Peter, as a Malaysian, I have to concur with your views. By inviting Mahatir, the BERSIH organizers have tarnished and completely destroyed whatever left-over credibility they had.
It is also true that most who turned up for the demonstration have no clue on what they want at all – it is nothing to do with the right to assemble or expression their opinion. I would say that the main objective of the rally was to force Najib out so the Opposition PR can take over the government.
Anyone who thinks BERSIH stands for clean election, good governance or anti-corruption is in serious and urgent need of a mental check up.
Negotiations to end a violent conflict are to be welcomed. However, the basic question is: are the involved parties willing, or able to compromise?
For the government the conflict in the South is a nuisance, but nothing that would destabilize it. Due to the current version of nationalism, any compromise that would imply even small degrees of autonomy is out of question. Furthermore, there are important groups that gain from the conflict. Thus, there is little to win, but much to loose.
For the insurgents, the conflict is a war of attrition which the state cannot win. So far, support of the insurgents is continuing. To maintain their own position and popular support, they have to demand levels of autonomy, which the state will never grant. Thus, they too have little to gain and much to loose.
Talks are nice, as they indicate we are all doing something, even though we don’t intend to change anything. Based on the above arguments, I do not take Mara too serious as an alliance to reach any agreement. Mara is there to show a willingness to negotiate, without any real intention to do so, just like the state representatives. Even if the negotiations between Mara and the representatives of the state would lead to a compromise, these will be overruled in Bangkok and probably as well by insurgent groups.
A further important issue is, if,what currently seems improbable, but let’s just think about it, the state would grant autonomy rights like bi-lingualism, special forms of administration, quota systems etc., These have to be part of laws and the constitution. As we see, even a constitution can be dissolved quite easily. What happens then with these rights? There have been several historical agreements, which were all made obsolete by changes of government! Thus, besides negotiations between the two parties, international guarantors would have to be defined, who have the right to intervene if the autonomy rights are not respected either due to neglect of local administrators or due to changes of government. This certainly will not be accepted by the state.
In short, to continue the conflict on a limited scale makes more sense than finding a solution.
This issue is discussed within the context of Myanmar is because:
!) The funding for most NGO and so called HR org. are getting scarce with DASSK now not persecuted. The irony is these self serving org. are neglecting the rest of the rural citizenry who are more impoverished than the Muslim Kalar in Yakhine they are advocating for. hopefully to get funding (or already did) from OIC (Chechez d’argent).
2) Attacking Buddhism in Myanmar, as an institution, the Thirivada, the most tolerance religion is back firing even against the out spoken Ashin Wiratu.
3) Knowing most Muslim in Myanmar are doing well, there fore the focus idiosy must be on Yakine only and yet not mentioning that facts they fore exonerating the Muslin in Myanmar, Malysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh else where that can greatly contribute to the betterment of the fellow Yakhine Muslim.
This rejection is simply a ploy to extend the life of the junta, since a whole new PROPOSED Constitution will now have to drawn up and drafted at length.
What I do not really understand is, why this issue is only discussed with reference to Myanmar. I think it is necessary to distinguish at least four issues here:
1. Minority politics in Myanmar, of which the Rohingya are only one aspect. Interestingly, the Kachin and Chin are commonly ignored!
2. Migration politics in the Indian Ocean, which concerns besides Myanmar Bangladesh, India, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia.
3. Migration as human trafficking as a big business in which persons form the mentioned states seem to be involved;
4. The role of NGO and UN-Organisations and their repsective agendas.
I agree. The decision has a Janus head. To reject this constitution, which obviously has the objective to make parties, elections and parliament relative irrelevant is certainly a right decision. However, this decision has not been made by an elected parliament, but an assembly whose members have been selected by the current government. The implication is that this government will remain in power without any constitution. Thus, it is hardly a decision towards more democracy. One motive had been mentioned in the Bangkok Post: May be quite a few rejected the constitution to keep their current job.
Two wrongs do not make a right. But I agree: the persecution of Buddhists (and Hindus, of which there more than 10% earlier) in Bangladeshis nowhere mentioned, nor the persecution of Christians and other religious minorities in many officially Muslim countries. I only mention Malaysia. In Sri Lanka Tamils are still persecuted, but only persecuted Muslims make it into headlines. That does not justify maiming and killing of Muslims in Myanmar, but it does put things in perspective: No, it is not Muslims who are persecuted, other religions are equally affected! Please give them as much space as you do the Rohinggyas!
In June 2013, Singapore introduced a regulation for all websites that report on local news and receive more than 50,000 unique visitors with IP addresses in Singapore for two consecutive months, according to news reports. Licensed websites are required to pay a Singaporean $50,000 (about US$37,500) bond and remove any “prohibited content,” including news deemed detrimental to public interests, within 24 hours of being contacted by the MDA.
Singapore government has just shut down the extremely-popular alternative news site THE REAL SINGAPORE by using that 2013 Draconian Law. Change is on its way in Singapore, Dream on, Dr Poh Soo Kai, Dream On!
Following was what a well-known Burmese writer eloquently wrote about the brutal realities of Buddhist-Muslim conflict in Burma and Bangladesh going on for more than a century now.
“Chittagong – its original Burmese name was Sittagaung – Hill Tracts the border region with nearly 100% Buddhist-Burmese and Buddhist-Yakhines in 1960s has been tragically reduced to just over 10% Buddhist today by the countless numbers of Islamic pogroms committed by the millions and millions of Bengali-Muslim settlers wholeheartedly supported by successive Bangladeshi Governments and brutally-violent Bangladeshi Islamists funded by Wahabi Saudi Arabia.
The Buddhist population in Bangladesh right now is measly 0.7% from over 20% just before the Second World War. The tragic fact that nowadays Bangladesh is almost Buddhist-free and the genocidal extinction of Burmese-Buddhists in Bangladesh has been conveniently ignored by Saudi-funded OIC and its backers United Nations and United States.
Maybe Burma and Bangladesh should amiably exchange Burma’s all Muslims for Bangladesh’s last remaining Buddhists if these Bangladeshi Islamists really want a pure Islamic country as the Buddhist-Burmese also prefer their country a pure Buddhist one too. Like what happened between Hindu India and Islamic Pakistan during the Partition of British India to India and Pakistan in 1947.
The exodus of Buddhists from Bangladeshi borderland has already begun and the thousands and thousands of these pogroms-fleeing Bangladeshi-Buddhists – who ethnically are either Burmese or Yakhines – are now happily resettling themselves in the former villages of Bengali-Muslims displaced during recent Arakan race riots.
Maybe the recent burning of Muslims and their mosques and madrassas in Burma’s Meikhtilar will encourage Muslims to leave Burma like the frequent Islamic-pogroms in Bangladesh are the strong incentives for Buddhists there to leave Bangladesh.
I’m not sure things are quite as they seem. I truly suspect the rejection was somehow part of a larger Prayut and Co. scheme to secure just whatever ends they are striving for.
It would be nice to be wrong, of course, but I can’t yet accept we are seeing a triumph for democracy. I might seem unduly cynical; let’s just wait and see.
Ohn, no. It should be easy enough to determine the extent to which both criminal and political elements manipulate the boat movements. Right of centre media aren’t interested in Rohingyas and the Left media won’t risk discrediting their own causes. Sadly information gathering agencies are lazy, risk averse and have other priorities.
That media discourse is now being shifted from ‘the boats were a unique event caused by a Thai crackdown on smugglers’ to ‘it will be repeated when the weather permits,’ is a strong indication that experienced propagandists are successfully manipulating public discourse. This shouldn’t be surprising, all political movements do the same. And are entitled to do so. However, we can and should be actively concerned with Rohingya human rights while remaining distrustful of the motives of the their unelected leadership/s.
UNHCR camp are maintained for (in this case) refugee Kalar. Anyone can leave but not everyone has the permission to stay in the camp.
I know the camp Kalar will rather suffer the monsoon as the Yakhine citizenry, without the benefit of UNHCR help.
Knowing the history of the refugees will they help out or help themselves?
If you are an Asian, ‘deem illegal’ either in Saudi Arabia a rich Arabic country or a in Bangladesh the poorest Muslim country, accordingly to their laws, dies the laws make them ‘racist’?
Please be mindful that all their laws are based on Islam, before you #1.1 answer the question.
It is not easy to live a Princess or Prince life in Thailand … and maybe in other places too. There will be lots of Ricardo Matthews ready with their snide swipes with a wink.
Fact of Thai royal life for as long as the monarchy lasts.
[…] More importantly, he is also unable to listen, hear, read or see the signals coming from within UMNO. This could be fatal. Powerful segments within UMNO are genuinely concerned that Prime Minister Najib is condemning UMNO to oblivion. […]
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Bersih 4.0 takes over Kuala Lumpur
Peter, as a Malaysian, I have to concur with your views. By inviting Mahatir, the BERSIH organizers have tarnished and completely destroyed whatever left-over credibility they had.
It is also true that most who turned up for the demonstration have no clue on what they want at all – it is nothing to do with the right to assemble or expression their opinion. I would say that the main objective of the rally was to force Najib out so the Opposition PR can take over the government.
Anyone who thinks BERSIH stands for clean election, good governance or anti-corruption is in serious and urgent need of a mental check up.
No peace soon in Thailand’s Deep South
Negotiations to end a violent conflict are to be welcomed. However, the basic question is: are the involved parties willing, or able to compromise?
For the government the conflict in the South is a nuisance, but nothing that would destabilize it. Due to the current version of nationalism, any compromise that would imply even small degrees of autonomy is out of question. Furthermore, there are important groups that gain from the conflict. Thus, there is little to win, but much to loose.
For the insurgents, the conflict is a war of attrition which the state cannot win. So far, support of the insurgents is continuing. To maintain their own position and popular support, they have to demand levels of autonomy, which the state will never grant. Thus, they too have little to gain and much to loose.
Talks are nice, as they indicate we are all doing something, even though we don’t intend to change anything. Based on the above arguments, I do not take Mara too serious as an alliance to reach any agreement. Mara is there to show a willingness to negotiate, without any real intention to do so, just like the state representatives. Even if the negotiations between Mara and the representatives of the state would lead to a compromise, these will be overruled in Bangkok and probably as well by insurgent groups.
A further important issue is, if,what currently seems improbable, but let’s just think about it, the state would grant autonomy rights like bi-lingualism, special forms of administration, quota systems etc., These have to be part of laws and the constitution. As we see, even a constitution can be dissolved quite easily. What happens then with these rights? There have been several historical agreements, which were all made obsolete by changes of government! Thus, besides negotiations between the two parties, international guarantors would have to be defined, who have the right to intervene if the autonomy rights are not respected either due to neglect of local administrators or due to changes of government. This certainly will not be accepted by the state.
In short, to continue the conflict on a limited scale makes more sense than finding a solution.
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
This issue is discussed within the context of Myanmar is because:
!) The funding for most NGO and so called HR org. are getting scarce with DASSK now not persecuted. The irony is these self serving org. are neglecting the rest of the rural citizenry who are more impoverished than the Muslim Kalar in Yakhine they are advocating for. hopefully to get funding (or already did) from OIC (Chechez d’argent).
2) Attacking Buddhism in Myanmar, as an institution, the Thirivada, the most tolerance religion is back firing even against the out spoken Ashin Wiratu.
3) Knowing most Muslim in Myanmar are doing well, there fore the focus idiosy must be on Yakine only and yet not mentioning that facts they fore exonerating the Muslin in Myanmar, Malysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh else where that can greatly contribute to the betterment of the fellow Yakhine Muslim.
Coups and constitutions
This rejection is simply a ploy to extend the life of the junta, since a whole new PROPOSED Constitution will now have to drawn up and drafted at length.
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
What I do not really understand is, why this issue is only discussed with reference to Myanmar. I think it is necessary to distinguish at least four issues here:
1. Minority politics in Myanmar, of which the Rohingya are only one aspect. Interestingly, the Kachin and Chin are commonly ignored!
2. Migration politics in the Indian Ocean, which concerns besides Myanmar Bangladesh, India, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia.
3. Migration as human trafficking as a big business in which persons form the mentioned states seem to be involved;
4. The role of NGO and UN-Organisations and their repsective agendas.
Coups and constitutions
I agree. The decision has a Janus head. To reject this constitution, which obviously has the objective to make parties, elections and parliament relative irrelevant is certainly a right decision. However, this decision has not been made by an elected parliament, but an assembly whose members have been selected by the current government. The implication is that this government will remain in power without any constitution. Thus, it is hardly a decision towards more democracy. One motive had been mentioned in the Bangkok Post: May be quite a few rejected the constitution to keep their current job.
Australia’s Malay population
Excellent and seemingly well-researched comment!
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
Two wrongs do not make a right. But I agree: the persecution of Buddhists (and Hindus, of which there more than 10% earlier) in Bangladeshis nowhere mentioned, nor the persecution of Christians and other religious minorities in many officially Muslim countries. I only mention Malaysia. In Sri Lanka Tamils are still persecuted, but only persecuted Muslims make it into headlines. That does not justify maiming and killing of Muslims in Myanmar, but it does put things in perspective: No, it is not Muslims who are persecuted, other religions are equally affected! Please give them as much space as you do the Rohinggyas!
Change is on its way in Singapore
In June 2013, Singapore introduced a regulation for all websites that report on local news and receive more than 50,000 unique visitors with IP addresses in Singapore for two consecutive months, according to news reports. Licensed websites are required to pay a Singaporean $50,000 (about US$37,500) bond and remove any “prohibited content,” including news deemed detrimental to public interests, within 24 hours of being contacted by the MDA.
Singapore government has just shut down the extremely-popular alternative news site THE REAL SINGAPORE by using that 2013 Draconian Law. Change is on its way in Singapore, Dream on, Dr Poh Soo Kai, Dream On!
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
Following was what a well-known Burmese writer eloquently wrote about the brutal realities of Buddhist-Muslim conflict in Burma and Bangladesh going on for more than a century now.
“Chittagong – its original Burmese name was Sittagaung – Hill Tracts the border region with nearly 100% Buddhist-Burmese and Buddhist-Yakhines in 1960s has been tragically reduced to just over 10% Buddhist today by the countless numbers of Islamic pogroms committed by the millions and millions of Bengali-Muslim settlers wholeheartedly supported by successive Bangladeshi Governments and brutally-violent Bangladeshi Islamists funded by Wahabi Saudi Arabia.
The Buddhist population in Bangladesh right now is measly 0.7% from over 20% just before the Second World War. The tragic fact that nowadays Bangladesh is almost Buddhist-free and the genocidal extinction of Burmese-Buddhists in Bangladesh has been conveniently ignored by Saudi-funded OIC and its backers United Nations and United States.
Maybe Burma and Bangladesh should amiably exchange Burma’s all Muslims for Bangladesh’s last remaining Buddhists if these Bangladeshi Islamists really want a pure Islamic country as the Buddhist-Burmese also prefer their country a pure Buddhist one too. Like what happened between Hindu India and Islamic Pakistan during the Partition of British India to India and Pakistan in 1947.
The exodus of Buddhists from Bangladeshi borderland has already begun and the thousands and thousands of these pogroms-fleeing Bangladeshi-Buddhists – who ethnically are either Burmese or Yakhines – are now happily resettling themselves in the former villages of Bengali-Muslims displaced during recent Arakan race riots.
Maybe the recent burning of Muslims and their mosques and madrassas in Burma’s Meikhtilar will encourage Muslims to leave Burma like the frequent Islamic-pogroms in Bangladesh are the strong incentives for Buddhists there to leave Bangladesh.
Coups and constitutions
I’m not sure things are quite as they seem. I truly suspect the rejection was somehow part of a larger Prayut and Co. scheme to secure just whatever ends they are striving for.
It would be nice to be wrong, of course, but I can’t yet accept we are seeing a triumph for democracy. I might seem unduly cynical; let’s just wait and see.
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
Ohn, no. It should be easy enough to determine the extent to which both criminal and political elements manipulate the boat movements. Right of centre media aren’t interested in Rohingyas and the Left media won’t risk discrediting their own causes. Sadly information gathering agencies are lazy, risk averse and have other priorities.
That media discourse is now being shifted from ‘the boats were a unique event caused by a Thai crackdown on smugglers’ to ‘it will be repeated when the weather permits,’ is a strong indication that experienced propagandists are successfully manipulating public discourse. This shouldn’t be surprising, all political movements do the same. And are entitled to do so. However, we can and should be actively concerned with Rohingya human rights while remaining distrustful of the motives of the their unelected leadership/s.
Coups and constitutions
Bravo! Thailand’s NRC had today rejected the proposed new Thai constitution! The democracy-minded Thai people can jubilate, but should stay on guard!
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
UNHCR camp are maintained for (in this case) refugee Kalar. Anyone can leave but not everyone has the permission to stay in the camp.
I know the camp Kalar will rather suffer the monsoon as the Yakhine citizenry, without the benefit of UNHCR help.
Knowing the history of the refugees will they help out or help themselves?
If you are an Asian, ‘deem illegal’ either in Saudi Arabia a rich Arabic country or a in Bangladesh the poorest Muslim country, accordingly to their laws, dies the laws make them ‘racist’?
Please be mindful that all their laws are based on Islam, before you #1.1 answer the question.
Myanmar and the world’s next mass atrocity
At a time when the world is becoming stupid-er and stupid-er, only hyperbole and extreme sensationalization works.
Let the children be!
Tony Milner on Malaysia today
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2015/09/04/tony-milner-on-malaysia-today/ […]
Princess Pa’s thesis
It is not easy to live a Princess or Prince life in Thailand … and maybe in other places too. There will be lots of Ricardo Matthews ready with their snide swipes with a wink.
Fact of Thai royal life for as long as the monarchy lasts.
Competition: Speaking of Southeast Asia
It has been 1 year since this article.
So who is the winner?
And where do we go to read the winner’s essay?
Would appreciate a link.
Thanks.
Malaysia’s long history of financial scandals
[…] is simply an evolution of an entrenched system. The number of corruption scandals involving Barisan Nasional has grown in […]
Najib Razak’s gamble
[…] More importantly, he is also unable to listen, hear, read or see the signals coming from within UMNO. This could be fatal. Powerful segments within UMNO are genuinely concerned that Prime Minister Najib is condemning UMNO to oblivion. […]