Teth: I think the worst case would be much worse that the mere replacement scenario you outlined, and therefore cannot see any point in going through the inevitable violence getting there.
Apart from differences in the respective monarchies, your comparison with Nepal is also a bit premature – wait another 60 years and get back to me.
Like it or not, the old power has an established image throughout the world, and has a reputation to uphold – would a replacement new power have those constraints?
A few of you continually hark back to the 1970’s as some sort of evidence of how bad the old power is, but you never seem concerned about putting things into proper context be referring to the mood of those times – remember it was only 1970 when the Kent State massacre occurred, and I’m sure you don’t need me to remind you of the other crimes being perpetrated in the Thai region at the time.
Here’s some ‘relativist drivel’ for you to consider:
Please tally up all the deaths which can be directly attributed by the old power, and then compare that with some of the goings on in other Asian countries, or African, or middle eastern countries.
Or make a comparison with the Iraq death tallies pre & post Saddam.
The Thaksin example makes me think your mere replacement scenario is a strong likelihood, and not just a worst case scenario.
Of course I am not happy with ‘network monarchy’, but I do think it is now premature (or too late) to go the republican route.
The situation may change after a few years under the next monarch.
For there to be any improvement, IMO, there has to be attitudinal change at both the top and bottom (and middle) of the Thai political spectrum.
If the top changes without the bottom, then your worst case will be reality, however if the bottom changes, then eventually the top will be forced to follow suit.
Apologies for the shameless self-post, but it started as a comment. However, posting too many links here and writing a longish comment worries me that Firefox will crash and the post will disappear.
According to Silkworm, the price is 695 Baht. It is listed as available at <a hre”http://www.asiabooks.com/browse/bookinfo.aspx?ProID=9789749511381″Asia Books.
I agree that it is important that scholars trained in Islamic Studies and knowledgeable about the comparative, historical complexities of Islam as a scriptural tradition and a living social reality join the
discussion about the situation in the Thai South. And critique the arguments advanced by other scholars. This is a badly lacking perspective so far in work on the South, particularly with regards to political Islam. So I would also encourage you to provide reviews of not only McCargo’s work, but that of others besides him, and to publish these not just here but in academic journals or other venues as well.
In that vein, are you familiar with the work of Alexander Horstmann on the Tablighi Jamaat al-Dawa movement and Southern Thailand? And if so, what are your thoughts on his arguments?
In general, it would seem to me that ideally one needs both historians of religion and anthropologists working in conversation with each other on these topics and issues regarding the Islamic framing of politics, religion, violence and history to more fully understand recent developments. And that these two perspective also need to engage with other such as experts in politics, insurgencies, terrorism, etc.
It seems to me that McCargo, along with Connors, intelligently criticize the extreme and uncontextualized analyses of terrorism scholars who buy into a war on terror framing and seek to aggressively and concretly link violence in the south to Al-Qeada and other radical movements. But they also frequently tend to over assert a political science perspective that treats religious factors as simply ideological at best and irrelevant at worst in comparison with the ‘real’ social factors of (elite) politics, policy, political culture, etc.
This debate is also found beyond the work on Thailand, for instance in John Sidel’s work on Islamism and political violence in Indonesia, in which his stand is very similar in its broad contours and approach, I would argue, to that of McCargo’s on the south. There are however appreciative but critical responses to Sidel’s work as well. As for instance in Vatikiotis’s review in the Asia Times: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IH22Ae01.html
or in a recent review of the same book in the April issue of the Far Eastern Economic Review (for which one needs a subscription to access the PDF). Comparative attention to these debates beyond Thailand might profitably benefit those thinking about the violence in the South.
The popularity of large dams comes from the fact that they possess massive ‘contingency funds’ at the ready to pave (read ‘pay’) the way through all beaurocratic, human rights, environmental and social justice obstacles. It is no coincidence that nearly every developed country in the world where corruption is less pervasive currently refues to continue building these monstrosities due to their extremely well documented downsides which outweigh the benefits.
The winners of the Nam Tha nation building charade are the Chinese dam developers and the Lao officials who clean up by signing off on the projects. The losers are the Lao people and their wonderful environments. It used to be the world bank and the Asian development bank who mainly funded poorly thought through dam projects but with China now loaded with funds a lot worse is to come. My sincere sympathies go out to the Lao people.
The best we can do is bring pressure to bear upon China to address it’s appaling lack of respect for human rights and the environment. Press your government to boycott the Olympic opening ceremony as this is the clearest way to send a message to Beijing that their Human rights and environmental policies simply dont cut it in the real world.
There is a point, I’d be very interested to read these responses. I’d also be interested to know the backgrounds of these leaders. If my reaction justifies relativism, yours justifies imperialism and cultural hegemony.
I am saying is that superficial differences, which – for me – include the language of rights, intereferes and inhibits universal communication. I use a relativist argument to disprove faux universalism. You have not answered my arguments against this sort of ‘unviersalism’, only lampooned me with … ‘you pretentious blabbermouth…’
Does anyone know if there really is, or isn’t, a movement to install a republic?
Movement? Not that I’m aware of.
Is (was) Republican a one man band?
Probably, but there are plenty to share Republican views in Thailand. More people than you think, just like there are probably more independent thinkers in Thailand than you think.
Personally, given the nature of Thai politics and the elected politicians we have seen so far, I would have thought that such a move would be premature.
Let’s say Republicanism in Thailand has been around far longer than that. And for a reason too. Its only now seeing a sort of revival.
I see you are still up to your old tricks of accrediting HMK inappropriately. Perhaps it would surprise you then that what is probably the strongest Republican ‘movement’ in Thai history was probably after 1976.
If Thailand were to follow the path of Nepal, the worst case scenario is the replacement of one clique/cabal with another, so I don’t see how Republicanism is “premature” at all. Really, what is the new power going to do that the old one hasn’t? Or, what is the old power doing that the new won’t be able to do?
Seems I struck a nerve. Your comments still are read by me as being a justification for cultural relativism and the more you rant, the more it seems so and the sillier it sounds. I don’t know much about Clinton – not someone I hold out for pearls of wisdom but are you using her to support your position or as an example of universalism? Of course, I am familiar with Berlin. But univeralism does have an intellectual basis (as does cultural relativism on this issue). I suppose I could quote LKY, Mahathir and other relativatists on Asian Values and human rights and the responses they got from other Asian leaders who think that there is something in a notion of human rights that matter to people facing oppression. No point I guess.
I thought I better respond to…’it reads relativist to me’ I don’t know how to respond to that one. You win! I believe in a universal nature, but the way universality is wielded by people who can write ‘it reads relativist to me’, is just the same as someone saying ‘damn looks like a homo… sechsual’ in Alabama.
If you are a masochist Dog Lover, I suggest you checkout another pompous baboon named Isaiah Berlin. He didn’t have anything to hide by using a moniker…
Because human rights transcend individual regimes and customs. The beliefs inscribed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were not invented 50 years ago. They are not the work of a single culture or country. They have been with us forever, from civilization’s first light. Sophocles wrote about them 2,500 years ago when he had Antigone declare that there were ethical laws higher than the laws of Theban kings. P.C. Chang, who helped draft the Universal Declaration, pointed out that Confucius articulated them in ancient China. The belief that we must respect our neighbors as we would respect ourselves resides at the core of the teachings of all the major faiths of the world. – Hillary Clinton, universalist supremo.
Wow. Get a sense of humor you boob. Look at this from what an outsider might think? Why would I care what whomever might think? Im using a moniker and so are you.
Get the Pope to lobby for dog rights, I’d support that. Poor dogs.
Rights are relative. Rights are not universal. How can something embeded in the magna carta be deemed universal to those who give liberalism, and more importantly, Christianity no credence?
Sure I am pretentious and pompous, and you are not?
This lese majeste case is ridiculous.
As mention earlier, it became “tradition” to play the royal anthem in cinema, but better time and energy would be spend on questioning of whether it should be there in the first place.
Say, if there is any mob at Sanamluang again. Then someone come up with loud speaker and play royal anthem 24/7. Would those who move got caught?
IMO, this case show that the spirit of the law on “preserving respect” got lost and substitute by “tradition”. As in business term of “corporate culture”; we do it, but no one know why it was done.
It would have made more sense if lese majeste were to be slap on those who counterfeit money, with the king image and all.
Chai-Anan has been a lackey of Sondhi L since the late 1980s. I admit that he wrote a couple of good pieces in the 1970s, but he’s written a lot of rubbish since then.
You should read your own drivel as an outsider would. It is pretentious and just plain silly at times. It reads relativist to me, including the comment on human rights with rights in inverted commas.
Mr Jackson should say that he is involved in a mining project in Laos if he is going to comment on resettlement to make way for a mine. The fact that he is making money from mining in Laos, or a company mining there, is not something that he should hide from people reading his comments. Thank you Mr Hall for pointing this out.
I did not know that the Generals referred to their government as Myanmar —- the Happy country, indeed. Generals government happy = ‘country’ happy. Nicholas and Jon, very illuminating, thanks.
Observer, You make it sound like Bearak is a ground breaking journalist. There are many Zimbabwe news blogs such as kubatana.net that he could have gotten so much information from without being a martyr for cosmopolitan journalism. Drawing from Zimbawean scholar Miles Tendi, particulaly his article ‘Britain should help by staying away’,(I previously posted a link in this comment, but the spam eater appears to have digested it) what positive impact would Barry Bearak (who was released a few days ago?) have had in Zimbabwe? Informing the ‘world’ of an already dire situation by fanning the flames of what has fueled Mugabe for so long?
Jonathon Head should know better because he is a middle aged man and not Tintin.
As I say, I am not condoning the LM law, but societal law is arbitrary. I think ‘arbitrary’ law is unjust because it will always disadvantage a few inadvertantly due to the variables of circumstance. Head is now one of the few.. Although I like Rawls, I can’t see his ideas as more practical than philosopher kings in a twighlight zone.
Can you imagine a Southern Thai Muslim reporter gaining access to Washington and asking good questions?
Dog Lover, I am not advocating cultural relativism. I do not think that the situations are just and I believe that the people in them are suffocated by what is going on and I believe that many know they are being suffocated regardless of whether or not liberalism is known of or even appealing. I do not think the language of ‘rights’ is adequate for the intent of human rights. I believe that Jonathon Head should value the liberty he was born into and realise that this ideal is not an ‘option’ to many people he is surrounded by.. I’m not against activism, I am for tact and diplomacy… I would have thought confrontation in issues such as this promotes relativism, so I find your accusation ironic!
Does anyone know if there really is, or isn’t, a movement to install a republic?
Is (was) Republican a one man band?
Personally, given the nature of Thai politics and the elected politicians we have seen so far, I would have thought that such a move would be premature.
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Hands up if you oppose puppet government with strings of colonialist?
BP, Maybe you should an “Identical twins, separated at birth” theme for your blog
Taking a stand against lèse majesté
Teth: I think the worst case would be much worse that the mere replacement scenario you outlined, and therefore cannot see any point in going through the inevitable violence getting there.
Apart from differences in the respective monarchies, your comparison with Nepal is also a bit premature – wait another 60 years and get back to me.
Like it or not, the old power has an established image throughout the world, and has a reputation to uphold – would a replacement new power have those constraints?
A few of you continually hark back to the 1970’s as some sort of evidence of how bad the old power is, but you never seem concerned about putting things into proper context be referring to the mood of those times – remember it was only 1970 when the Kent State massacre occurred, and I’m sure you don’t need me to remind you of the other crimes being perpetrated in the Thai region at the time.
Here’s some ‘relativist drivel’ for you to consider:
Please tally up all the deaths which can be directly attributed by the old power, and then compare that with some of the goings on in other Asian countries, or African, or middle eastern countries.
Or make a comparison with the Iraq death tallies pre & post Saddam.
The Thaksin example makes me think your mere replacement scenario is a strong likelihood, and not just a worst case scenario.
Of course I am not happy with ‘network monarchy’, but I do think it is now premature (or too late) to go the republican route.
The situation may change after a few years under the next monarch.
For there to be any improvement, IMO, there has to be attitudinal change at both the top and bottom (and middle) of the Thai political spectrum.
If the top changes without the bottom, then your worst case will be reality, however if the bottom changes, then eventually the top will be forced to follow suit.
Hands up if you oppose puppet government with strings of colonialist?
But you must admit, BP, the scale of the shamelessness and obviousness is completely different.
Party and phuak in the Democrat south
Apologies for the shameless self-post, but it started as a comment. However, posting too many links here and writing a longish comment worries me that Firefox will crash and the post will disappear.
I have a post here.
According to Silkworm, the price is 695 Baht. It is listed as available at <a hre”http://www.asiabooks.com/browse/bookinfo.aspx?ProID=9789749511381″Asia Books.
Hands up if you oppose puppet government with strings of colonialist?
Hmm.. Military junta campaign advocating people to vote “yes” in the referendum. Sounds vaguely familiar.
An unwinnable war?
LSS:
I agree that it is important that scholars trained in Islamic Studies and knowledgeable about the comparative, historical complexities of Islam as a scriptural tradition and a living social reality join the
discussion about the situation in the Thai South. And critique the arguments advanced by other scholars. This is a badly lacking perspective so far in work on the South, particularly with regards to political Islam. So I would also encourage you to provide reviews of not only McCargo’s work, but that of others besides him, and to publish these not just here but in academic journals or other venues as well.
In that vein, are you familiar with the work of Alexander Horstmann on the Tablighi Jamaat al-Dawa movement and Southern Thailand? And if so, what are your thoughts on his arguments?
In general, it would seem to me that ideally one needs both historians of religion and anthropologists working in conversation with each other on these topics and issues regarding the Islamic framing of politics, religion, violence and history to more fully understand recent developments. And that these two perspective also need to engage with other such as experts in politics, insurgencies, terrorism, etc.
It seems to me that McCargo, along with Connors, intelligently criticize the extreme and uncontextualized analyses of terrorism scholars who buy into a war on terror framing and seek to aggressively and concretly link violence in the south to Al-Qeada and other radical movements. But they also frequently tend to over assert a political science perspective that treats religious factors as simply ideological at best and irrelevant at worst in comparison with the ‘real’ social factors of (elite) politics, policy, political culture, etc.
This debate is also found beyond the work on Thailand, for instance in John Sidel’s work on Islamism and political violence in Indonesia, in which his stand is very similar in its broad contours and approach, I would argue, to that of McCargo’s on the south. There are however appreciative but critical responses to Sidel’s work as well. As for instance in Vatikiotis’s review in the Asia Times:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IH22Ae01.html
or in a recent review of the same book in the April issue of the Far Eastern Economic Review (for which one needs a subscription to access the PDF). Comparative attention to these debates beyond Thailand might profitably benefit those thinking about the violence in the South.
The Nam Tha dam
The popularity of large dams comes from the fact that they possess massive ‘contingency funds’ at the ready to pave (read ‘pay’) the way through all beaurocratic, human rights, environmental and social justice obstacles. It is no coincidence that nearly every developed country in the world where corruption is less pervasive currently refues to continue building these monstrosities due to their extremely well documented downsides which outweigh the benefits.
The winners of the Nam Tha nation building charade are the Chinese dam developers and the Lao officials who clean up by signing off on the projects. The losers are the Lao people and their wonderful environments. It used to be the world bank and the Asian development bank who mainly funded poorly thought through dam projects but with China now loaded with funds a lot worse is to come. My sincere sympathies go out to the Lao people.
The best we can do is bring pressure to bear upon China to address it’s appaling lack of respect for human rights and the environment. Press your government to boycott the Olympic opening ceremony as this is the clearest way to send a message to Beijing that their Human rights and environmental policies simply dont cut it in the real world.
Lèse majesté and the BBC
There is a point, I’d be very interested to read these responses. I’d also be interested to know the backgrounds of these leaders. If my reaction justifies relativism, yours justifies imperialism and cultural hegemony.
I am saying is that superficial differences, which – for me – include the language of rights, intereferes and inhibits universal communication. I use a relativist argument to disprove faux universalism. You have not answered my arguments against this sort of ‘unviersalism’, only lampooned me with … ‘you pretentious blabbermouth…’
Taking a stand against lèse majesté
Does anyone know if there really is, or isn’t, a movement to install a republic?
Movement? Not that I’m aware of.
Is (was) Republican a one man band?
Probably, but there are plenty to share Republican views in Thailand. More people than you think, just like there are probably more independent thinkers in Thailand than you think.
Personally, given the nature of Thai politics and the elected politicians we have seen so far, I would have thought that such a move would be premature.
Let’s say Republicanism in Thailand has been around far longer than that. And for a reason too. Its only now seeing a sort of revival.
I see you are still up to your old tricks of accrediting HMK inappropriately. Perhaps it would surprise you then that what is probably the strongest Republican ‘movement’ in Thai history was probably after 1976.
If Thailand were to follow the path of Nepal, the worst case scenario is the replacement of one clique/cabal with another, so I don’t see how Republicanism is “premature” at all. Really, what is the new power going to do that the old one hasn’t? Or, what is the old power doing that the new won’t be able to do?
Lèse majesté and the BBC
Seems I struck a nerve. Your comments still are read by me as being a justification for cultural relativism and the more you rant, the more it seems so and the sillier it sounds. I don’t know much about Clinton – not someone I hold out for pearls of wisdom but are you using her to support your position or as an example of universalism? Of course, I am familiar with Berlin. But univeralism does have an intellectual basis (as does cultural relativism on this issue). I suppose I could quote LKY, Mahathir and other relativatists on Asian Values and human rights and the responses they got from other Asian leaders who think that there is something in a notion of human rights that matter to people facing oppression. No point I guess.
Lèse majesté and the BBC
I thought I better respond to…’it reads relativist to me’ I don’t know how to respond to that one. You win! I believe in a universal nature, but the way universality is wielded by people who can write ‘it reads relativist to me’, is just the same as someone saying ‘damn looks like a homo… sechsual’ in Alabama.
If you are a masochist Dog Lover, I suggest you checkout another pompous baboon named Isaiah Berlin. He didn’t have anything to hide by using a moniker…
Lèse majesté and the BBC
Here is a great quote for you Dog Lover:
Because human rights transcend individual regimes and customs. The beliefs inscribed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were not invented 50 years ago. They are not the work of a single culture or country. They have been with us forever, from civilization’s first light. Sophocles wrote about them 2,500 years ago when he had Antigone declare that there were ethical laws higher than the laws of Theban kings. P.C. Chang, who helped draft the Universal Declaration, pointed out that Confucius articulated them in ancient China. The belief that we must respect our neighbors as we would respect ourselves resides at the core of the teachings of all the major faiths of the world. – Hillary Clinton, universalist supremo.
Wow. Get a sense of humor you boob. Look at this from what an outsider might think? Why would I care what whomever might think? Im using a moniker and so are you.
Get the Pope to lobby for dog rights, I’d support that. Poor dogs.
Lèse majesté and the BBC
Dog Lover, plain silly? Oh.
Rights are relative. Rights are not universal. How can something embeded in the magna carta be deemed universal to those who give liberalism, and more importantly, Christianity no credence?
Sure I am pretentious and pompous, and you are not?
Taking a stand against lèse majesté
This lese majeste case is ridiculous.
As mention earlier, it became “tradition” to play the royal anthem in cinema, but better time and energy would be spend on questioning of whether it should be there in the first place.
Say, if there is any mob at Sanamluang again. Then someone come up with loud speaker and play royal anthem 24/7. Would those who move got caught?
IMO, this case show that the spirit of the law on “preserving respect” got lost and substitute by “tradition”. As in business term of “corporate culture”; we do it, but no one know why it was done.
It would have made more sense if lese majeste were to be slap on those who counterfeit money, with the king image and all.
Taking a stand against lèse majesté
Chai-Anan has been a lackey of Sondhi L since the late 1980s. I admit that he wrote a couple of good pieces in the 1970s, but he’s written a lot of rubbish since then.
Lèse majesté and the BBC
You should read your own drivel as an outsider would. It is pretentious and just plain silly at times. It reads relativist to me, including the comment on human rights with rights in inverted commas.
The Lao resettlement controversy
Conflict of interest
Mr Jackson should say that he is involved in a mining project in Laos if he is going to comment on resettlement to make way for a mine. The fact that he is making money from mining in Laos, or a company mining there, is not something that he should hide from people reading his comments. Thank you Mr Hall for pointing this out.
DFID man in Burma
I did not know that the Generals referred to their government as Myanmar —- the Happy country, indeed. Generals government happy = ‘country’ happy. Nicholas and Jon, very illuminating, thanks.
Lèse majesté and the BBC
Observer, You make it sound like Bearak is a ground breaking journalist. There are many Zimbabwe news blogs such as kubatana.net that he could have gotten so much information from without being a martyr for cosmopolitan journalism. Drawing from Zimbawean scholar Miles Tendi, particulaly his article ‘Britain should help by staying away’,(I previously posted a link in this comment, but the spam eater appears to have digested it) what positive impact would Barry Bearak (who was released a few days ago?) have had in Zimbabwe? Informing the ‘world’ of an already dire situation by fanning the flames of what has fueled Mugabe for so long?
Jonathon Head should know better because he is a middle aged man and not Tintin.
As I say, I am not condoning the LM law, but societal law is arbitrary. I think ‘arbitrary’ law is unjust because it will always disadvantage a few inadvertantly due to the variables of circumstance. Head is now one of the few.. Although I like Rawls, I can’t see his ideas as more practical than philosopher kings in a twighlight zone.
Can you imagine a Southern Thai Muslim reporter gaining access to Washington and asking good questions?
Dog Lover, I am not advocating cultural relativism. I do not think that the situations are just and I believe that the people in them are suffocated by what is going on and I believe that many know they are being suffocated regardless of whether or not liberalism is known of or even appealing. I do not think the language of ‘rights’ is adequate for the intent of human rights. I believe that Jonathon Head should value the liberty he was born into and realise that this ideal is not an ‘option’ to many people he is surrounded by.. I’m not against activism, I am for tact and diplomacy… I would have thought confrontation in issues such as this promotes relativism, so I find your accusation ironic!
Taking a stand against lèse majesté
Does anyone know if there really is, or isn’t, a movement to install a republic?
Is (was) Republican a one man band?
Personally, given the nature of Thai politics and the elected politicians we have seen so far, I would have thought that such a move would be premature.