Not sure if Andrew has spoken with any top military brass over the recent past, but my opine is that the military is not so much worried about a civil war erupting from a coup. I believe its concerns have more to do with being directed not to interfere – yet –
Many speak of civil war. I know a few Red Shirt leaders have spoken in ways that seem scary, but it would be a surprise if civil war actually broke out. I tend to think that instead Thailand’s guiding lights will again find a middle path that leads to more future turmoil in the name of unity.
Sorry for a couple of missing words above, quick typing/no edit button. Thanks to Nick and all my foreign journalist friends who consistently risk personal safety for the benefit of truth. Your eyes and ears are vital in lopsided conflicts where local populations lack power. It is easy to fall to bias when you are among the people – it is because you have a good heart, and while you are embedded on the ground, you feel what is around you.
Bias comes from heart. I just hope that you will embed yourself with different groups long enough to feel what they feel on all sides, and I hope that all foreign journalists will look inside to their personal histories and clean out the historical and cultural biases so that they can write a pure and substantiated report. But in the meantime, the second best scenario is to have biased reporting of all sides.
It is necessary to hear the voice of the Reds. And if all we can get at any one moment is biased reports – if it is the only report at the time, it is worthy – and courageous. This, I consider Representation. At the time this report was written, the Reds needed representation. Thank you.
Sadly, there has been another enforced disappearance of a local activist, this time in western Thailand, linked to natural resources management conflicts in a national park. Unaccountable state and bureaucratic power seems to be a common factor in such disappearances. The failure to suspend or sanction in some way (e.g. move to the normal “inactive post”) Chaiwat Limlikitaksor, the chief of Kaeng Krachan National Park, who was already a suspect in a murder case of another local activist, seems incredible under the circumstances. Human Rights Watch are publicising the case:
Agree, amazing report, Nick, and thanks for being there. Yes, Thai media can be toothless, but as a publisher who has been shut down myself for daring to open up both sides of the truth, I can understand why. Foreign journalists can come to Thailand and write what they want, and leave when they want, but Thais wish to keep the chance to spend their lives here in The Motherland.
I find this report b definitely biased but full of good information. Thus, it is essential reading. But with more objectivity, I could be more comfortable knowing which pieces to believe. And as a reader, after absorbing so many words, one wants to believe – in order to make the effort worthwhile.
One point I strongly agree with:
“The Red Shirts have to be heard, much of what they say is valid criticism, and a contribution to progress in Thailand.”
One thing that shows bias and distracts from the truths presented here:
“To accuse them of simply being tools of Thaksin to get his wealth back, is an extremely dangerous misjudgment based on ideology and not on fact.”
Sorry, Nick, the facts are all over the media, red, yellow, local, and foreign. The Reds are a tool of K Thaksin. He states this himself. They willingly accepted this themselves, declaring it on stage themselves. Once we get over this fact, we can get to the crux of the situation.
K Thaksin was removed by a coup. Yes, this is undemocratic. The Thaksin regime served personal interests. This was proven many times over. The poor of all regions were used for political power of all political parties. So what else is new? Aristotle,once said Democracy can be a dangerous form of government, and works only when all the people are equal in education and morality.
We need to focus more on the solutions than on the divide. The real divide is between good leaders and bad, between service to society and service of self. And the more we fuss over the war, the less energy we have for the peace.
Unbiased consideration of the real needs of society is what is needed here. Where is the list of what the people said need? In two days among the people, nobody talked about WHY they were fighting? Really?
The first question to pose:
“…Can a Thailand be built in which difference of opinion, even when it crosses the boundaries of state ideology at times, can be accepted and not result in people getting killed?”
Yes. We need the ability to question. Both sides right now have closed ears. But closed to tactical leverage. Ideologically, they are closer than everyone thinks.
Everyone would like more education and economic development for all the people. This is the common ground, with common futures, and that is prosperity for all. This is the shared future.
every nation state that is poorer economical in comparison to the richer nation will always be regarded as corrupt/stupid/failure/ useless. but what we forget to consider is that its because of the richer neighbouring countries that exploit the poorer.. thing such as human trafficking exist.. because there is a demand for it by the people who are willing to exploit the poor and vulnerable people. its a shame … complete shame… history always repeat itself so i am sure Burma will be back on its feet again and lets see who is talking then…
Well, one way to stabilise things is to stop the war of words which goad on the hatred.
Like…
“delusional and blinkered views”
We need to keep our eyes on the ball, which is a joint resolution…and an honourable exit strategy for all. And I heard (from foreigners) that some deals may have been struck.
So although it is exciting and entertaining to go on about civil war, this divide and conquer strategy has not worked yet in Thailand. This chance to look down the nose at Thai people battling it out will simper down soon.
I predict a peaceful end to the year’s battles, and a real election next year – and hopefully, we will have a truly democratic election.
He was making a joke. And usually, anyone going in to advise him will end up learning something new themselves. This man is brilliant, he is a ‘listening leader’. Anyone who decides to listen to lesser qualified people (such as me) is a truly humble leader who wishes to absorb all knowledge and opinions.
K Yingluck is also a ‘listening leader’, with intelligent and experienced deputies helping her – they are highly qualified, and quite caring.
We are fortunate at this time to have such good leaders in Thailand, of all sides. I think I may have met them all, at some point. We are lucky to have good hearts and good minds in Thailand. They will figure something out. They are fighting, but Thais love Thais. That is the meaning behind Thai Raks Thai, yes?
That is the point I was trying to make in this page. Even in the thick of battle, Thai people – after a few fusses and errors and shrieks here and there – will find a ‘best way’ somehow. If they don’t this time, it will be the first time. This kind of epic struggle, in any other country, would usually have much worse consequences. By far.
The major players in this Thai power struggle all know each other, they have had meals together. I wish people could give them some breathing room to write together, an honourable exit – and then they can all go back to work for the people of Thailand.
What we should be concentrating on, is the question: What is best for the long term future of the Thai people, and how do we keep personal interests out of this effort.
I had the honour to talk to K Samak for two hours, the month before he became Prime Minister. He also had vision, and very specific ideas about how to achieve that vision. If he had had a free hand to work, he could have accomplished so much. Unfortunately, politics intervened.
Too many sincere talents are being kept from their jobs.
Apparently, the divide in the USA is worse, according to the statistics. But nobody is telling the Americans they do not have a right to their magazines.
I believe there has been a noted rise of the middle classes in Thailand, no?
Just who is poor and who is not…the chicken rice vendor on the sidewalk on Henri Dunant Rd made so much money, that they were able to send two children to university in the US. After graduating, they went back to helping their parents serve customers the plates of chicken rice. It seems that job gets them more money than working in an office.
I laud you, George, for supporting your opinion with your full name. I do beg to differ a bit on a few points, if I might? Yes, it seems some people have cars and some don’t. I don’t. And I do not buy those glossies, they are too expensive for me at this time. But some people do, and the advertising pages in those magazines, well, I guess these are self-supporting eco-systems when the publishers and advertisers are one and the same, or are friends. But if that eco-system is self-sustaining, who should keep them from recycling their money to each other?
I would prefer to focus on the needs of the society for food, security, transportation, education, and equality under the law. Then eventually, more people could afford to buy cars, or homes, or glossies. Or not. I wouldn’t, even if I had the money. I don’t find looking at pictures of painted faces that exciting anymore. I am busy saving up for a very small trip out of the city to breath in some fresh air because of all the pollution from those cars – and from those old busses and motorcycles that escaped environmental regulations somehow.
I think we have bigger problems to deal with, and I am waiting for a functioning government to get in, to deal with them. Functioning, meaning – working for All the people. I am colourblind politically. I want a Working Government. And I am tired of the favourite special interest groups of all sides.
But in the meantime, I suppose it is more entertaining to discuss the power struggles, or to put the blame on this or that evil group of people. There is so much hate floating around…
Forgot to mention: your three pieces of advise are much better that populist policies. Lets hope the leaders who get in after this latest round of musical chairs will think along these lines of infrastructure development, meant to achieve fair distribution – and not populist projects, meant to garner popularity.
It seems I must quote myself in case some people missed it the first time: Thailand is going through a democratic transition that is incredibly civil and peaceful compared to the rest of the world, were other countries to wrestle with the same issues and power plays. In no other country on earth would you find such patience and respect for human life from all sides. They are to be commended.
All sides. There is restraint on all sides, that is Thai culture. As I said, “Compared to the rest of the world”. Using your examples of former Warsaw Pact countries, and South Africa, you might want to go back and count the number of casualites, you might find that Thailand comes up way ahead of those and other countries with the same struggles. Streets ahead. Have you read up on the impending crisis in the Crimea, and the history behind it? The number of dead in South Africa before and even after Nelson Mandela was released? Figures, please. (And your name, please.)
All leaders of all sides of the periodic divides in Thailand are to be commended for their restraint at this time, and during 90% of the power struggles of the past 80 years. All fights have casualties, but in Thailand, there is respect and restraint. That is why we are fortunate.
I doubt people who comment anonymously would stay in a country without restraint.
NOTE:
I do like your three suggestions about closing the economic divide. We are in a political war, but those are excellent points about the economic problem. As soon as the politicians can sort themselves out cocncerning the power struggle, I am sure they will get to work on the necessary economic work. There are some good economists on all sides.
As moral integrity goes Burmese exploiting Burmese are more prevalent than trafficking.
Having for a girl/woman from the rural as helper/servant at a rich person home is considered OK, that even the westerners, NGO as well as diplomat that touted HR at every turn take for granted.
Most of these servants are used and abused as virtual slaves with tragic consequences that can never be justified. Even
HR organizations are by an large purposeful oblivious of these none commercially profitable events,the literature “Burmese Days” attest to this fact.
Until the poverty of the most basic need are met these moral issue/exploitation will continue. unabated.
I think maybe a few readers of this page of comments could have red tinted glasses. Which may account for the view that all others have rose coloured glasses if they have views you have not thought of yet.
Lets be restpectful of other people’s views. We are all looking at the same elephant.
And I believe it would be braver to put your full name, otherwise it is too easy to be disrespectful, yes?
These words from Suthep are not merely creepy but downright fearful. In the tradition of all totalitarian dictators in the wake of the demise of democracy.
There is no Thailand’s Kapal, period. There was/were the potential for producing it in the context of former students who turned guerrilaas and are now leading academicians in Thailand and one abroad in the U.S. but not sure what have happened to their aspirations. In the end, they were seduced by the “business” of the academy.
Congratulations on your always-interesting posts.
I live in Thailand, but am starting to wish I didn’t. This is a police state. You cannot say what you want to say here. Everything is controlled, and if you want to change the way the society is governed you will be sidelined, blacklisted, exiled or killed.
If you go to the Thammasat campus in Bangkok you can see how those who oppose the ammart system can be destroyed.
I don’t think that the Yingluck government is particularly good, but it’s not so bad either. The point is that it was *elected*.
But I suppose if you are among the Bangkok middle class/ammart/court system, you don’t really care who those northern “buffalos” vote for. Those “buffalos” don’t have any rights, do they, seen from the perspective of Ploenchit, Siam Square, Pratunam, etc.
If you want to see some examples of sheer right-wing xenophobia, look at the ThaiVisa site. The most extreme example is someone called “Scamper”, who tries to tell us that all is well in Thailand and that we should leave everything up to the courts to decide. Yeah, right…
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Boom times and boom gates
Is that the social/racial pecking order in MianDian. No wonder these countries (I mean China and Bangladesh of course!) has a lot of problems.
Network monarchy’s twilight
Not sure if Andrew has spoken with any top military brass over the recent past, but my opine is that the military is not so much worried about a civil war erupting from a coup. I believe its concerns have more to do with being directed not to interfere – yet –
Many speak of civil war. I know a few Red Shirt leaders have spoken in ways that seem scary, but it would be a surprise if civil war actually broke out. I tend to think that instead Thailand’s guiding lights will again find a middle path that leads to more future turmoil in the name of unity.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Sorry for a couple of missing words above, quick typing/no edit button. Thanks to Nick and all my foreign journalist friends who consistently risk personal safety for the benefit of truth. Your eyes and ears are vital in lopsided conflicts where local populations lack power. It is easy to fall to bias when you are among the people – it is because you have a good heart, and while you are embedded on the ground, you feel what is around you.
Bias comes from heart. I just hope that you will embed yourself with different groups long enough to feel what they feel on all sides, and I hope that all foreign journalists will look inside to their personal histories and clean out the historical and cultural biases so that they can write a pure and substantiated report. But in the meantime, the second best scenario is to have biased reporting of all sides.
It is necessary to hear the voice of the Reds. And if all we can get at any one moment is biased reports – if it is the only report at the time, it is worthy – and courageous. This, I consider Representation. At the time this report was written, the Reds needed representation. Thank you.
What happened to Sombath Somphone?
Sadly, there has been another enforced disappearance of a local activist, this time in western Thailand, linked to natural resources management conflicts in a national park. Unaccountable state and bureaucratic power seems to be a common factor in such disappearances. The failure to suspend or sanction in some way (e.g. move to the normal “inactive post”) Chaiwat Limlikitaksor, the chief of Kaeng Krachan National Park, who was already a suspect in a murder case of another local activist, seems incredible under the circumstances. Human Rights Watch are publicising the case:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/04/20/thailand-prominent-activist-feared-disappeared
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Agree, amazing report, Nick, and thanks for being there. Yes, Thai media can be toothless, but as a publisher who has been shut down myself for daring to open up both sides of the truth, I can understand why. Foreign journalists can come to Thailand and write what they want, and leave when they want, but Thais wish to keep the chance to spend their lives here in The Motherland.
I find this report b definitely biased but full of good information. Thus, it is essential reading. But with more objectivity, I could be more comfortable knowing which pieces to believe. And as a reader, after absorbing so many words, one wants to believe – in order to make the effort worthwhile.
One point I strongly agree with:
“The Red Shirts have to be heard, much of what they say is valid criticism, and a contribution to progress in Thailand.”
One thing that shows bias and distracts from the truths presented here:
“To accuse them of simply being tools of Thaksin to get his wealth back, is an extremely dangerous misjudgment based on ideology and not on fact.”
Sorry, Nick, the facts are all over the media, red, yellow, local, and foreign. The Reds are a tool of K Thaksin. He states this himself. They willingly accepted this themselves, declaring it on stage themselves. Once we get over this fact, we can get to the crux of the situation.
K Thaksin was removed by a coup. Yes, this is undemocratic. The Thaksin regime served personal interests. This was proven many times over. The poor of all regions were used for political power of all political parties. So what else is new? Aristotle,once said Democracy can be a dangerous form of government, and works only when all the people are equal in education and morality.
We need to focus more on the solutions than on the divide. The real divide is between good leaders and bad, between service to society and service of self. And the more we fuss over the war, the less energy we have for the peace.
Unbiased consideration of the real needs of society is what is needed here. Where is the list of what the people said need? In two days among the people, nobody talked about WHY they were fighting? Really?
The first question to pose:
“…Can a Thailand be built in which difference of opinion, even when it crosses the boundaries of state ideology at times, can be accepted and not result in people getting killed?”
Yes. We need the ability to question. Both sides right now have closed ears. But closed to tactical leverage. Ideologically, they are closer than everyone thinks.
Everyone would like more education and economic development for all the people. This is the common ground, with common futures, and that is prosperity for all. This is the shared future.
Vote buying – commodity or gift?
Conceptualizing Vote Buying as
a Process: An Empirical Study in
Thai Provinces
David A. Owen
Asian Politics and Policy 5 (2), 2013
Boom times and boom gates
every nation state that is poorer economical in comparison to the richer nation will always be regarded as corrupt/stupid/failure/ useless. but what we forget to consider is that its because of the richer neighbouring countries that exploit the poorer.. thing such as human trafficking exist.. because there is a demand for it by the people who are willing to exploit the poor and vulnerable people. its a shame … complete shame… history always repeat itself so i am sure Burma will be back on its feet again and lets see who is talking then…
Paranormal politics
[…] *Published in New Mandala […]
The weakness of the Thai royalists
Well, one way to stabilise things is to stop the war of words which goad on the hatred.
Like…
“delusional and blinkered views”
We need to keep our eyes on the ball, which is a joint resolution…and an honourable exit strategy for all. And I heard (from foreigners) that some deals may have been struck.
So although it is exciting and entertaining to go on about civil war, this divide and conquer strategy has not worked yet in Thailand. This chance to look down the nose at Thai people battling it out will simper down soon.
I predict a peaceful end to the year’s battles, and a real election next year – and hopefully, we will have a truly democratic election.
The weakness of the Thai royalists
He was making a joke. And usually, anyone going in to advise him will end up learning something new themselves. This man is brilliant, he is a ‘listening leader’. Anyone who decides to listen to lesser qualified people (such as me) is a truly humble leader who wishes to absorb all knowledge and opinions.
K Yingluck is also a ‘listening leader’, with intelligent and experienced deputies helping her – they are highly qualified, and quite caring.
We are fortunate at this time to have such good leaders in Thailand, of all sides. I think I may have met them all, at some point. We are lucky to have good hearts and good minds in Thailand. They will figure something out. They are fighting, but Thais love Thais. That is the meaning behind Thai Raks Thai, yes?
That is the point I was trying to make in this page. Even in the thick of battle, Thai people – after a few fusses and errors and shrieks here and there – will find a ‘best way’ somehow. If they don’t this time, it will be the first time. This kind of epic struggle, in any other country, would usually have much worse consequences. By far.
The major players in this Thai power struggle all know each other, they have had meals together. I wish people could give them some breathing room to write together, an honourable exit – and then they can all go back to work for the people of Thailand.
What we should be concentrating on, is the question: What is best for the long term future of the Thai people, and how do we keep personal interests out of this effort.
I had the honour to talk to K Samak for two hours, the month before he became Prime Minister. He also had vision, and very specific ideas about how to achieve that vision. If he had had a free hand to work, he could have accomplished so much. Unfortunately, politics intervened.
Too many sincere talents are being kept from their jobs.
The weakness of the Thai royalists
Apparently, the divide in the USA is worse, according to the statistics. But nobody is telling the Americans they do not have a right to their magazines.
I believe there has been a noted rise of the middle classes in Thailand, no?
Just who is poor and who is not…the chicken rice vendor on the sidewalk on Henri Dunant Rd made so much money, that they were able to send two children to university in the US. After graduating, they went back to helping their parents serve customers the plates of chicken rice. It seems that job gets them more money than working in an office.
The economy is in transition.
The weakness of the Thai royalists
I laud you, George, for supporting your opinion with your full name. I do beg to differ a bit on a few points, if I might? Yes, it seems some people have cars and some don’t. I don’t. And I do not buy those glossies, they are too expensive for me at this time. But some people do, and the advertising pages in those magazines, well, I guess these are self-supporting eco-systems when the publishers and advertisers are one and the same, or are friends. But if that eco-system is self-sustaining, who should keep them from recycling their money to each other?
I would prefer to focus on the needs of the society for food, security, transportation, education, and equality under the law. Then eventually, more people could afford to buy cars, or homes, or glossies. Or not. I wouldn’t, even if I had the money. I don’t find looking at pictures of painted faces that exciting anymore. I am busy saving up for a very small trip out of the city to breath in some fresh air because of all the pollution from those cars – and from those old busses and motorcycles that escaped environmental regulations somehow.
I think we have bigger problems to deal with, and I am waiting for a functioning government to get in, to deal with them. Functioning, meaning – working for All the people. I am colourblind politically. I want a Working Government. And I am tired of the favourite special interest groups of all sides.
But in the meantime, I suppose it is more entertaining to discuss the power struggles, or to put the blame on this or that evil group of people. There is so much hate floating around…
The weakness of the Thai royalists
Forgot to mention: your three pieces of advise are much better that populist policies. Lets hope the leaders who get in after this latest round of musical chairs will think along these lines of infrastructure development, meant to achieve fair distribution – and not populist projects, meant to garner popularity.
The weakness of the Thai royalists
It seems I must quote myself in case some people missed it the first time: Thailand is going through a democratic transition that is incredibly civil and peaceful compared to the rest of the world, were other countries to wrestle with the same issues and power plays. In no other country on earth would you find such patience and respect for human life from all sides. They are to be commended.
All sides. There is restraint on all sides, that is Thai culture. As I said, “Compared to the rest of the world”. Using your examples of former Warsaw Pact countries, and South Africa, you might want to go back and count the number of casualites, you might find that Thailand comes up way ahead of those and other countries with the same struggles. Streets ahead. Have you read up on the impending crisis in the Crimea, and the history behind it? The number of dead in South Africa before and even after Nelson Mandela was released? Figures, please. (And your name, please.)
All leaders of all sides of the periodic divides in Thailand are to be commended for their restraint at this time, and during 90% of the power struggles of the past 80 years. All fights have casualties, but in Thailand, there is respect and restraint. That is why we are fortunate.
I doubt people who comment anonymously would stay in a country without restraint.
NOTE:
I do like your three suggestions about closing the economic divide. We are in a political war, but those are excellent points about the economic problem. As soon as the politicians can sort themselves out cocncerning the power struggle, I am sure they will get to work on the necessary economic work. There are some good economists on all sides.
Boom times and boom gates
As moral integrity goes Burmese exploiting Burmese are more prevalent than trafficking.
Having for a girl/woman from the rural as helper/servant at a rich person home is considered OK, that even the westerners, NGO as well as diplomat that touted HR at every turn take for granted.
Most of these servants are used and abused as virtual slaves with tragic consequences that can never be justified. Even
HR organizations are by an large purposeful oblivious of these none commercially profitable events,the literature “Burmese Days” attest to this fact.
Until the poverty of the most basic need are met these moral issue/exploitation will continue. unabated.
The weakness of the Thai royalists
I think maybe a few readers of this page of comments could have red tinted glasses. Which may account for the view that all others have rose coloured glasses if they have views you have not thought of yet.
Lets be restpectful of other people’s views. We are all looking at the same elephant.
And I believe it would be braver to put your full name, otherwise it is too easy to be disrespectful, yes?
Network monarchy’s twilight
I suggest that those readers who have not already done so would benefit from reading the following article by Dr Nelson, a former colleague at KPI:
Thailand and Thaksin Shinawatra: From Election Triumph to Political Decline
Michael H. Nelson
Australian Association of East Asian Studies 01/2005; 4.
Network monarchy’s twilight
Pooket:
These words from Suthep are not merely creepy but downright fearful. In the tradition of all totalitarian dictators in the wake of the demise of democracy.
On the death of Karpal Singh, MP
There is no Thailand’s Kapal, period. There was/were the potential for producing it in the context of former students who turned guerrilaas and are now leading academicians in Thailand and one abroad in the U.S. but not sure what have happened to their aspirations. In the end, they were seduced by the “business” of the academy.
Vote buying – commodity or gift?
Andrew (if I may),
Congratulations on your always-interesting posts.
I live in Thailand, but am starting to wish I didn’t. This is a police state. You cannot say what you want to say here. Everything is controlled, and if you want to change the way the society is governed you will be sidelined, blacklisted, exiled or killed.
If you go to the Thammasat campus in Bangkok you can see how those who oppose the ammart system can be destroyed.
I don’t think that the Yingluck government is particularly good, but it’s not so bad either. The point is that it was *elected*.
But I suppose if you are among the Bangkok middle class/ammart/court system, you don’t really care who those northern “buffalos” vote for. Those “buffalos” don’t have any rights, do they, seen from the perspective of Ploenchit, Siam Square, Pratunam, etc.
If you want to see some examples of sheer right-wing xenophobia, look at the ThaiVisa site. The most extreme example is someone called “Scamper”, who tries to tell us that all is well in Thailand and that we should leave everything up to the courts to decide. Yeah, right…
best wishes,
S (not Scamper!)