself but in opposition circles wherever they may be at any particular time. There is a great deal of calling to always conform or be harmonious, and that seems to get in the way of people, leaders and groups from committing to the basic issues and allowing others to have different views.
Bangkok Post’s brave attack on the patronage system!
Did the Nepalese Maoists have to find political father-figures to do their work for them?
Lèse majesté and the BBC
Understood. Thanks. I tend to think big, and boycott to me meant a real boycott, organized and widespread. Matter of inference. Sorry.
Exhibition: The King – “Father of Thai Innovation”
Jop: Arthur’s post suggests that you are not correct in your simplistic assertions about the king and Thais feelings. I just did a quick survey of 3-4 Thais near me and they all disagreed with the idea of the king being the father. It is simply ideological nonsense and a relatively recent creation. Your observations are no more than one person’s beliefs so why foist them on the whole Thai population?
The budget that goes into creating and maintaining these royal myths (which you either believe or feel compelled to parrot) is enormous. Why? It is to protect an institution that **needs** to be protected.
The argument that the king doesn’t want lese majeste laws holds little sway. This is the usual beat-up that the king really doesn’t want these laws but that nasty others keep using it. Plenty of academic research has been done on this. The impact of the LM laws are to frighten and to silence. That suits the interests of the palace and the conservative elite.
That outsiders should not criticize the king – the implication of your comments on fathers – is rejected. If a father does wrong, he can be criticized, in any family. This also applies to “Asian” families – you have a large sample there and of great variety and diversity.
But, hey, you believe all this paternalistic nonsense, so what difference does it make for you to hear otherwise. Be happy in your royalist beliefs and feel great joy in all of the royal propaganda on TV, relish Thongdaeng’s achievements, and so on.
Lèse majesté and the BBC
Frank – I am not naive enough to think that the sort of pseudo-exotic escape that Thailand offers combined with the ease of expense, is something the average punter will give up in order to make a political statement. I have loved the time have spent there. I was simply pointing out that dissuading even a few people can spread the awareness and the internet is the perfect tool for the job … should someone feel so inclined.
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