He wants to protect freedom of speech but is upset by others exercising that right on this forum and wants to see those comments he doesn’t like expunged and censored?
In my view New Mandala gets the balance about right with comments. And I guess they can only publish what comes in & not what self-important “authors” think is most suitable.
Couldn’t agree more that Myanmar’s people are the key for a successful transition. Wish the dear Lady appreciated that beyond elitist manipulation and opportunistic exploitation of popular struggle.
While Fukuyama talks about patience Diamond reckons the recent putsch, evidently from impatience or rather panic on the part of the NDSC, could backfire badly.
The Burmese are willing to learn from anyone. Whether they will actually listen to ‘expert advice’ is quite another matter. And this applies to both the rulers and the ruled.
Nick wrote: “Under the current military regime it looks like there is almost no chance of reform to the law. It is just far too useful given the politics of succession that are swirling around.”
That misunderstands the situation. The lese majeste crackdown is part and parcel of the politics of succession. Open discussion of the monarchy essentially “democratizes” royal affairs, and that is antithetical to how the military and the palace want it, and, indeed, is antithetical to the idea of monarchy, absolute or constitutional. They don’t want the people involved in the succession. (While I doubt they are generally conscious of it, look at the example of the post-war royal crisis in Belgium.) So lese majeste (and in my view the junta itself) is not going to disappear until King Bhumibol dies and someone new takes the throne. And probably not then, until the next sovereign is completely comfortable that they can rule with the kind of barami that Bhumibol has, rather than constant threat.
In answer to Sam Deedes question about “inactive posts”. When I was getting married I was advised to check with the local Thai infantry regiment as they hosted weddings at a reasonable cost.
My future wife with chaperone and I went to the regimental offices and went to a large long room on the second floor full of women dressed in civilian clothes shuffling paper or typing. It was a non air conditioned room and at a tressle table in one corner sat a Colonel with books of photos of previous weddings. It was his job to “sell weddings”.
He looked unkept, his hair was long, his uniform devoid of most of the “tin” ribbons and paraphernalia you see on normal officers of that rank and he looked as though he was in his late sixties. He was 53 years old and had been “inactive” for a number of years. I did not ask why he was “inactive” or whose toes he had trodden on.
I referred to him as the Commanding Officer – Weddings.
Many societies have strict hierarchies like this, including the UK. Here in London you can’t move without bumping into this or that lord, sir, knight, baron, MBE, CBE, OBE, major, flight lieutenant, doctor, fellow… Their titles have no bearing on their actual ability of course.
A long time ago, in a school far, far away, I spent some time with р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕Юр╕Чр╣М. My recollection is that every high school student gets a fair bit of exposure to the language (in Thai class, and elsewhere), and many successful high school graduates have at least a solid passive understanding.
That said, in all my years working with Thais I can’t think of all that many who would claim a strong active capacity to use the royal vocabulary. Rendering a speech in the royal form takes real effort if it deviates from the standard scripts and expectations.
I also recall watching certain royal words and phrases being taught to primary school children in a mountainous area of northern Thailand over a decade ago. That was much more basic, but all part of the comprehensive education on offer.
I hope others can weigh in with their own experiences and knowledge. Perhaps school students today are getting a heavier introduction that means they will be confident using the royal form?
It’s a fascinating topic for all sorts of reasons.
As well as the point about retired generals, what about those in the police and army who have been “transferred to inactive posts”? What is an inactive post anyway? It conjures up a picture of someone sitting at the naughty desk all day long twiddling their thumbs and collecting a pay check at the end of the week.
Another point worth mentioning is the requirement for Thais to use a special language when addressing royalty. Who gets taught this language in the first place? When and where? Is it on the curriculum of every school in the country? (That is a genuine question, by the way. I just don’t know.)
People have short memories, but here is an article by Nicholas Farrelly in 2012 and if you look at the photo carefully, you can see Thura Shwe Mann on the left signing a deal with the North Koreans (the Burmese flag was different) http://www.newmandala.org/2012/04/03/burma-and-north-korea-two-hungry-tigers/
Neither the Thai King nor Queen received actual university degrees because they either choose not to do the required study and work or were incapable of doing the required study or work. They control billions of $’s, have 100’s of expensive cars, many large houses, 1000’s of servants whereas ordinary Thais get by on a few thousand $’s a year.
After the big event, do you think the law will still be used as a tool of control, or do you think it would be too messy as both side would get caught up in it?
Dr. Cable should be careful making categorical statements about Burmese Institutions. Burma existed before 1988. I was a student at the University of Rangoon during the 60’s (and my parents during the 40’s). Things have changed a lot, I’m sure but to judge Burma based only on what have happened since 1988 would be academically too narrow-minded.
One humble suggestion about reforming the education sector in Burma (not just poli-sci stuff, STEM subjects are more crucial for the modern economy): there are a number of Burmese ex-pats who are well-educated, many of them working in Universities in the West, but the Burmese government tends to view them as “dissidents and déserteurs”, so they prefer to get “advice” from “white Westerners” rather than from people who are Burmese but who do not agree with the government.
I think, if Kofi Anan had not been the UN secretary-general, but an ordinary Thai, he would never have become an “elite” in Thai society, because of his skin colour.
Jonah Fisher is a good journalist. See his earlier report about Mong La: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28772647
You can find out more about what is really going on behind the “Naypyidaw fa├зade” in Burma if you really go to the right places and talk to the ordinary people. Journalists should be more adventurous and do that kind of thing more often to really “open up” a country since most upper-class Burmese just like to sweep unpleasant things under the carpet. It’s more about “faking and keeping up appearances”, especially to foreigners.
Perhaps Shwe Mann was trying too hard to bite the hand that fed him and his two sons for decades. To become rich in Burma, you have to be loyal to the junta and its cronies. Shwe Mann became a traitor (thissaphauk) in the eyes of Than Shwe. Than Shwe actually never really trusted Shwe Mann (he didn’t give him the President job in 2011). During the junta era, Shwe Mann rose through the ranks as sort of a buffer or compromise between the complex rivalries between Than Shwe, Maung Aye and Khin Nyunt, I believe.
Andrew MacGregor Marshall you are being unfair to NM’s moderators. If there are more trolls and abuse on this site than before – though I see no evidence of your outrageous claim – this would surely be a function of Thailand’s increasing polarisation, and no fault of the moderators, doing an increasingly difficult job.
There are from time to time significant and heavy critic of the royals and their specific acts, you will find comedy shows which makes fun of them every year. But in almost all of the above countries you mention there are NO prosecutions despite that we have a lese majeste law. You will also find that there is a constant debate of the place of the monarchy in a modern society. personally I think it is wat more interesting that the lese majeste law seems to be made broader and broader in Thailand and include privy councils, certain military activities, whereas in the rest of the world the law is made narrower, further the sentence in all cases have always been public. I think you forget that even your own king have said that King’s make mistakes and should be critized.
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Lèse-majesté today
Very odd comment.
He wants to protect freedom of speech but is upset by others exercising that right on this forum and wants to see those comments he doesn’t like expunged and censored?
In my view New Mandala gets the balance about right with comments. And I guess they can only publish what comes in & not what self-important “authors” think is most suitable.
The ‘political science experiment’
Couldn’t agree more that Myanmar’s people are the key for a successful transition. Wish the dear Lady appreciated that beyond elitist manipulation and opportunistic exploitation of popular struggle.
While Fukuyama talks about patience Diamond reckons the recent putsch, evidently from impatience or rather panic on the part of the NDSC, could backfire badly.
The Burmese are willing to learn from anyone. Whether they will actually listen to ‘expert advice’ is quite another matter. And this applies to both the rulers and the ruled.
Lèse-majesté today
Nick wrote: “Under the current military regime it looks like there is almost no chance of reform to the law. It is just far too useful given the politics of succession that are swirling around.”
That misunderstands the situation. The lese majeste crackdown is part and parcel of the politics of succession. Open discussion of the monarchy essentially “democratizes” royal affairs, and that is antithetical to how the military and the palace want it, and, indeed, is antithetical to the idea of monarchy, absolute or constitutional. They don’t want the people involved in the succession. (While I doubt they are generally conscious of it, look at the example of the post-war royal crisis in Belgium.) So lese majeste (and in my view the junta itself) is not going to disappear until King Bhumibol dies and someone new takes the throne. And probably not then, until the next sovereign is completely comfortable that they can rule with the kind of barami that Bhumibol has, rather than constant threat.
Thai elitism and hierarchy
In answer to Sam Deedes question about “inactive posts”. When I was getting married I was advised to check with the local Thai infantry regiment as they hosted weddings at a reasonable cost.
My future wife with chaperone and I went to the regimental offices and went to a large long room on the second floor full of women dressed in civilian clothes shuffling paper or typing. It was a non air conditioned room and at a tressle table in one corner sat a Colonel with books of photos of previous weddings. It was his job to “sell weddings”.
He looked unkept, his hair was long, his uniform devoid of most of the “tin” ribbons and paraphernalia you see on normal officers of that rank and he looked as though he was in his late sixties. He was 53 years old and had been “inactive” for a number of years. I did not ask why he was “inactive” or whose toes he had trodden on.
I referred to him as the Commanding Officer – Weddings.
Thai elitism and hierarchy
Many societies have strict hierarchies like this, including the UK. Here in London you can’t move without bumping into this or that lord, sir, knight, baron, MBE, CBE, OBE, major, flight lieutenant, doctor, fellow… Their titles have no bearing on their actual ability of course.
Thai elitism and hierarchy
Sam,
A long time ago, in a school far, far away, I spent some time with р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕Юр╕Чр╣М. My recollection is that every high school student gets a fair bit of exposure to the language (in Thai class, and elsewhere), and many successful high school graduates have at least a solid passive understanding.
That said, in all my years working with Thais I can’t think of all that many who would claim a strong active capacity to use the royal vocabulary. Rendering a speech in the royal form takes real effort if it deviates from the standard scripts and expectations.
I also recall watching certain royal words and phrases being taught to primary school children in a mountainous area of northern Thailand over a decade ago. That was much more basic, but all part of the comprehensive education on offer.
I hope others can weigh in with their own experiences and knowledge. Perhaps school students today are getting a heavier introduction that means they will be confident using the royal form?
It’s a fascinating topic for all sorts of reasons.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
The ‘political science experiment’
Speaking of political science professors from Stanford, here is a recent interview that Francis Fukuyama gave to Aung Zaw, the editor of The Irrawaddy (not Ayeyarwady?):
http://m.irrawaddy.org/interview/francis-fukuyama-its-not-that-hard-to-hold-a-free-and-fair-election.html
Thai elitism and hierarchy
As well as the point about retired generals, what about those in the police and army who have been “transferred to inactive posts”? What is an inactive post anyway? It conjures up a picture of someone sitting at the naughty desk all day long twiddling their thumbs and collecting a pay check at the end of the week.
Another point worth mentioning is the requirement for Thais to use a special language when addressing royalty. Who gets taught this language in the first place? When and where? Is it on the curriculum of every school in the country? (That is a genuine question, by the way. I just don’t know.)
Watch the enemies from your own side
People have short memories, but here is an article by Nicholas Farrelly in 2012 and if you look at the photo carefully, you can see Thura Shwe Mann on the left signing a deal with the North Koreans (the Burmese flag was different)
http://www.newmandala.org/2012/04/03/burma-and-north-korea-two-hungry-tigers/
Lèse-majesté today
Who told you that the King of Thailand in above the law??? You don’t know what you are talking about, so…….
Thai elitism and hierarchy
Neither the Thai King nor Queen received actual university degrees because they either choose not to do the required study and work or were incapable of doing the required study or work. They control billions of $’s, have 100’s of expensive cars, many large houses, 1000’s of servants whereas ordinary Thais get by on a few thousand $’s a year.
Lèse-majesté today
After the big event, do you think the law will still be used as a tool of control, or do you think it would be too messy as both side would get caught up in it?
The ‘political science experiment’
Dr. Cable should be careful making categorical statements about Burmese Institutions. Burma existed before 1988. I was a student at the University of Rangoon during the 60’s (and my parents during the 40’s). Things have changed a lot, I’m sure but to judge Burma based only on what have happened since 1988 would be academically too narrow-minded.
One humble suggestion about reforming the education sector in Burma (not just poli-sci stuff, STEM subjects are more crucial for the modern economy): there are a number of Burmese ex-pats who are well-educated, many of them working in Universities in the West, but the Burmese government tends to view them as “dissidents and déserteurs”, so they prefer to get “advice” from “white Westerners” rather than from people who are Burmese but who do not agree with the government.
Thai elitism and hierarchy
I think, if Kofi Anan had not been the UN secretary-general, but an ordinary Thai, he would never have become an “elite” in Thai society, because of his skin colour.
Watch the enemies from your own side
Jonah Fisher is a good journalist. See his earlier report about Mong La:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28772647
You can find out more about what is really going on behind the “Naypyidaw fa├зade” in Burma if you really go to the right places and talk to the ordinary people. Journalists should be more adventurous and do that kind of thing more often to really “open up” a country since most upper-class Burmese just like to sweep unpleasant things under the carpet. It’s more about “faking and keeping up appearances”, especially to foreigners.
Watch the enemies from your own side
Dream interview ? With nightmarish promises.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33587800?SThisFB%3FSThisFB
Watch the enemies from your own side
Perhaps Shwe Mann was trying too hard to bite the hand that fed him and his two sons for decades. To become rich in Burma, you have to be loyal to the junta and its cronies. Shwe Mann became a traitor (thissaphauk) in the eyes of Than Shwe. Than Shwe actually never really trusted Shwe Mann (he didn’t give him the President job in 2011). During the junta era, Shwe Mann rose through the ranks as sort of a buffer or compromise between the complex rivalries between Than Shwe, Maung Aye and Khin Nyunt, I believe.
Lèse-majesté today
Andrew MacGregor Marshall you are being unfair to NM’s moderators. If there are more trolls and abuse on this site than before – though I see no evidence of your outrageous claim – this would surely be a function of Thailand’s increasing polarisation, and no fault of the moderators, doing an increasingly difficult job.
Lèse-majesté today
Dear Apirak Ngsriwongse,
There are from time to time significant and heavy critic of the royals and their specific acts, you will find comedy shows which makes fun of them every year. But in almost all of the above countries you mention there are NO prosecutions despite that we have a lese majeste law. You will also find that there is a constant debate of the place of the monarchy in a modern society. personally I think it is wat more interesting that the lese majeste law seems to be made broader and broader in Thailand and include privy councils, certain military activities, whereas in the rest of the world the law is made narrower, further the sentence in all cases have always been public. I think you forget that even your own king have said that King’s make mistakes and should be critized.
Lèse-majesté today
Even though your spelling is good, your lack of punctuation, as well as what you say, reveal you as an elitist troll trying to teach us Thainess.