If you put little photos of lungs with asbestos related disease after asbestos exposure on the asbestos like the frightening photos on cigarettes you see at 7-11, wouldn’t that do the trick, democratically speaking that is. A house needs a roof and asbestos seems to be about the only option for poor people. Siam Cement is only giving the poor people what they want when it sells them this asbestos.
I thought about this while staring at the asbestos roof of my house one time. At least the ceiling protects the inside, I guess. I remember in about 1985 as a graduate student at an American university, we were all evacuated and then men with spacesuit like clothing came in to remove the asbestos in the ceiling material. The asbestos lawsuits shook the insurance industry, so maybe it’s overkill.
Take three situations, for instance: 1. A worker cutting the stuff, creating and inhaling dust regularly, 2. A poor person who builds a house out of the stuff (typical 200,000 baht little cement brick houses in rural areas do not use upscale ceramic roofing) and the asbestos is not cut off from the living area by a ceiling, 3. asbestos cut off from the living area by a ceiling, my situation, seems like you have much different levels of risk here.
Ungrounded electricity is probably a much more dangerous risk factor, for example electrical fans on the floor with people walking around in the water after a sudden flood. Unmarked road construction? The younger brother of the husband of the cousin of my wife, at age 17 ran off the road driving home from the internet cafe, into an unmarked road construction and got a rebar through his eyesocket and skull. No one found negligent, apparently. Arc welding in the rain, not a song. Asbestos is probably just the tip of the undocumented iceberg.
Hmm, this kind of scares me. I have never thought about this, living in Bangkok near a new development project… Time that Thailand does something about it. Why not ban it completely like in the western world?
Teth: “Funny how he seemed to side with the rioters initially.” He’s still ‘siding’ with them. (supporting them, & deeply sympathetic & committed to their cause) But he’s made it very clear all through his time as Dalai Lama that he doesn’t support violence. And he doesn’t have any objection to the Chinese having the Olympics. The ’cause’ of the Tibetan people is not that the Chinese have been given the Olympics. It’s their desire to stop the Chinese perpetration of genocide and the taking away of their civil rights. They chose this time to demonstrate because the eyes of the world are favorably turned to China, despite the fact that they’ve broken their promise to improve Human Rights ( a condition of getting the Olympics). It’s really unfortunate that the young monks who have never known the DL have not listened to the older ones. It’s a battle they can’t possibly win through violence. I like your ‘militant animal rights’ analogy. (Fighting for peace is like f-ing for virginity!)But the Tibetans still get my support, although not for the violence (look what the Chinese have done to them since the 50s). I think the Chinese are being really stupid in accusing the DL of initiating the riots. They know he didn’t, so they are just being manipulative. And by doing this they’re painting themselves into a corner, as far as using him as a negotiator goes. And they do need a negotiator.
Ashley, thanks for the update on the twins. I had gotten my information from internet news sources and an individual who lives in the area.
My source told me that he had been physically present when Johnny and Luther were handed over to the SPDC, with onlookers clapping and breathing a collective sigh of relief.
If the Chinese were 21st century people they would let him go back and be a leader to his people. He could very well be the negotiator to save the Tibetans & their culture, & within the context of contemporary Tibet: advantages for both sides. He is a realist and a peacemaker, AND a Buddhist.
Funny how he seemed to side with the rioters initially. I know this is a side issue, but regardless of China’s role in Tibet, its rather clear that Tibetan protesters were anything but peaceful, riotous, in fact. This is understandable, but the way some in the West have decided to ignore this fact and portray China as the all-evil oppressor has totally turned me against those “Free Tibet” protesters who are stirring up anti-Chinese hatred. To me, they are similar to militant animal rights activists, their cause can be reasonable, but their methods and manipulations are not.
Yes, the DL would be a great mediator and I’m wondering why the usually pragmatic Chinese have not embraced him as a solution…
Re. ‘God’s Army’ – extracts from Ashley South, ‘States of Conflict: Ethnic Politics in Burma’ [Routledge 2008 – in press – p.188]:
“Locally-centered millenarian sects – led by charismatic figures, often credited with occult powers – have continued to emerge among Karen communities in crises. Among the most well-known of these in the modern period have been Telecon and Leke cults. Both of these millenarian, syncertic Buddhist-animist groups await a Karen saviour, who will lead the people in a spiritual and social – and perhaps, political – revival.
[…]
God’s Army: Millenarian tendencies have also emerged in Karen communities further to the South, in Tenasserim Division (KNLA Fourth Brigade). ‘God’s Army’ – or ‘The Soldiers of the Holy Mountain’ – was formed in the immediate aftermath of the major Tatmadaw offensive against the KNU, in February 1997. Following the collapse of the Kaw Thoo Lei forces, villagers and KNLA remnants in the Htee Hta-Mor Hta area rallied around two twelve year old twins – Johnny and Luther Htoo – who led their followers to some surprising, if minor victories, in armed clashes with the invading forces.
Guided – or manipulated – by local Karen elders, the twins and their 200-strong, rag-tag militia enjoyed some notoriety in the Thai and international media. However, God’s Army eventually broke-up, under pressure from the Thai authorities, following a bloody siege of a hospital in Ratchaburi (Thailand) in January 2000. This incident was blamed on God’s Army, but was in fact instigated by the shadowy Vigorous Burmese Student Warriors (VBSW), whose members had taken refuge with the twins and their followers, before taking-over the hospital (and ultimately being killed by the Thai security forces).
Following their surrender to the Thai authorities in 2000, the Htoo twins were quietly settled at Don Yang refugee camp, near Sangkhlaburi, where they later married and had children of their own. In June 2006, Johnny returned to Burma, having apparently been tricked into leaving Don Yang refugee camp, by government intelligence operatives. By this time, Saw Shwe Bya, one of the original adult leaders of God’s Army had joined forces with the Tatmadaw, and established a ‘Karen Peace Group’ near Myitta, on the Tenasserim River.”
In January, Duncan McCargo gave a talk at ISEAS, promising to answer the question, “What’s really happening in Southern Thailand.” His answer includes the role of religion, and his paper would make interesting complementary reading in this thread. The link is
Paul Handley writes: Snarls: according to the government’s official publications for the event, the king was at Wat Boworn over 22.10-5.11.56. As I found in researching the book, there is a wealth of inaccurate and imprecise info about the king – like specific dates and locations, harmless but still in error – in both government and non-government publications.
This is absolutely correct. The King was ordained for 15 days between 22 October 1956 and 5 November 1956.
The number of days he stayed in monkhood – 15 – was not accidental.
It was the same duration Chulalongkorn was ordained in 1873.
In fact this whole episode – Bhumibol ordained, Sirikit appointed regent, after which her name was added with the word “nat” (meaing “р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Юр╕╢р╣Ир╕З”) – were all “pure Chulalongkorn”. (Chulalongkorn was the first king of the Bangkok era to be ordained during his reign, the first to appoint his wife regent, the first to add “nat” to his wife name.)
It’s what I call (borrowing a phrase from Ben Batson) a “return to Chlalongkorn” strategy.
See my article (in Thai only, sorry) р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ц” р╣Гр╕Щ “р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕гр╕бр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕╡р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ц” first published in Faw Diew Kan (3:3, July-September 2005) or on by blog at http://somsakwork.blogspot.com/2006/09/blog-post_5358.html
Here’s the relevant passage I describe this “Return to Chulalongkorn” strategy.
thanks for the info Charles, I didn’t expect good news,
I knew about Chinese support, but the French.
and to think the French president Sarkozy is talking about boycotting the opening ceremony of the Olympics because of the Chinese treatment of minority Tibetans.
Thank you for the comments.
I think that a lot of misunderstandings concerning what is going on down south lies in the idea that we have basically one conflict that is usually described as conflict between state and insurgents (or whatever other names are used). In my understanding we have multiple conflicts which are partly related, partly quite independend from each other. That is the reason why I find it crucial to compare the level of violence in the South with violence in Thailand in general. Concerning the high level of violence, my hypothesis is that it results from “re-feudalization”, whereby social structurers are dissolved leaving only loose networks. The effect is a very low level of social integration and thus of both social- and self-control.
You certainly have a very valid point with the argument that we do not have a “Sons of Issan” movement. So even though we do find many similarities with Thailand in general (and I guess Southeast Asia in general), there are a few special issues to be considered while discussing the south. Unfortunately, even though I jave some informed guesses, I do not as yet know what these really are,
Just as a p.s.: What Robb defines as “open source warfare” has been described already by Clausewitz.
Persecution of christians in Burma is well documented, so it’s probable that after the publicity of their capture (more on that below) died down, they were executed. The SPDC isn’t known for taking very many prisoners.
The twins were actually captured by Thai police and military 200 or so yards inside Thailand.
It’s my understanding that they were then immediately turned over to SPDC troops, who were waiting just a few hundred yards away.
The Thai authorities were more than happy to turn them over to the SPDC for quick and rough justice because the God’s Army was accused of attacking Thai’s and fellow Karenni’s inside Thailand – banditry.
If the Thai’s had held them, they were afraid – and rightly so – that Christian groups and the Western media would have screamed for mercy for them.
Much easier to just frog march them two hundred yards back into Burma and let the SPDC deal with them.
What isn’t generally known to the outside world is that the Thai military and intelligence have a quiet understanding with the SPDC, due to mutual business dealings.
Timber, gold, gems and other commodities ( oh yeah, drugs, too) are smuggled across the border.
In addition, the SPDC, with French help, are putting in an oil pipeline across Karen territory, and then into Thailand.
The SPDC is also – and again, with French assistance – damming up large areas in Karen territory.
The Karens are being forced from their ancient lands, and into refugee camps in Thailand.
The only ones helping the refugees are Christian missionary and aid groups. The U.N. aid is a joke, most of the money being spent on offices, villas and limos.
I find interesting the relationship between Christian missionaries and Karen nationalism. From what I can gather the long connection between Protestant Christian missionaries and the Karen people seems to have led to continual sympathy and support from American Christians and this has led in recent times to some armed help from keen individuals.
I saw a fascinating documentary about 10 years on the the God’s Army led by the charismatic chain smoking twins Luther and Johnny, who seem to have been particularly influenced by the particular Old Testament theology of Seventh Day Adventist missionaries.
They were only about 10-11 years old at that time . They certainly looked like mini-Rambos. Apparently they surrended to the Burmese military in July 2006. I be interested if anyone knows their current fate.
it is worthy of taking note of WCS-Burma and Rabinowitz’s work, especially their nature conservation strategies in kachin state, northern burma. there has been some pieces published on this topic critically examining their work, most recently a review of rabinowitz’s new book in irrawaddy.
the way WCS operates in burma, or how conservation as a process unfolds in non-democratic countries, says more about ‘conservation’ than the government and military elite that co-opt it.
From The Nation, Nov 9, 2005, a year before your Panda Porn Post: “Hundreds turned out to celebrate the wedding of two giant pandas at [Chiangmai] Zoo Wednesday. Officials are planning to have the two pandas … start mating. But the zoo wanted them to be married first. To celebrate the day, two mascots dressed as pandas and took the vows on behalf of the bears”. One wonders if the same hundreds of people turned up to watch the porn, too. But this public morality, of having the animals married, is interesting in itself. Contemporary identity work is deeply entangled with the dynamics of official recognition. One example from beyond the zoo, from a lowland peasant area of Chiangmai Province in northern Thailand concerns the revival of a blessing ceremony aimed at securing village prosperity, where a male and a female buffalo are married. As it was reported in a national newspaper in early June, 2004, the ceremony “was one of the village’s long-standing traditional events before it faded away for a long time, only to be revived about four years ago.” The revived event was to be “presided over by the sheriff and a provincial-livestock official [and] the marriage will also be registered” (The Nation, June 9, 2004). That is, even explicitly local and un-modern practices involve agents of the state and seek state-legitimation through registration. Maybe the zoo can rely on the nearest OBoTo office to sponsor weddings as the preservation of culture.
Paul Handley: Thanks for your response, & for making the revised paper freely available. When you do place it on another site, I’d be very grateful (& I’m sure others would) if you’d let us know – more discussion may open up.
Re. my comment concerning HMK at Wat Boworn: I haven’t seen any full dates in English-language references to this, prior to the recent one I mentioned. The effect of this has been an impression that he spent a substantial amount of time engaged in religious study, so I was quite amazed when you revealed the actual length of time in TKNS, as I’m sure many people were. Such “inaccurate and imprecise information” may be harmless, as you state, but it does rather contribute to the development of the (misleading) image.
I’ve just checked the 10 references in Stevenson, William: ‘The Revolutionary King,’ which, because it was apparently written at the King’s request, and with his cooperation, & also because of its often sycophantic tone, reads IMO like a Press Release. Although WS does once mention the date of his entry to the monastic life, he doesn’t give the exit date. On page 128 he states, ” His monastic retreat was brief, but he discovered the mind could travel great distances in what he would have previously called the short span of a month.”
One wonders whether this is merely inaccurate & imprecise, or whether it is in fact deliberate. It’s certainly not in line with conventional standards of research for biographical writing.
Fortunately, in your own work you have been as meticulous in regard to such matters as Stevenson has been sloppy, and this is one of the many virtues of TKNS which have ensured that it will be used as a reference by serious scholars & journalists, whereas it may be that Stevenson’s book will be regarded as a bit of a joke. This is of course furthered by what I think of as the ‘Bumper, Boy’s Own’ nature of Stevenson’s work, which comes from the use of irritatingly repetitive devices such as the nicknames ( “Old Gran”, “Lek”, “Nan”), the pretentious “Far-From-Worry” (the Hua Hin palace), “Palace of Lotus Ponds” (Old Gran’s residence behind Siam Paragon), “Lords of Life River” (the Chaophraya), and the very strange ‘Japanese master-spy’ theme, which is developed without a shred of evidence.
One thing I especially appreciate about your work, which I find is almost totally ignored by other Western journalists, is that you do discuss the degree to which the supernatural is a normal influence in daily life, including very important decision-making by high officials. Where it does emerge in the Western press, it is usually in a sensational context, e.g. the magic monk Luang Por Khun’s statement to the government before the Drug War, which had the effect of validating & sanctioning the extra-judicial killings of suspects, which has been widely reported. Stevenson’s work is saturated in magic, but it could be argued that it is to quite a large extent – not always, however – used to give the impression that HMK really does have magic powers, &, e.g., that he communicates with the people through extra-sensory means, rather than to intelligently discuss magico-religeous belief as a social, especially political, phenomenon. In his favour, he does show that HMK rather cleverly used the belief in magic, as a powerful manipulative device against the Establishment in the annual allegiance rituals in Wat Phra Khaew.
While I’ve been writing this post, I’ve had BBC World playing on my TV. 2 major news items have been the highly theatrical visit of the new French President to UK, and the shoddily stage-managed visit of the selected foreign journalists to Tibet. It’s interesting to see once again the differences between Asian and European ways of attempting to repair damage. They don’t seem to change.
In the middle of all this, the Dalai Lama was shown, speaking on the move. “It’s time: I think the Chinese Government, the officials, must accept reality,” he said. “In any case we are 21st century. Pretending or lies cannot work.” Huzzah!!!! The dear old Dalai Lama once again shows himself to be a truly modern person, although the inheritor and guardian of ancient tradition. If he’d said that 10 years ago, everyone would have said, “Well done! The poor old Dalai Lama’s said a Good Thing again. Let’s give him another consolation prize.” But today, in the age of mobile phones that can take photographs and videos & send them immediately to virtually anywhere, of almost universally available internet, of YouTube, of satellite television that can be received & transmitted in the Hindu Kush, the meaning of his words is so different. We can all SEE the evidence, not only through the mainstream channels, but also via the new ‘folk media,’ and it’s getting very hard for the fascists to control. And so their words have less power. It’s undeniable: pretending or lies cannot work. While the Chinese are still living in the 50s, rigidly ‘laying down the law,’ ridiculously trying to push their mendacious version of events, he’s been absolutely forthright & honest: no attempts to cover up anything, no denials, no lies, no lack of understanding or compassion, and he hasn’t compromised his fundamental ideals.
If the Chinese were 21st century people they would let him go back and be a leader to his people. He could very well be the negotiator to save the Tibetans & their culture, & within the context of contemporary Tibet: advantages for both sides. He is a realist and a peacemaker, AND a Buddhist. The Thai establishment could learn a lot from him. What a pity he, as a Buddhist leader, did not mentor HMK. (Significant Trivia Dept: The D.L. & HMK are believed to be incarnations of the same deity.)
re: hrk
In your previous comment, you make several valid points, and I think we have more points in agreement than we do in disgreement. However, I would like address some arguements that you have made.
You wrote:
Looking at the conflict empirically the main fact is the extremely low level of organisation of those involved in it … Often one speaks of “the state”. In the south those organisations associated to the state like the administration, military, police etc. are strongly factionalized, with each faction and clique following its own agendas and interests as well as associating with others. The “movement” is probably as factionalized. It can even be doubted whether such a “movement” exists. It seems far more probable that very loosely linked small groups and individuals are violent and link this on an ideological level to wider issues like establishing an independent Islamic state etc. Thus, the “movement” is more of a virtual kind.
As I have argued before, I agree with you that a monolithic organization of “supervillians” masterminding events in the South doesn’t exist. Indeed, the loosely linked groups of the insurgency are some of the first examples of true “fourth generation warfare” or as John Robb terms it “Open Source Warfare”. Robb argues that modern day insurgents are organizing themselves more along the lines of open source software communities; first a small core group establishes a “source code”, i.e. a certain ideology that defines an enemy and a goal, and then the group opens the code to the larger community to allow various small groups and individuals to pool their talent to upgrade and employ the code through their own knowledge and resources. And of course, the larger community may contribute from a sense of altruism or they may be more mercenary in their motives.
On the previous point, we agree; however, when you go on to state that:
This has the big advantage that neither policies nor visions, strategies or ideologies have to be defined. A sound analysis of Islamic doctrine does therefore not help to clarify matters, and it makes a “battle of ideas” rather complicated. I guess that neither the “state” nor the ”movement” have much of ideas to battle about.
I must disagree. As mentioned before, “open source warfare” requires an original “source code,” and while there are many facets to the situation in the South, you must concede that many of them are reflected with, at least, the rhetoric of sacred Islamic defensive war. If the old platitude that the insurgents are just a bunch of bored teens looking for kicks were true, their “gangs” would have appellations such as “the Jets” and “the Sharks”. Instead, they align themselves into cliques with names such as the “Mujahideen Pattani Movement” (BNP), the “Islamic Mujahideen Movement of Patani” (GMIP), and the “Mujahideen Islamic Pattani Group National Revolution Front” (BRN). Many incidents in the South have been situated around pondok schools and mosques. Can you see the theme here? Again, I reiterate that it is just one element, but I argue that it an integral part of the “source code” that is ignored at one’s peril.
Furthermore, I find your violence as an expression of power differential argument to be a bit too naive for my liking. ( Besides, what’s so wrong with “individualism and egocentric personal enrichment,” this Agorist/Anarcho-capitalist asks?) In short, if violence for violence’s sake could provide enough fuel to support a prolonged insurgency, then why, in this post-Communist age, is there not a group known as the “Sons of Issan” ploting to bomb the district office at amphoe Ban Phai, in Khon Kaen? I maintain that an insurgency must be started with an ideology that allows for violent resistance to be part of it’s Robbian “source code”. The code may mutate and change over the course of time, as insurgents alter it to their own needs and agendas; however, if enough of the original source is removed or altered, than the insurgency will subside.
Finally, I agree with you that an understanding Pattani “pan-nationalism” is also useful. Your conclusion is also correct, in that, at least, you, Ji, and I agree.
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Emotional tourism
… and the trial of whom (along with three others), coincidentally, is still in the Court of First Instance:
Ninety-one judges & 14 years not to complete a trial; A 14-year trial and alleged police set-up
Asbestos in Thailand
If you put little photos of lungs with asbestos related disease after asbestos exposure on the asbestos like the frightening photos on cigarettes you see at 7-11, wouldn’t that do the trick, democratically speaking that is. A house needs a roof and asbestos seems to be about the only option for poor people. Siam Cement is only giving the poor people what they want when it sells them this asbestos.
Asbestos in Thailand
I thought about this while staring at the asbestos roof of my house one time. At least the ceiling protects the inside, I guess. I remember in about 1985 as a graduate student at an American university, we were all evacuated and then men with spacesuit like clothing came in to remove the asbestos in the ceiling material. The asbestos lawsuits shook the insurance industry, so maybe it’s overkill.
Take three situations, for instance: 1. A worker cutting the stuff, creating and inhaling dust regularly, 2. A poor person who builds a house out of the stuff (typical 200,000 baht little cement brick houses in rural areas do not use upscale ceramic roofing) and the asbestos is not cut off from the living area by a ceiling, 3. asbestos cut off from the living area by a ceiling, my situation, seems like you have much different levels of risk here.
Ungrounded electricity is probably a much more dangerous risk factor, for example electrical fans on the floor with people walking around in the water after a sudden flood. Unmarked road construction? The younger brother of the husband of the cousin of my wife, at age 17 ran off the road driving home from the internet cafe, into an unmarked road construction and got a rebar through his eyesocket and skull. No one found negligent, apparently. Arc welding in the rain, not a song. Asbestos is probably just the tip of the undocumented iceberg.
Alan Rabinowitz in The Myanmar Times
I’d be interested. Definitely.
Asbestos in Thailand
Hmm, this kind of scares me. I have never thought about this, living in Bangkok near a new development project… Time that Thailand does something about it. Why not ban it completely like in the western world?
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Teth: “Funny how he seemed to side with the rioters initially.” He’s still ‘siding’ with them. (supporting them, & deeply sympathetic & committed to their cause) But he’s made it very clear all through his time as Dalai Lama that he doesn’t support violence. And he doesn’t have any objection to the Chinese having the Olympics. The ’cause’ of the Tibetan people is not that the Chinese have been given the Olympics. It’s their desire to stop the Chinese perpetration of genocide and the taking away of their civil rights. They chose this time to demonstrate because the eyes of the world are favorably turned to China, despite the fact that they’ve broken their promise to improve Human Rights ( a condition of getting the Olympics). It’s really unfortunate that the young monks who have never known the DL have not listened to the older ones. It’s a battle they can’t possibly win through violence. I like your ‘militant animal rights’ analogy. (Fighting for peace is like f-ing for virginity!)But the Tibetans still get my support, although not for the violence (look what the Chinese have done to them since the 50s). I think the Chinese are being really stupid in accusing the DL of initiating the riots. They know he didn’t, so they are just being manipulative. And by doing this they’re painting themselves into a corner, as far as using him as a negotiator goes. And they do need a negotiator.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Ashley, thanks for the update on the twins. I had gotten my information from internet news sources and an individual who lives in the area.
My source told me that he had been physically present when Johnny and Luther were handed over to the SPDC, with onlookers clapping and breathing a collective sigh of relief.
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
If the Chinese were 21st century people they would let him go back and be a leader to his people. He could very well be the negotiator to save the Tibetans & their culture, & within the context of contemporary Tibet: advantages for both sides. He is a realist and a peacemaker, AND a Buddhist.
Funny how he seemed to side with the rioters initially. I know this is a side issue, but regardless of China’s role in Tibet, its rather clear that Tibetan protesters were anything but peaceful, riotous, in fact. This is understandable, but the way some in the West have decided to ignore this fact and portray China as the all-evil oppressor has totally turned me against those “Free Tibet” protesters who are stirring up anti-Chinese hatred. To me, they are similar to militant animal rights activists, their cause can be reasonable, but their methods and manipulations are not.
Yes, the DL would be a great mediator and I’m wondering why the usually pragmatic Chinese have not embraced him as a solution…
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Re. ‘God’s Army’ – extracts from Ashley South, ‘States of Conflict: Ethnic Politics in Burma’ [Routledge 2008 – in press – p.188]:
“Locally-centered millenarian sects – led by charismatic figures, often credited with occult powers – have continued to emerge among Karen communities in crises. Among the most well-known of these in the modern period have been Telecon and Leke cults. Both of these millenarian, syncertic Buddhist-animist groups await a Karen saviour, who will lead the people in a spiritual and social – and perhaps, political – revival.
[…]
God’s Army: Millenarian tendencies have also emerged in Karen communities further to the South, in Tenasserim Division (KNLA Fourth Brigade). ‘God’s Army’ – or ‘The Soldiers of the Holy Mountain’ – was formed in the immediate aftermath of the major Tatmadaw offensive against the KNU, in February 1997. Following the collapse of the Kaw Thoo Lei forces, villagers and KNLA remnants in the Htee Hta-Mor Hta area rallied around two twelve year old twins – Johnny and Luther Htoo – who led their followers to some surprising, if minor victories, in armed clashes with the invading forces.
Guided – or manipulated – by local Karen elders, the twins and their 200-strong, rag-tag militia enjoyed some notoriety in the Thai and international media. However, God’s Army eventually broke-up, under pressure from the Thai authorities, following a bloody siege of a hospital in Ratchaburi (Thailand) in January 2000. This incident was blamed on God’s Army, but was in fact instigated by the shadowy Vigorous Burmese Student Warriors (VBSW), whose members had taken refuge with the twins and their followers, before taking-over the hospital (and ultimately being killed by the Thai security forces).
Following their surrender to the Thai authorities in 2000, the Htoo twins were quietly settled at Don Yang refugee camp, near Sangkhlaburi, where they later married and had children of their own. In June 2006, Johnny returned to Burma, having apparently been tricked into leaving Don Yang refugee camp, by government intelligence operatives. By this time, Saw Shwe Bya, one of the original adult leaders of God’s Army had joined forces with the Tatmadaw, and established a ‘Karen Peace Group’ near Myitta, on the Tenasserim River.”
An unwinnable war?
In January, Duncan McCargo gave a talk at ISEAS, promising to answer the question, “What’s really happening in Southern Thailand.” His answer includes the role of religion, and his paper would make interesting complementary reading in this thread. The link is
http://www.iseas.edu.sg/rof08/s6_duncan.pdf
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Paul Handley writes:
Snarls: according to the government’s official publications for the event, the king was at Wat Boworn over 22.10-5.11.56. As I found in researching the book, there is a wealth of inaccurate and imprecise info about the king – like specific dates and locations, harmless but still in error – in both government and non-government publications.
This is absolutely correct. The King was ordained for 15 days between 22 October 1956 and 5 November 1956.
The number of days he stayed in monkhood – 15 – was not accidental.
It was the same duration Chulalongkorn was ordained in 1873.
In fact this whole episode – Bhumibol ordained, Sirikit appointed regent, after which her name was added with the word “nat” (meaing “р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Юр╕╢р╣Ир╕З”) – were all “pure Chulalongkorn”. (Chulalongkorn was the first king of the Bangkok era to be ordained during his reign, the first to appoint his wife regent, the first to add “nat” to his wife name.)
It’s what I call (borrowing a phrase from Ben Batson) a “return to Chlalongkorn” strategy.
See my article (in Thai only, sorry) р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ц” р╣Гр╕Щ “р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕гр╕бр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕╡р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ц” first published in Faw Diew Kan (3:3, July-September 2005) or on by blog at
http://somsakwork.blogspot.com/2006/09/blog-post_5358.html
Here’s the relevant passage I describe this “Return to Chulalongkorn” strategy.
р╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ьр╕б р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Др╕зр╕гр╕бр╕нр╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕╡р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕кр╕│р╣Ар╕гр╣Зр╕Ир╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕Йр╕ер╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕Щр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Юр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ц” р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Гр╕Кр╣Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕│р╕Хр╕▓р╕б “р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Юр╕Ур╕╡” р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕Ур╕░р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕б “р╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Др╕Ыр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Х” (Return to Chulalongkorn) р╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Чр╕│р╕нр╕░р╣Др╕гр╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Х р╣Ар╕Др╕вр╕Чр╕│ р╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕бр╕▒р╕вр╕Хр╣Йр╕Щр╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Ч р╣Ар╕Др╕вр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕бр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ(р╣Ч) (р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕З р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕Ър╕зр╕Кр╕Вр╕Ур╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕│р╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Х р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣Мр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕кр╕бр╕▒р╕вр╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Юр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Др╕вр╕Чр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╣Гр╕Щр╕Ыр╕╡ р╣Тр╣Фр╣Ср╣Ц р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓ р╣Ср╣Х р╕зр╕▒р╕Щ р╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ир╕│р╕Щр╕зр╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕лр╕ер╕зр╕Зр╕Ыр╕▒р╕Ир╕Ир╕╕р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щр╕Ир╕░р╕Чр╕гр╕Зр╕Ьр╕Щр╕зр╕К) р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╕┤р╕Шр╕╡р╕Яр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Яр╕╣р╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Щр╕░р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╕вр╕гр╕Хр╕┤р╕вр╕ир╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щр╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Кр╣Ир╕зр╕Зр╕Хр╕Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕│р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕зр╕┤р╕Бр╕др╕Хр╕┤ р╕Бр╕гр╕Ур╕╡р╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Ч р╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Ыр╕▒р╕Нр╕лр╕▓р╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕кр╕│р╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Ц р╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕Ур╕╡р╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Ыр╕▒р╕Ир╕Ир╕╕р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щр╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Кр╣Ир╕зр╕Зр╕Хр╕Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕│р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Тр╣Фр╣Чр╣Х р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕ер╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕вр╣Мр╕Вр╕нр╕З р╕г.р╣Ч р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Чр╕│р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╣Гр╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╕нр╕Ъ р╣Тр╣Р р╕Ыр╕╡ (р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕▒р╕Ър╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Цр╕▓р╕зр╕гр╣Гр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕гр╕░р╕лр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Ыр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Ыр╕╡ р╣Тр╣Фр╣Чр╣Ч р╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Ыр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Ыр╕╡ р╣Тр╣Фр╣Щр╣Ф)
Volunteering to fight in Burma
thanks for the info Charles, I didn’t expect good news,
I knew about Chinese support, but the French.
and to think the French president Sarkozy is talking about boycotting the opening ceremony of the Olympics because of the Chinese treatment of minority Tibetans.
smells to me of hypocrisy?
An unwinnable war?
Thank you for the comments.
I think that a lot of misunderstandings concerning what is going on down south lies in the idea that we have basically one conflict that is usually described as conflict between state and insurgents (or whatever other names are used). In my understanding we have multiple conflicts which are partly related, partly quite independend from each other. That is the reason why I find it crucial to compare the level of violence in the South with violence in Thailand in general. Concerning the high level of violence, my hypothesis is that it results from “re-feudalization”, whereby social structurers are dissolved leaving only loose networks. The effect is a very low level of social integration and thus of both social- and self-control.
You certainly have a very valid point with the argument that we do not have a “Sons of Issan” movement. So even though we do find many similarities with Thailand in general (and I guess Southeast Asia in general), there are a few special issues to be considered while discussing the south. Unfortunately, even though I jave some informed guesses, I do not as yet know what these really are,
Just as a p.s.: What Robb defines as “open source warfare” has been described already by Clausewitz.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Persecution of christians in Burma is well documented, so it’s probable that after the publicity of their capture (more on that below) died down, they were executed. The SPDC isn’t known for taking very many prisoners.
The twins were actually captured by Thai police and military 200 or so yards inside Thailand.
It’s my understanding that they were then immediately turned over to SPDC troops, who were waiting just a few hundred yards away.
The Thai authorities were more than happy to turn them over to the SPDC for quick and rough justice because the God’s Army was accused of attacking Thai’s and fellow Karenni’s inside Thailand – banditry.
If the Thai’s had held them, they were afraid – and rightly so – that Christian groups and the Western media would have screamed for mercy for them.
Much easier to just frog march them two hundred yards back into Burma and let the SPDC deal with them.
What isn’t generally known to the outside world is that the Thai military and intelligence have a quiet understanding with the SPDC, due to mutual business dealings.
Timber, gold, gems and other commodities ( oh yeah, drugs, too) are smuggled across the border.
In addition, the SPDC, with French help, are putting in an oil pipeline across Karen territory, and then into Thailand.
The SPDC is also – and again, with French assistance – damming up large areas in Karen territory.
The Karens are being forced from their ancient lands, and into refugee camps in Thailand.
The only ones helping the refugees are Christian missionary and aid groups. The U.N. aid is a joke, most of the money being spent on offices, villas and limos.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
I find interesting the relationship between Christian missionaries and Karen nationalism. From what I can gather the long connection between Protestant Christian missionaries and the Karen people seems to have led to continual sympathy and support from American Christians and this has led in recent times to some armed help from keen individuals.
I saw a fascinating documentary about 10 years on the the God’s Army led by the charismatic chain smoking twins Luther and Johnny, who seem to have been particularly influenced by the particular Old Testament theology of Seventh Day Adventist missionaries.
They were only about 10-11 years old at that time . They certainly looked like mini-Rambos. Apparently they surrended to the Burmese military in July 2006. I be interested if anyone knows their current fate.
Alan Rabinowitz in The Myanmar Times
it is worthy of taking note of WCS-Burma and Rabinowitz’s work, especially their nature conservation strategies in kachin state, northern burma. there has been some pieces published on this topic critically examining their work, most recently a review of rabinowitz’s new book in irrawaddy.
the way WCS operates in burma, or how conservation as a process unfolds in non-democratic countries, says more about ‘conservation’ than the government and military elite that co-opt it.
anyone interested to learn more?…
Pandering to porn
From The Nation, Nov 9, 2005, a year before your Panda Porn Post: “Hundreds turned out to celebrate the wedding of two giant pandas at [Chiangmai] Zoo Wednesday. Officials are planning to have the two pandas … start mating. But the zoo wanted them to be married first. To celebrate the day, two mascots dressed as pandas and took the vows on behalf of the bears”. One wonders if the same hundreds of people turned up to watch the porn, too. But this public morality, of having the animals married, is interesting in itself. Contemporary identity work is deeply entangled with the dynamics of official recognition. One example from beyond the zoo, from a lowland peasant area of Chiangmai Province in northern Thailand concerns the revival of a blessing ceremony aimed at securing village prosperity, where a male and a female buffalo are married. As it was reported in a national newspaper in early June, 2004, the ceremony “was one of the village’s long-standing traditional events before it faded away for a long time, only to be revived about four years ago.” The revived event was to be “presided over by the sheriff and a provincial-livestock official [and] the marriage will also be registered” (The Nation, June 9, 2004). That is, even explicitly local and un-modern practices involve agents of the state and seek state-legitimation through registration. Maybe the zoo can rely on the nearest OBoTo office to sponsor weddings as the preservation of culture.
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Whoops! My last sentence should have been “….are believed by some
to be incarnations of the same deity.”
Reynolds on Handley’s The King Never Smiles
Paul Handley: Thanks for your response, & for making the revised paper freely available. When you do place it on another site, I’d be very grateful (& I’m sure others would) if you’d let us know – more discussion may open up.
Re. my comment concerning HMK at Wat Boworn: I haven’t seen any full dates in English-language references to this, prior to the recent one I mentioned. The effect of this has been an impression that he spent a substantial amount of time engaged in religious study, so I was quite amazed when you revealed the actual length of time in TKNS, as I’m sure many people were. Such “inaccurate and imprecise information” may be harmless, as you state, but it does rather contribute to the development of the (misleading) image.
I’ve just checked the 10 references in Stevenson, William: ‘The Revolutionary King,’ which, because it was apparently written at the King’s request, and with his cooperation, & also because of its often sycophantic tone, reads IMO like a Press Release. Although WS does once mention the date of his entry to the monastic life, he doesn’t give the exit date. On page 128 he states, ” His monastic retreat was brief, but he discovered the mind could travel great distances in what he would have previously called the short span of a month.”
One wonders whether this is merely inaccurate & imprecise, or whether it is in fact deliberate. It’s certainly not in line with conventional standards of research for biographical writing.
Fortunately, in your own work you have been as meticulous in regard to such matters as Stevenson has been sloppy, and this is one of the many virtues of TKNS which have ensured that it will be used as a reference by serious scholars & journalists, whereas it may be that Stevenson’s book will be regarded as a bit of a joke. This is of course furthered by what I think of as the ‘Bumper, Boy’s Own’ nature of Stevenson’s work, which comes from the use of irritatingly repetitive devices such as the nicknames ( “Old Gran”, “Lek”, “Nan”), the pretentious “Far-From-Worry” (the Hua Hin palace), “Palace of Lotus Ponds” (Old Gran’s residence behind Siam Paragon), “Lords of Life River” (the Chaophraya), and the very strange ‘Japanese master-spy’ theme, which is developed without a shred of evidence.
One thing I especially appreciate about your work, which I find is almost totally ignored by other Western journalists, is that you do discuss the degree to which the supernatural is a normal influence in daily life, including very important decision-making by high officials. Where it does emerge in the Western press, it is usually in a sensational context, e.g. the magic monk Luang Por Khun’s statement to the government before the Drug War, which had the effect of validating & sanctioning the extra-judicial killings of suspects, which has been widely reported. Stevenson’s work is saturated in magic, but it could be argued that it is to quite a large extent – not always, however – used to give the impression that HMK really does have magic powers, &, e.g., that he communicates with the people through extra-sensory means, rather than to intelligently discuss magico-religeous belief as a social, especially political, phenomenon. In his favour, he does show that HMK rather cleverly used the belief in magic, as a powerful manipulative device against the Establishment in the annual allegiance rituals in Wat Phra Khaew.
While I’ve been writing this post, I’ve had BBC World playing on my TV. 2 major news items have been the highly theatrical visit of the new French President to UK, and the shoddily stage-managed visit of the selected foreign journalists to Tibet. It’s interesting to see once again the differences between Asian and European ways of attempting to repair damage. They don’t seem to change.
In the middle of all this, the Dalai Lama was shown, speaking on the move. “It’s time: I think the Chinese Government, the officials, must accept reality,” he said. “In any case we are 21st century. Pretending or lies cannot work.” Huzzah!!!! The dear old Dalai Lama once again shows himself to be a truly modern person, although the inheritor and guardian of ancient tradition. If he’d said that 10 years ago, everyone would have said, “Well done! The poor old Dalai Lama’s said a Good Thing again. Let’s give him another consolation prize.” But today, in the age of mobile phones that can take photographs and videos & send them immediately to virtually anywhere, of almost universally available internet, of YouTube, of satellite television that can be received & transmitted in the Hindu Kush, the meaning of his words is so different. We can all SEE the evidence, not only through the mainstream channels, but also via the new ‘folk media,’ and it’s getting very hard for the fascists to control. And so their words have less power. It’s undeniable: pretending or lies cannot work. While the Chinese are still living in the 50s, rigidly ‘laying down the law,’ ridiculously trying to push their mendacious version of events, he’s been absolutely forthright & honest: no attempts to cover up anything, no denials, no lies, no lack of understanding or compassion, and he hasn’t compromised his fundamental ideals.
If the Chinese were 21st century people they would let him go back and be a leader to his people. He could very well be the negotiator to save the Tibetans & their culture, & within the context of contemporary Tibet: advantages for both sides. He is a realist and a peacemaker, AND a Buddhist. The Thai establishment could learn a lot from him. What a pity he, as a Buddhist leader, did not mentor HMK. (Significant Trivia Dept: The D.L. & HMK are believed to be incarnations of the same deity.)
An unwinnable war?
re: hrk
In your previous comment, you make several valid points, and I think we have more points in agreement than we do in disgreement. However, I would like address some arguements that you have made.
You wrote:
As I have argued before, I agree with you that a monolithic organization of “supervillians” masterminding events in the South doesn’t exist. Indeed, the loosely linked groups of the insurgency are some of the first examples of true “fourth generation warfare” or as John Robb terms it “Open Source Warfare”. Robb argues that modern day insurgents are organizing themselves more along the lines of open source software communities; first a small core group establishes a “source code”, i.e. a certain ideology that defines an enemy and a goal, and then the group opens the code to the larger community to allow various small groups and individuals to pool their talent to upgrade and employ the code through their own knowledge and resources. And of course, the larger community may contribute from a sense of altruism or they may be more mercenary in their motives.
On the previous point, we agree; however, when you go on to state that:
I must disagree. As mentioned before, “open source warfare” requires an original “source code,” and while there are many facets to the situation in the South, you must concede that many of them are reflected with, at least, the rhetoric of sacred Islamic defensive war. If the old platitude that the insurgents are just a bunch of bored teens looking for kicks were true, their “gangs” would have appellations such as “the Jets” and “the Sharks”. Instead, they align themselves into cliques with names such as the “Mujahideen Pattani Movement” (BNP), the “Islamic Mujahideen Movement of Patani” (GMIP), and the “Mujahideen Islamic Pattani Group National Revolution Front” (BRN). Many incidents in the South have been situated around pondok schools and mosques. Can you see the theme here? Again, I reiterate that it is just one element, but I argue that it an integral part of the “source code” that is ignored at one’s peril.
Furthermore, I find your violence as an expression of power differential argument to be a bit too naive for my liking. ( Besides, what’s so wrong with “individualism and egocentric personal enrichment,” this Agorist/Anarcho-capitalist asks?) In short, if violence for violence’s sake could provide enough fuel to support a prolonged insurgency, then why, in this post-Communist age, is there not a group known as the “Sons of Issan” ploting to bomb the district office at amphoe Ban Phai, in Khon Kaen? I maintain that an insurgency must be started with an ideology that allows for violent resistance to be part of it’s Robbian “source code”. The code may mutate and change over the course of time, as insurgents alter it to their own needs and agendas; however, if enough of the original source is removed or altered, than the insurgency will subside.
Finally, I agree with you that an understanding Pattani “pan-nationalism” is also useful. Your conclusion is also correct, in that, at least, you, Ji, and I agree.