The only way conservatives at best, reactionaries at worst – are going to play the democractic game in these countries with long, deeply-entrenched highly authoritarian traditions, is if they are either forced to, or here in the current election : they can see clear gain from doing so. Prabowo should be given his chance. Indonesia is not Thailand. There’s ONLY ever been ONE sucessful (hugely bloody Indonesian coup. It won’t be easy for Prabowo to overthrow democraksi -even if he gets tempted to try. Today is not Suharto’s Cold War. America’s reaction would likely be very harsh. To say nothing of the very demokrasi-minded HUGE Muslim organisation such as Nahdatul Ulama and Muhamidayah.
Leftist, moi? I was a Thatcherite in my youth! Anti-monarchist? No, I think monarchy still has a useful role to play. Since this is an Aussie site, I might feel differently if I was one too but that seems to have most to do with an understandable search for a affirmation of their own independent national identity. Leastways I don’t think it is
relevant to views about Thailand.
But let’s consider your b├кte noire, Thaksin. Leftist? Hardly! – though I do believe he is the only significant Thai politician who has been prepared to take on Thailand’s huge disparities in wealth, both social and regional. Anti-monarchist? All the evidence is that he, like so many Thais, is absolutely besotted with the monarchy and actually deeply hurt by being represented as anything else.
As for not being in a majority, you are right, because majorities here don’t matter. All that matters here is the quality of the argument. On this subject the only place that the majority does matter is among the people of Thailand. So, tell me, what has been the result of the last six general elections? Now that does matter!
Anyway, it is refreshing to have you post in what are for once, I believe, your own words.
Writing under my clear name I will be a bit careful and don’t name names. Some have argued the miliiyary coup was an intra-elite effort to secure the pork first. In other words, it cut in front of the faction which supported the judicial coup. Unhappy powerful people.
The junta leader never met with his economic advisors. Unhappy business people.
The reshufflement may be blocked. Unhappy military people.
Finally the international response made some people feel a loss of face. Unhappy people.
The honeymoon is over. Now the gloves come off.
Try to read the news if who said what through these lenses, lots of interesting angles appear
This commentary is far from accurate and is full of false claims. Mahathir did not have good relations with the US throughout his twenty-two year reign. That is nonsense. Mahathir hates the US and does not hide it. Nambiar’s voice is the voice of UMNO and is, therefore, the voice of Prime Minister Najib, who’s days are numbered. UMNO/BN lacks any credibility and Nambiar’s father funny optimism, is belied, by a government that is totally lost, beholden to racist Malay NGOs,
can’t decide if it is Islamic or pseudo-secular, does not understand the Malaysian Constitution, and allows the Home Minister and the IGP to utter seditious comments, stating that they serve Malays and Islam, before Malaysia. The TTP is useless. UMNO is finished. Najib is totally worn out, letting Isma and Perkasa do his bidding. Nambiar talks about Malaysia, as if it was a stable, thriving democracy, with no intercultural division, no racism, no threats to expel “Pendatang”, no threats from Malay NGOs to “chop heads in defence of Islam”, no absurd
court decisions regarding the use of the word “Allah”, and no unfair-minded decisions regarding false converts to Islam. Nambiar may be talking about some nation on Planet Earth, but it is most certainly not Malaysia.
Oh, did I mention a missing airplane ?
For details of the 2275 number see this post. US Embassy, as we now know, through Wikileaks estimated 1,300 died (see the post for the link and for the below details)
These 1,300 were the extra deaths on top of the normal homicide rate. The Thai police estimated there were 1,329 drug related homicides since February (for the year?) although say police were only responsible for 79.
From the US Embassy, the police themselves, and just some rudimentary maths, around 1,300 people died, but these are drug-related homicides which includes those killed by the police and other drug dealers. The breakdown between the two is what am unsure about.
I find Dr Nambiar’s article very naive.
Is he not aware that there is nothing liberal or egalitarian about the TPP.
It was drawn up by US Multinational Corporations, to give them an unfair advantage over everyone else, be they national government agencies or private citizens.
Any country that is stupid enough to sign this agreement does so at their peril
It is not the goats we are worried about, Prabowo, but the chickens. And they have come home to roost. Your non-contiguous and non-linear thought processes as exemplified by your barely coherent comments are proof enough that you lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to lead Indonesia. Oh, and your record on human rights is not exactly stellar.
112 works too well. Most analysts fear for their own safety when mentioning the monarchy (I may be wrong but many foreign analysts seem to be married to a Thai, or anyway want to be able to do field work again one day) so they shut up on this matter. You are one of the rare courageous.
And since most analysts do not mention the monarchy and succession, it tends to be forgotten by most.
Also, many Thai fighting for the democracy and critical of the monarchy still find it hard to negatively speak about their King or Queen even under concealed identity. Years of propaganda and fear is not easily taken away.
I think you know all that already and sorry for my bad englsih.
The thing about Indonesian voters who live in Indonesia is, they’re not so much exposed to such analysis or articles that provide logical arguments on the election. I am glad if i can share the benefit of reading the alike articles to others in Indonesia.
I’m sure glad that all the leftist, staunch anti-monarchists, and Chris Baker are the ‘majority’ on this site and can do, posts, and flame as you please. People like myself, Vichai, and Chris Beale are in minority and can truly understand the meaning of ‘tyranny of the majority’ as it’s in full bloom here on NM. It’s actually fun to act as a foil for NMites to hound and badger, as well as to be the subject of the imitable NM double standards . Gives me and you something to do.
But don’t get too excited, your majority is only here and possibly on Andy Mac’s FB; but you are definitely in the minority when it comes to anything having to do with the Kingdom of Thailand. Of the 7 billion inhabitants on this earth, 70 million in the Kingdom – your hundreds or maybe thousands is just like what we Thais colloquy would say – just dogs barking up at airplanes. Your incessant diatribes, whingings, and rants have an audience of only yourselves. Your obsession and hatred of Thai monarchy is so strong that you’d side and turn a blind eye with anyone who’d bring it down.
Do you really think that your little group of leftists can actually make a difference to what’s happening right now in the Kingdom?
Do you really think that your unsubstatiated allegations and accusations will actually undermine the real love and respect accorded to HMK of Thailand?
Do you honestly think like Pavin does that the reds shirts and thaksin are the true savior of and a platform for Democracy in Thailand?
Are you in denial that thaksin and the reds are what’s bad for true Democracy?
One discovery leads to another and now I see that this is by no means the first time that notdisappointed has cut and pasted, but not credited, Cartalucci’s FB posts here on NM. Indeed it seems to be his regular practice. I was actually rather complimentary about one piece, deploring only that he spoilt his argument by his irrational hatred of you-know-who. But one of the problems nd has is that, not being the author of the piece, he is incapable of entering into argument or defending them rationally when challenged.It makes the whole exercise rather a waste of time. On another recent occasion nd has cut and pasted – again uncredited – a paper on Coups and Democracy by Nikolay Marinov and Hein Goemans.
Nonetheless it is Cartalucci who appears to be nd’s principal inspiration. Forgoing the possibility that they are actually one and the same person (!), I suggest it would be a good idea to invite Cartalucci to contribute to NM. After all, he lives in Bangkok, has strong views on Thai politics and Society and clearly has a faithful following among a certain group of Thais; even Veera Prateepchaikul of the Bangkok Post appears to be an avid admirer! How much better would it be to get it from the horse’s mouth? NM is nothing if not an open forum, but the case in favour of the military regime is clearly poorly represented here. Andrew, Nick, what about it?
Sudah diklarifikasi bahwa itu tidak benar, pada pertemuan dgn duta besar disebutkan bahwa beliau tidak akan menghapus pemilihan langsung tp bagaimana membuat platform agar demokrasi di indonesia berjalan lebih efisien..
Wow Prabowo wants to kill Democracy and his democratic PAN running mate doesn’t know? Quick guys, better tell Hatta Rajasa. Pure hogwash Ed and Marcus. Naughty corner.
That is truly fascinating. Cartalucci posted this diatribe on his Facebook page only yesterday – and the same day, within a matter of hours, exactly the same message is copied wholesale and appears uncredited here on NM. Maybe notdisappointed actually is the moronic Tony Cartalucci (you say he uses multiple aliases). But, bearing in mind Chris Baker’s experience, it seems more likely that nd is merely an avid cut-and-paster without a single thought of his own.
When did Prabowo become a democrat? Was the epiphany when he was in the army (the referendum in East Timor perhaps), in discussions with his former father-in-law and the extended family, in exile in Jordan – or somewhere else?
How does being a professional soldier equate with being a democrat? Commanders are appointed, not elected.
Also what’s corruption and money politics got to do with democracy. They are illegal activities.
Sounds like a snow job. Did Dr Tapsell ask any questions or challenge Prabowo’s comments?
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Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Very altruistic of you to feel you are not in the minority, but at the same time rail against ‘tyranny of the majority’.
Reminds of the Friday Night Live comedian, head of a highly popular junta, that just happens to be afraid of elections.
Anti-democratic? Prabowo’s response
The only way conservatives at best, reactionaries at worst – are going to play the democractic game in these countries with long, deeply-entrenched highly authoritarian traditions, is if they are either forced to, or here in the current election : they can see clear gain from doing so. Prabowo should be given his chance. Indonesia is not Thailand. There’s ONLY ever been ONE sucessful (hugely bloody Indonesian coup. It won’t be easy for Prabowo to overthrow democraksi -even if he gets tempted to try. Today is not Suharto’s Cold War. America’s reaction would likely be very harsh. To say nothing of the very demokrasi-minded HUGE Muslim organisation such as Nahdatul Ulama and Muhamidayah.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Leftist, moi? I was a Thatcherite in my youth! Anti-monarchist? No, I think monarchy still has a useful role to play. Since this is an Aussie site, I might feel differently if I was one too but that seems to have most to do with an understandable search for a affirmation of their own independent national identity. Leastways I don’t think it is
relevant to views about Thailand.
But let’s consider your b├кte noire, Thaksin. Leftist? Hardly! – though I do believe he is the only significant Thai politician who has been prepared to take on Thailand’s huge disparities in wealth, both social and regional. Anti-monarchist? All the evidence is that he, like so many Thais, is absolutely besotted with the monarchy and actually deeply hurt by being represented as anything else.
As for not being in a majority, you are right, because majorities here don’t matter. All that matters here is the quality of the argument. On this subject the only place that the majority does matter is among the people of Thailand. So, tell me, what has been the result of the last six general elections? Now that does matter!
Anyway, it is refreshing to have you post in what are for once, I believe, your own words.
Thailand’s coup: same same but different?
Writing under my clear name I will be a bit careful and don’t name names. Some have argued the miliiyary coup was an intra-elite effort to secure the pork first. In other words, it cut in front of the faction which supported the judicial coup. Unhappy powerful people.
The junta leader never met with his economic advisors. Unhappy business people.
The reshufflement may be blocked. Unhappy military people.
Finally the international response made some people feel a loss of face. Unhappy people.
The honeymoon is over. Now the gloves come off.
Try to read the news if who said what through these lenses, lots of interesting angles appear
Prabowo Subianto: pilihlah aku, tetapi sekali saja
Ya, dengan kediktatoran. Demokrasi semu ala Orde Baru. Pemilu ada, tapi udah ketahuan presidennya. LAWAN!!
Demokrasi Indonesia Dalam Bahaya
[…] р╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕нр╕Ър╕Ир╕▓р╕Б: http://www.newmandala.org/2014/06/21/demokrasi-indonesia-dalam-bahaya/ […]
Prabowo Subianto: pilihlah aku, tetapi sekali saja
wahaha…jualan pro pak jokowi ni….ga lah…takut amat…
The TPP: Najib Razak’s Gordian Knot
This commentary is far from accurate and is full of false claims. Mahathir did not have good relations with the US throughout his twenty-two year reign. That is nonsense. Mahathir hates the US and does not hide it. Nambiar’s voice is the voice of UMNO and is, therefore, the voice of Prime Minister Najib, who’s days are numbered. UMNO/BN lacks any credibility and Nambiar’s father funny optimism, is belied, by a government that is totally lost, beholden to racist Malay NGOs,
can’t decide if it is Islamic or pseudo-secular, does not understand the Malaysian Constitution, and allows the Home Minister and the IGP to utter seditious comments, stating that they serve Malays and Islam, before Malaysia. The TTP is useless. UMNO is finished. Najib is totally worn out, letting Isma and Perkasa do his bidding. Nambiar talks about Malaysia, as if it was a stable, thriving democracy, with no intercultural division, no racism, no threats to expel “Pendatang”, no threats from Malay NGOs to “chop heads in defence of Islam”, no absurd
court decisions regarding the use of the word “Allah”, and no unfair-minded decisions regarding false converts to Islam. Nambiar may be talking about some nation on Planet Earth, but it is most certainly not Malaysia.
Oh, did I mention a missing airplane ?
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
For details of the 2275 number see this post. US Embassy, as we now know, through Wikileaks estimated 1,300 died (see the post for the link and for the below details)
These 1,300 were the extra deaths on top of the normal homicide rate. The Thai police estimated there were 1,329 drug related homicides since February (for the year?) although say police were only responsible for 79.
From the US Embassy, the police themselves, and just some rudimentary maths, around 1,300 people died, but these are drug-related homicides which includes those killed by the police and other drug dealers. The breakdown between the two is what am unsure about.
The TPP: Najib Razak’s Gordian Knot
I find Dr Nambiar’s article very naive.
Is he not aware that there is nothing liberal or egalitarian about the TPP.
It was drawn up by US Multinational Corporations, to give them an unfair advantage over everyone else, be they national government agencies or private citizens.
Any country that is stupid enough to sign this agreement does so at their peril
Anti-democratic? Prabowo’s response
It is not the goats we are worried about, Prabowo, but the chickens. And they have come home to roost. Your non-contiguous and non-linear thought processes as exemplified by your barely coherent comments are proof enough that you lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to lead Indonesia. Oh, and your record on human rights is not exactly stellar.
Thai coup: The debate continues
112 works too well. Most analysts fear for their own safety when mentioning the monarchy (I may be wrong but many foreign analysts seem to be married to a Thai, or anyway want to be able to do field work again one day) so they shut up on this matter. You are one of the rare courageous.
And since most analysts do not mention the monarchy and succession, it tends to be forgotten by most.
Also, many Thai fighting for the democracy and critical of the monarchy still find it hard to negatively speak about their King or Queen even under concealed identity. Years of propaganda and fear is not easily taken away.
I think you know all that already and sorry for my bad englsih.
Prabowo Subianto: vote for me, but just the once
The thing about Indonesian voters who live in Indonesia is, they’re not so much exposed to such analysis or articles that provide logical arguments on the election. I am glad if i can share the benefit of reading the alike articles to others in Indonesia.
Prabowo Subianto: vote for me, but just the once
Thank you very much. Will immediately distribute it via social media.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Fascinating indeed.
I’m sure glad that all the leftist, staunch anti-monarchists, and Chris Baker are the ‘majority’ on this site and can do, posts, and flame as you please. People like myself, Vichai, and Chris Beale are in minority and can truly understand the meaning of ‘tyranny of the majority’ as it’s in full bloom here on NM. It’s actually fun to act as a foil for NMites to hound and badger, as well as to be the subject of the imitable NM double standards . Gives me and you something to do.
But don’t get too excited, your majority is only here and possibly on Andy Mac’s FB; but you are definitely in the minority when it comes to anything having to do with the Kingdom of Thailand. Of the 7 billion inhabitants on this earth, 70 million in the Kingdom – your hundreds or maybe thousands is just like what we Thais colloquy would say – just dogs barking up at airplanes. Your incessant diatribes, whingings, and rants have an audience of only yourselves. Your obsession and hatred of Thai monarchy is so strong that you’d side and turn a blind eye with anyone who’d bring it down.
Do you really think that your little group of leftists can actually make a difference to what’s happening right now in the Kingdom?
Do you really think that your unsubstatiated allegations and accusations will actually undermine the real love and respect accorded to HMK of Thailand?
Do you honestly think like Pavin does that the reds shirts and thaksin are the true savior of and a platform for Democracy in Thailand?
Are you in denial that thaksin and the reds are what’s bad for true Democracy?
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
One discovery leads to another and now I see that this is by no means the first time that notdisappointed has cut and pasted, but not credited, Cartalucci’s FB posts here on NM. Indeed it seems to be his regular practice. I was actually rather complimentary about one piece, deploring only that he spoilt his argument by his irrational hatred of you-know-who. But one of the problems nd has is that, not being the author of the piece, he is incapable of entering into argument or defending them rationally when challenged.It makes the whole exercise rather a waste of time. On another recent occasion nd has cut and pasted – again uncredited – a paper on Coups and Democracy by Nikolay Marinov and Hein Goemans.
Nonetheless it is Cartalucci who appears to be nd’s principal inspiration. Forgoing the possibility that they are actually one and the same person (!), I suggest it would be a good idea to invite Cartalucci to contribute to NM. After all, he lives in Bangkok, has strong views on Thai politics and Society and clearly has a faithful following among a certain group of Thais; even Veera Prateepchaikul of the Bangkok Post appears to be an avid admirer! How much better would it be to get it from the horse’s mouth? NM is nothing if not an open forum, but the case in favour of the military regime is clearly poorly represented here. Andrew, Nick, what about it?
Prabowo Subianto: pilihlah aku, tetapi sekali saja
Sudah diklarifikasi bahwa itu tidak benar, pada pertemuan dgn duta besar disebutkan bahwa beliau tidak akan menghapus pemilihan langsung tp bagaimana membuat platform agar demokrasi di indonesia berjalan lebih efisien..
Prabowo Subianto: vote for me, but just the once
Wow Prabowo wants to kill Democracy and his democratic PAN running mate doesn’t know? Quick guys, better tell Hatta Rajasa. Pure hogwash Ed and Marcus. Naughty corner.
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
That is truly fascinating. Cartalucci posted this diatribe on his Facebook page only yesterday – and the same day, within a matter of hours, exactly the same message is copied wholesale and appears uncredited here on NM. Maybe notdisappointed actually is the moronic Tony Cartalucci (you say he uses multiple aliases). But, bearing in mind Chris Baker’s experience, it seems more likely that nd is merely an avid cut-and-paster without a single thought of his own.
Anti-democratic? Prabowo’s response
When did Prabowo become a democrat? Was the epiphany when he was in the army (the referendum in East Timor perhaps), in discussions with his former father-in-law and the extended family, in exile in Jordan – or somewhere else?
How does being a professional soldier equate with being a democrat? Commanders are appointed, not elected.
Also what’s corruption and money politics got to do with democracy. They are illegal activities.
Sounds like a snow job. Did Dr Tapsell ask any questions or challenge Prabowo’s comments?