So in summary, your argument is that Bill is wealthy and therefore the coup benefits him. And the disenfranchisement of a major section of Thailand’s population helped him sell the pizza that built his fortune. And then you suggest he may even be in cahoots with the Generals.
Interesting, but it seems you forgot to refute what he is suggesting- that Thailand isn’t as dangerous a place to visit as suggested by the media and travel alerts.
Nick, I agree when you say that the role of the media is to be impartial and fair. But that’s the core issue here- accurate representation of events taking place here is lacking in the international media. How many more articles and videos are we going to see titled ‘Thailand on the Brink’ showing photos dating back from last year’s clashes at the stadium and government house.
Those type of articles are sensationalist in nature. How many of us received calls and emails asking if we are ok and if we need to leave the country. How many of our friends, family members, and customers cancelled trips here due to safety concerns. The amount of violence has in fact dropped drastically when compared to the period prior to the coup when protesters were being attacked.
This is what Bill is alluding to when he talks about the disparity between what is reported and the reality on the ground. Yes, he owns hospitality businesses so it is self-serving but that doesn’t change that what he’s saying is correct.
Meanwhile last month in Vietnam roving anti-Chinese mobs burned buildings and attacked and killed people including foreigners. Yet very little coverage in the media and a remarkable absence of travel warnings in the West.
Chris’s comment suggests what is perhaps the most troubling aspect of Matt’s and James’s message: their assumption that Thailand is static, unchanging. Intriguingly, this assumption is shared by die-hard royalists, who fail to understand that mounting a defence of the monarchy as it has operated in the past forty-five is the most efficient way to doom the monarchy. It must adapt, as it has adapted in the past, to survive. And understandings of Thailand like Matt’s and James’s must also evolve, as Thailand changes.
Those with (economic) interests or connection in Indonesia are very well informed surely. Pitching into ‘mysterious’ Indonesia via public media can jeopardized their business (networks) unnecessarily hence the ‘unwillingness’ to expose. Indonesia (Nusantara) has been a ‘magnet’ for businesses since colonial times and still is now. True to her ‘mysterious’ air..many outside are just intricately spun into her knowingly or unknowingly..perhaps $$peaks silently..
[…] Ominous signs for migrant workers in Thailand, Charlie Thame, New Mandala, 15-06-2014http://www.newmandala.org/2014/06/15/ominous-signs-for-migrant-workers-in-thailand/ […]
Matt, your sweeping attempts to insult me and NM contributors generally aside (and particularly in light of your inference that your comments are “quality” ones where others are not):
1. I said nothing about Suthep claiming a dysfunctional government – where do you get that from?
2. Rather I focused on your line claiming “Most Thais have tired of the dysfunctional Governments they have experienced”.
3. I then said “most Thais” is an unjustified thing to say unless there is an election (or I will add now a referendum)and it is the sort of unjustified thing Suthep said. You insist on reusing this term and accuse me of not seeming to know how “most Thais” think. Please go ahead and explain how you know this. You seem to have left it out.
4. You say I claim that “Suthep and the judiciary were the main dysfunctional elements” – where did I say that?
5. I did mention that I thought the Government became dysfunctional due to him and a politicized judiciary etc. This was not the main point I was making as it has been covered lot already however if you want a nice overview of this can I refer you to David Streckfuss’ other fine article last week in the Nikkei Asian Review?
Lastly, let me add to readers generally I am the Tom who posted the first of the two comments from “Tom” above. The second comment is from another person called Tom.
A very good read.
Aside from the threat that Prabowo might have on Indonesia Democracy, voters that incline to vote for Prabowo should also be prepared to get all freedom snatch away from them.
On the “Punching” Incident (not really a punch), Prabowo Party or even himself has threatened to sue people who are distributing this FACTUAL video on online media. Now, he is suing a Facebook user for slandering him.
As far as I am concern, Prabowo is only a Presidential Candidate, he does not hold position in any Government bodies except for his going-to-be-bankrupt company, Kertas Nusantara. The statement on Facebook itself is like someone saying A is an idiot, or B is a moron. But for Prabowo to go all mad and crazy and start suing/threatening people for saying it, I would really wonder what it would be like once he has become the President.
If the citizens are not allowed to post or expressed their own view, how can it be Democracy? What is there to say about respecting Democracy when you are suing, threatening people who are expressing their views?
Maybe Mr. Prabowo has different set of his delusional Democracy (Dictatorship more like it).
Don’t forget that fact that the junta just spent 495 million baht of our tax-payer money to compensate the license holder of the soccer world cup for freeing their exculsive broadcasting right and ordered the telecast of the world cup only on the 2 military owned TV stations (TV 5 and 7). So much for the effort aganist corruption.
“If you want a clue as to how this country operates (when the politicians are reined in) go into any government office (and there are a lot) and look at what people are wearing.How are you going to change that by wearing a red or yellow or pink or multicoloured shirt? It’s time to drop the past, drop the colours and reconcile.”
I guess you should learn first that the colored shirts stand for distinctly different ideologies, state philosophies and quite opposing views on what it means to be Thai in the globalized world. People may drop the colors, but will hardly drop their convictions. Without public debate no reconciliation will ever take place – any possibility of such debate has been made impossible now.
Will a debate be made possible in the planned “reconciliation centers”? Not as long as there still is censorship enforced, and people will have to be scared to speak their mind.
I do not mention Lao nationals because I’m interested in the relation between the crackdown, the special border economic zone in Mae Sot, and migrant zoning plans. I do not have reliable information about what is happening with Lao migrants, but I suspect many were swept up with the Cambodians and Burmese, though are probably underreported as they are not as numerous:
If the cited article were about Thailand’s atrocious treatment of the Rohingya, then a comparison might be made. Then the difference would be that Thailand is more inclined accept economic migrants than it does Rohingya ‘refugees’ (in quotation marks since Thailand does not officially recognise refugees since it has not ratified the 1951 Refugee Convention).
2. It is useful for some in Thailand to play on historical enmities with its neighbours, but not all Thais feel this way. You overstate the case that the Burmese are hated neighbours.
3. While the Karen make up the vast majority of approx. 120,000 residents in camps on the border, I would be grateful if you could provide evidence they constitute up a majority of 1,741,771 Myanmar migrants in Thailand.
I am not aware of recent and reliable data on the ethnic breakdown of Myanmar migrants nationwide, but it certainly varies significantly from region to region. For instance, of 200,000 in Samut Sakhorn 50% are Mon, 30% Burman, and only 10% Karen.
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Center for Refugee and Disaster Response, and Labour Rights Promotion Network. Estimating Labor Trafficking, United Nations Inter-Agency Project on Human Trafficking, 2011. p10.
4. Nancy Hudson-Rodd and I are not the same academic.
5. I am puzzled where or how I ‘refuse to recognise the etio of poverty’ and would be most grateful if you could substantiate this claim.
” but they liked the attempts at tackling corruption.”
Ha Ha Ha Ha… The Military? tackling corruption? Are you for real? This is the most corrupt institution in Thailand. OK, maybe your twisted logic has some credit.. being the most corrupt, they would know a thing or two about corruption.
Good piece. Without stating the obvious, elites like Heinecke may have an interest in the status quo ante, in maintaining their own privilege and financial power through established elite networks. He is not going to rock his boat by claiming fowl after the coup or even in pleading for democracy. More than 50% Thai people actually are not aware of their situation or that they are living under a dictatorial regime and are easily sucked into amaat propaganda and unquestioning high level devotions. Their understanding of democracy is perverted and the perceived failure for democracy (as we hear from the amaat time and again) lies in politicians not in its own institutions. That is why dictatorships are quick to blame corruption on pollies and bad governance as an excuse for maintaining their fascistic ideals. They rule on propaganda, fear and insecurity which they produce and reproduce to serve their own selfish interests. In Thailand the higher amaat/elite is not aligned with the masses and this why we always see de jure endorsement of coups. People have no weapons or access to these, which are used in working to protect higher interests. The whole judiciary, state independent bodies and military work not for the people but these interests. The first constitution post-revolution 1932 in Thailand was never able to be implemented and compromises made ever since to serve certain interests and through the royalist political party, the (un-) Democrat Party. It will take a long time to change attitudes and understanding, even conscientization. That is why the ministry of un’education in Thailand is reintroducing propaganda programs and civic engagement from the 1970s. They know the value of propaganda.
Mr. Heinecke should be hit were it hurts most, ie. his businesses. How about starting a boycott of those businesses where he has a finger in the pie, among others, Mister Donut, The Pizza Company, Burger King, The Four Seasons Hotels, Marriot Resort and Spa and Anantara. To compile a complete list should not be difficult. It was international boycotts that brought South Africa to its knees in the past and paved the way to the first democratic elections in 1994
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Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
So in summary, your argument is that Bill is wealthy and therefore the coup benefits him. And the disenfranchisement of a major section of Thailand’s population helped him sell the pizza that built his fortune. And then you suggest he may even be in cahoots with the Generals.
Interesting, but it seems you forgot to refute what he is suggesting- that Thailand isn’t as dangerous a place to visit as suggested by the media and travel alerts.
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Nick, I agree when you say that the role of the media is to be impartial and fair. But that’s the core issue here- accurate representation of events taking place here is lacking in the international media. How many more articles and videos are we going to see titled ‘Thailand on the Brink’ showing photos dating back from last year’s clashes at the stadium and government house.
Those type of articles are sensationalist in nature. How many of us received calls and emails asking if we are ok and if we need to leave the country. How many of our friends, family members, and customers cancelled trips here due to safety concerns. The amount of violence has in fact dropped drastically when compared to the period prior to the coup when protesters were being attacked.
This is what Bill is alluding to when he talks about the disparity between what is reported and the reality on the ground. Yes, he owns hospitality businesses so it is self-serving but that doesn’t change that what he’s saying is correct.
Meanwhile last month in Vietnam roving anti-Chinese mobs burned buildings and attacked and killed people including foreigners. Yet very little coverage in the media and a remarkable absence of travel warnings in the West.
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Chris’s comment suggests what is perhaps the most troubling aspect of Matt’s and James’s message: their assumption that Thailand is static, unchanging. Intriguingly, this assumption is shared by die-hard royalists, who fail to understand that mounting a defence of the monarchy as it has operated in the past forty-five is the most efficient way to doom the monarchy. It must adapt, as it has adapted in the past, to survive. And understandings of Thailand like Matt’s and James’s must also evolve, as Thailand changes.
Indonesia’s Elections: The View From Next Door
Those with (economic) interests or connection in Indonesia are very well informed surely. Pitching into ‘mysterious’ Indonesia via public media can jeopardized their business (networks) unnecessarily hence the ‘unwillingness’ to expose. Indonesia (Nusantara) has been a ‘magnet’ for businesses since colonial times and still is now. True to her ‘mysterious’ air..many outside are just intricately spun into her knowingly or unknowingly..perhaps $$peaks silently..
Ominous signs for migrant workers in Thailand
[…] Ominous signs for migrant workers in Thailand, Charlie Thame, New Mandala, 15-06-2014http://www.newmandala.org/2014/06/15/ominous-signs-for-migrant-workers-in-thailand/ […]
Ominous signs for migrant workers in Thailand
[…] Finally, Dr Charlie Thame, a Lecturer in Global Studies at Thammasat University, has a post at New Mandala where he states: […]
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Have already started a boycott of Thailand in general… Will not be back until an elected Govt is in place (not an “appointed” democratic Govt)
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Matt, your sweeping attempts to insult me and NM contributors generally aside (and particularly in light of your inference that your comments are “quality” ones where others are not):
1. I said nothing about Suthep claiming a dysfunctional government – where do you get that from?
2. Rather I focused on your line claiming “Most Thais have tired of the dysfunctional Governments they have experienced”.
3. I then said “most Thais” is an unjustified thing to say unless there is an election (or I will add now a referendum)and it is the sort of unjustified thing Suthep said. You insist on reusing this term and accuse me of not seeming to know how “most Thais” think. Please go ahead and explain how you know this. You seem to have left it out.
4. You say I claim that “Suthep and the judiciary were the main dysfunctional elements” – where did I say that?
5. I did mention that I thought the Government became dysfunctional due to him and a politicized judiciary etc. This was not the main point I was making as it has been covered lot already however if you want a nice overview of this can I refer you to David Streckfuss’ other fine article last week in the Nikkei Asian Review?
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Policy-Politics/Thailand-s-polite-coup-should-put-itself-on-right-side-of-history-David-Streckfuss?n_cid=NARAN012
Lastly, let me add to readers generally I am the Tom who posted the first of the two comments from “Tom” above. The second comment is from another person called Tom.
Indonesia’s democracy is in danger
A very good read.
Aside from the threat that Prabowo might have on Indonesia Democracy, voters that incline to vote for Prabowo should also be prepared to get all freedom snatch away from them.
On the “Punching” Incident (not really a punch), Prabowo Party or even himself has threatened to sue people who are distributing this FACTUAL video on online media. Now, he is suing a Facebook user for slandering him.
As far as I am concern, Prabowo is only a Presidential Candidate, he does not hold position in any Government bodies except for his going-to-be-bankrupt company, Kertas Nusantara. The statement on Facebook itself is like someone saying A is an idiot, or B is a moron. But for Prabowo to go all mad and crazy and start suing/threatening people for saying it, I would really wonder what it would be like once he has become the President.
If the citizens are not allowed to post or expressed their own view, how can it be Democracy? What is there to say about respecting Democracy when you are suing, threatening people who are expressing their views?
Maybe Mr. Prabowo has different set of his delusional Democracy (Dictatorship more like it).
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Why? I may not think much of Heinecke’s view but it is hardly of critical importance. Do you have a personal agenda?
Seven questions for Thailand’s military
Dear Jaidee
Don’t forget that fact that the junta just spent 495 million baht of our tax-payer money to compensate the license holder of the soccer world cup for freeing their exculsive broadcasting right and ordered the telecast of the world cup only on the 2 military owned TV stations (TV 5 and 7). So much for the effort aganist corruption.
Prabowo’s dog-whistling
Implying Hamish McDonald was playing devil’s advocate rather than expressing genuine beliefs?
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
“If you want a clue as to how this country operates (when the politicians are reined in) go into any government office (and there are a lot) and look at what people are wearing.How are you going to change that by wearing a red or yellow or pink or multicoloured shirt? It’s time to drop the past, drop the colours and reconcile.”
I guess you should learn first that the colored shirts stand for distinctly different ideologies, state philosophies and quite opposing views on what it means to be Thai in the globalized world. People may drop the colors, but will hardly drop their convictions. Without public debate no reconciliation will ever take place – any possibility of such debate has been made impossible now.
Will a debate be made possible in the planned “reconciliation centers”? Not as long as there still is censorship enforced, and people will have to be scared to speak their mind.
Ominous signs for migrant workers in Thailand
Bialao,
I do not mention Lao nationals because I’m interested in the relation between the crackdown, the special border economic zone in Mae Sot, and migrant zoning plans. I do not have reliable information about what is happening with Lao migrants, but I suspect many were swept up with the Cambodians and Burmese, though are probably underreported as they are not as numerous:
https://twitter.com/RichardBarrow/status/478564697659019264/photo/1
The King Never Smiles?
you can order it on Amazon and have it shipped to Thailand. or buy it in Phnom Penh at Monument Books and bring it back toThailand.
Ominous signs for migrant workers in Thailand
Plan B,
1. By comparing an article on the state-sponsored genocide of the Rohingya and Myanmar migrant workers in Thailand you are making a faulty comparison.
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/97-faulty-comparison
If the cited article were about Thailand’s atrocious treatment of the Rohingya, then a comparison might be made. Then the difference would be that Thailand is more inclined accept economic migrants than it does Rohingya ‘refugees’ (in quotation marks since Thailand does not officially recognise refugees since it has not ratified the 1951 Refugee Convention).
2. It is useful for some in Thailand to play on historical enmities with its neighbours, but not all Thais feel this way. You overstate the case that the Burmese are hated neighbours.
3. While the Karen make up the vast majority of approx. 120,000 residents in camps on the border, I would be grateful if you could provide evidence they constitute up a majority of 1,741,771 Myanmar migrants in Thailand.
Foreign workers in Thailand: t.co/k5V4fv3DMJ
Camp populations: https://t.co/QkUVMgRnaS
I am not aware of recent and reliable data on the ethnic breakdown of Myanmar migrants nationwide, but it certainly varies significantly from region to region. For instance, of 200,000 in Samut Sakhorn 50% are Mon, 30% Burman, and only 10% Karen.
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Center for Refugee and Disaster Response, and Labour Rights Promotion Network. Estimating Labor Trafficking, United Nations Inter-Agency Project on Human Trafficking, 2011. p10.
4. Nancy Hudson-Rodd and I are not the same academic.
5. I am puzzled where or how I ‘refuse to recognise the etio of poverty’ and would be most grateful if you could substantiate this claim.
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
PACO
” but they liked the attempts at tackling corruption.”
Ha Ha Ha Ha… The Military? tackling corruption? Are you for real? This is the most corrupt institution in Thailand. OK, maybe your twisted logic has some credit.. being the most corrupt, they would know a thing or two about corruption.
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Good piece. Without stating the obvious, elites like Heinecke may have an interest in the status quo ante, in maintaining their own privilege and financial power through established elite networks. He is not going to rock his boat by claiming fowl after the coup or even in pleading for democracy. More than 50% Thai people actually are not aware of their situation or that they are living under a dictatorial regime and are easily sucked into amaat propaganda and unquestioning high level devotions. Their understanding of democracy is perverted and the perceived failure for democracy (as we hear from the amaat time and again) lies in politicians not in its own institutions. That is why dictatorships are quick to blame corruption on pollies and bad governance as an excuse for maintaining their fascistic ideals. They rule on propaganda, fear and insecurity which they produce and reproduce to serve their own selfish interests. In Thailand the higher amaat/elite is not aligned with the masses and this why we always see de jure endorsement of coups. People have no weapons or access to these, which are used in working to protect higher interests. The whole judiciary, state independent bodies and military work not for the people but these interests. The first constitution post-revolution 1932 in Thailand was never able to be implemented and compromises made ever since to serve certain interests and through the royalist political party, the (un-) Democrat Party. It will take a long time to change attitudes and understanding, even conscientization. That is why the ministry of un’education in Thailand is reintroducing propaganda programs and civic engagement from the 1970s. They know the value of propaganda.
Indonesia’s democracy is in danger
When has Indonesia’s “democracy” not been in danger, or rather, when has Indonesia had a sustainable democracy ?
Mr. Heinecke cannot have his coup and eat it too
Mr. Heinecke should be hit were it hurts most, ie. his businesses. How about starting a boycott of those businesses where he has a finger in the pie, among others, Mister Donut, The Pizza Company, Burger King, The Four Seasons Hotels, Marriot Resort and Spa and Anantara. To compile a complete list should not be difficult. It was international boycotts that brought South Africa to its knees in the past and paved the way to the first democratic elections in 1994