From memory, according to the official bi-partisan parliamentary investigating committee (well-covered by Bangkok’s dailies, so how did you miss it?) they were able to confirm the existence of (at least) five MIB and that all five were associated with the Red Shirts. BTW when discussions have taken a turn to this issue, I have said to Thai friends in semi-public discussions many times “SEUA DANG – SEUA DUM: MEUAN KUN” and it has never been disputed even when Red Shirts or their sympathizers have been in the majority, so it would hardly seem to be a contentious issue. Like Thakin’s (and others’) corruption – it’s just a fact of life.
Well, because recent history has shown that to be unsustainable: Is that obvious enough for you? BTW your attempts at sarcasm are completely wasted on old hands like me: I’ve been in Asia far too long to indulge in that (although I believe it is still something of a national sport in Australia, unfortunately).
To Skeptic: Fact check – I didn’t give anyone a link, and in any case it wasn’t behind a pay wall at SEARC during Songkran when I downloaded it again. While some people say (and perhaps believe)that Thaksin’s decades of corrupt practices are merely an academic point not worthy of practical consideration, I do not.
Do u have any idea what 777 means… Well now you look at Africa and the revolution that is currently taking place. We find ways to change everything globally and we always discover our enemies before they are even aware of our existence. We keep them on a leash and strike at just the right time when least expected.
People vote in Thailand where their “house registration” shows they live. For people from Isaan, this is usually in their home village in Isaan, unless they own property where they live and work (like my wife does, in Nakhon Pathom).
If they were allowed to vote where they work, it would not change things that much, except that I believe it would further weaken the support base of the Democrat Party, because these up-country voters really do not like the urban elites.
Is this purely a red shirt blog or can anybody join in. I don’t think Andrew is talking to the military brass Frank #22, he is not allowed in Thailand.
I appreciate the comment of David Blake
#19
“surely one of the major drawbacks of the present structure of power and electoral representation is that it does not adequately reflect where people actually live and work? This constant polarisation of Bangkok and upcountry North or Isaan is unhealthy, as it does not recognise that the real economic heart of Thailand is actually Bangkok and the Central Plains (for better or, more likely, worse), and if people were allowed to vote where their economic livelihoods existed, then the electoral map of Thailand would change greatly, as it would take political power away from the rotten (depopulated) boroughs of the North and Isaan and redistribute it to the core.”
I get it Richard #8, immediately above and others. Vote buying is fine, as long as we dress it up intellectually as Andrew has done in a convoluted and unreadable piece,. And as long as it is red vote buying
According to the ruthless materialistic “Law of Supply and Demand” Burma might as well give up sovereignty and “surrender” to the insatiable Chinese appetite to officially become a Chinese slave colony (providing much needed jade, copper, marble, timber, electricity, gas, tiger parts, cattle, drugs, dogs, women, …)
Wa and Kokang States are already. Burma is viewed by Peking the way Russia views Crimea.
A credit to the Thai government of the last 15 years, Thailand’s GINI index has improved in the recent years. According to the CIA World’s Facts, Thailand’s GINI index was 53.6 in 2009. In 2011, the World Bank reported an index of inequality to be 39.4. The Crown’s Incomes were excluding from this figure. Imagine what it would be if that incomes were to be part of that calculation. In the US, progress has stalled in the recent years. However, given size of the country, numbers of population, and amounts of social spending, the US’s GINI index is still better than Thailand at 38. The issue is presently being addressed.
Pamela Hongsakul’s string of recent posts, in my opinion, seems to function as damage-control gates. Many posts seem to lack sincerity and show little understanding of the root cause of Thailand’s ongoing problems. No new-elected government will ever solve the problem which had been hampering the progress of the Thai people for generations–the unquestionable royalty and allegiance to the very small group of people who control wealth and wield power and influence. Today, the proletariat has awakened and they now demand what should have been guaranteed to them under the democratic system–freedom of expression and universal human rights. The current spat as of right now involves LM 112. The issue has boiled over to the social media network and now onto the international stage. The vigilante organization established to hunt down those who they are being perceived as violating LM 112 is now in effect. Its leader, Rienthong Nannah and his followers vow to go international to bring people who it deems threatening to the Thai system to face the LM 112 charge. Many Thais are known to invoke violence against others, due to differing opinions. Sadly, a human rights activist, Mai Nueang, was fatally shot. The series of vigilante acts point to fascist ideology which will only bring chaos to the Thai people. As Thailand is a land of my birth, I wish to see it move in the right direction– toward election and democracy. However, truth must be spoken. The fact is that a small group of people, namely the PDRC and its leaders, refuses to talk about the election. They wish for themselves to appoint a Prime Minister rather than allowing the Thai people to choose–in effect subjugating the Thai people into the regime of severe authoritarianism. The world is changing and always had been. Thais are no longer living in the 60’s, 70’s or in the 80’s. The policy of that era will no longer work here. Thais are much more aware of democracy and of their rights as a human being than ever before. They will hold those who preach about democracy to account for their preaching. If one should think that fascist Suthep with ultra-nationalist/ racist, xenophobe flocks on his side will bring stability to Thailand, all I can say to you is “Good Luck.” Do remember that Lanna and Isaan are approximately near the borders of her neighboring countries: China, Burma, and Laos. Anything could happen there.
Have to agree with Plan Z. Look at the wild life being exploited by the law of supply and demand (Chinese again), vigorous economic activity there boosting the local GDP on the border.
Plan B unfortunately as ever ignores the policymakers ‘ wrong set of priorities and simplistically blames the consequent lack of economic development for the vast majority of the people whilst I agree morality depends on a full stomach as the old BSPP (Ma Hsa La) manifesto would have it.
Alas, the military rulers have never put the money where their mouth is, never before, not now, and never will.
All governments everywhere in all ages (except those run by overt force) buy votes. And money changes hands – though while it might be cash passing directly from a politician and his agents to voters in some societies, it will be (for example) parental paid leave, or tax cuts in another by which means a politician indirectly provides services worth cash to the voters.
In many societies there is (arguably) a very strong case (though not an unassailable one) for direct vote buying. In some countries which I will leave for you to nominate but where government is by a wealthy elite, of a wealthy elite and for the same set of self-regarding wankers, but where the elite need – every so often – to be elected, the polls are the one (and often the ONLY) time the rich actually give anything to or do anything for the poor. Under such circumstances then perhaps handing out cash at election time should be made compulsory!! The difference between Thaksin and his enemies appears to be NOT that one bought votes and the other didn’t, but that Yingluck’s brother actually had the effrontery to pass bits of legislation that benefitted the majority and thereby began (at least in a small way) to make a transition between direct (unacceptable to we moral paragons)to indirect vote-buying (our essence of democracy)
Thanks for this, Mr Kong. The perspective on Karpal Singh’s career that you give us is wonderful. And so is having a voice from Ipoh on New Mandala! I hope that you contribute further postings, and soon.
As with other survey options a high margin for error remains a strong possibility. Although 44 million have facebook, the other 140 million voters don’t.
This article offers some accurate insights into the hopes and biases shared by some observers of Indonesian politics, Dirk.
That said, it really is time we put this debate about polling to rest: the surveys were by and large wrong about PDIP, and were well out when it came to PKS and PAN. The Mujani poll (the one Tom Pepinsky cites as being closest to the mark) in fact *significantly* underestimated support for both PKS and PAN, even taking into account its margin of error. To premise this article with the assertion that ‘some polls actually got it right’ is misleading. The polls that we took seriously – those we relied upon for our figures up until election day – proved inaccurate. It seems like wishful thinking to argue otherwise.
‘We’ of course being sequestered intellectuals who in fact have little idea what’s going outside of their own circles, and then are disappointed when ‘the people’ didn’t behave as hoped/expected …nothing new here.
Frank you may well be right. One of the best ways of certainly avoiding civil war – (which would be a disaster) – is for the Democrats to re-engage in the democratic process. They have a once in a generation chance now of clearly legitimately winning enough seats to form a coalition government, courtesy of Yingluck’s rice scheme debacle. They – or their potential allies – could even poll unexpectedly well in some formerly rusted-on Shinawatra strongholds. http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/405935/baac-walks-hat-in-hand
I see that Nelson appears to have got into an online argument with Allen Hicken of Michigan University on the nature and importance of vote-buying but frankly I found it all a bit too academic to sustain my interest.
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Network monarchy’s twilight
From memory, according to the official bi-partisan parliamentary investigating committee (well-covered by Bangkok’s dailies, so how did you miss it?) they were able to confirm the existence of (at least) five MIB and that all five were associated with the Red Shirts. BTW when discussions have taken a turn to this issue, I have said to Thai friends in semi-public discussions many times “SEUA DANG – SEUA DUM: MEUAN KUN” and it has never been disputed even when Red Shirts or their sympathizers have been in the majority, so it would hardly seem to be a contentious issue. Like Thakin’s (and others’) corruption – it’s just a fact of life.
Network monarchy’s twilight
Well, because recent history has shown that to be unsustainable: Is that obvious enough for you? BTW your attempts at sarcasm are completely wasted on old hands like me: I’ve been in Asia far too long to indulge in that (although I believe it is still something of a national sport in Australia, unfortunately).
Network monarchy’s twilight
To Skeptic: Fact check – I didn’t give anyone a link, and in any case it wasn’t behind a pay wall at SEARC during Songkran when I downloaded it again. While some people say (and perhaps believe)that Thaksin’s decades of corrupt practices are merely an academic point not worthy of practical consideration, I do not.
Pesky foreigners
Do u have any idea what 777 means… Well now you look at Africa and the revolution that is currently taking place. We find ways to change everything globally and we always discover our enemies before they are even aware of our existence. We keep them on a leash and strike at just the right time when least expected.
Network monarchy’s twilight
People vote in Thailand where their “house registration” shows they live. For people from Isaan, this is usually in their home village in Isaan, unless they own property where they live and work (like my wife does, in Nakhon Pathom).
If they were allowed to vote where they work, it would not change things that much, except that I believe it would further weaken the support base of the Democrat Party, because these up-country voters really do not like the urban elites.
Network monarchy’s twilight
Is this purely a red shirt blog or can anybody join in. I don’t think Andrew is talking to the military brass Frank #22, he is not allowed in Thailand.
I appreciate the comment of David Blake
#19
“surely one of the major drawbacks of the present structure of power and electoral representation is that it does not adequately reflect where people actually live and work? This constant polarisation of Bangkok and upcountry North or Isaan is unhealthy, as it does not recognise that the real economic heart of Thailand is actually Bangkok and the Central Plains (for better or, more likely, worse), and if people were allowed to vote where their economic livelihoods existed, then the electoral map of Thailand would change greatly, as it would take political power away from the rotten (depopulated) boroughs of the North and Isaan and redistribute it to the core.”
Vote buying – commodity or gift?
I get it Richard #8, immediately above and others. Vote buying is fine, as long as we dress it up intellectually as Andrew has done in a convoluted and unreadable piece,. And as long as it is red vote buying
Boom times and boom gates
According to the ruthless materialistic “Law of Supply and Demand” Burma might as well give up sovereignty and “surrender” to the insatiable Chinese appetite to officially become a Chinese slave colony (providing much needed jade, copper, marble, timber, electricity, gas, tiger parts, cattle, drugs, dogs, women, …)
Wa and Kokang States are already. Burma is viewed by Peking the way Russia views Crimea.
The weakness of the Thai royalists
A credit to the Thai government of the last 15 years, Thailand’s GINI index has improved in the recent years. According to the CIA World’s Facts, Thailand’s GINI index was 53.6 in 2009. In 2011, the World Bank reported an index of inequality to be 39.4. The Crown’s Incomes were excluding from this figure. Imagine what it would be if that incomes were to be part of that calculation. In the US, progress has stalled in the recent years. However, given size of the country, numbers of population, and amounts of social spending, the US’s GINI index is still better than Thailand at 38. The issue is presently being addressed.
More information can be obtained at https://www.cia.gov/library/publication/th
Network monarchy’s twilight
Why would they (the Democrats) risk an election, when they have a tried and tested way of becoming the Govt – without an election?
The whole system in Thailand is so twisted,it defies logic.
Network monarchy’s twilight
Pamela Hongsakul’s string of recent posts, in my opinion, seems to function as damage-control gates. Many posts seem to lack sincerity and show little understanding of the root cause of Thailand’s ongoing problems. No new-elected government will ever solve the problem which had been hampering the progress of the Thai people for generations–the unquestionable royalty and allegiance to the very small group of people who control wealth and wield power and influence. Today, the proletariat has awakened and they now demand what should have been guaranteed to them under the democratic system–freedom of expression and universal human rights. The current spat as of right now involves LM 112. The issue has boiled over to the social media network and now onto the international stage. The vigilante organization established to hunt down those who they are being perceived as violating LM 112 is now in effect. Its leader, Rienthong Nannah and his followers vow to go international to bring people who it deems threatening to the Thai system to face the LM 112 charge. Many Thais are known to invoke violence against others, due to differing opinions. Sadly, a human rights activist, Mai Nueang, was fatally shot. The series of vigilante acts point to fascist ideology which will only bring chaos to the Thai people. As Thailand is a land of my birth, I wish to see it move in the right direction– toward election and democracy. However, truth must be spoken. The fact is that a small group of people, namely the PDRC and its leaders, refuses to talk about the election. They wish for themselves to appoint a Prime Minister rather than allowing the Thai people to choose–in effect subjugating the Thai people into the regime of severe authoritarianism. The world is changing and always had been. Thais are no longer living in the 60’s, 70’s or in the 80’s. The policy of that era will no longer work here. Thais are much more aware of democracy and of their rights as a human being than ever before. They will hold those who preach about democracy to account for their preaching. If one should think that fascist Suthep with ultra-nationalist/ racist, xenophobe flocks on his side will bring stability to Thailand, all I can say to you is “Good Luck.” Do remember that Lanna and Isaan are approximately near the borders of her neighboring countries: China, Burma, and Laos. Anything could happen there.
Boom times and boom gates
Have to agree with Plan Z. Look at the wild life being exploited by the law of supply and demand (Chinese again), vigorous economic activity there boosting the local GDP on the border.
Plan B unfortunately as ever ignores the policymakers ‘ wrong set of priorities and simplistically blames the consequent lack of economic development for the vast majority of the people whilst I agree morality depends on a full stomach as the old BSPP (Ma Hsa La) manifesto would have it.
Alas, the military rulers have never put the money where their mouth is, never before, not now, and never will.
Vote buying – commodity or gift?
All governments everywhere in all ages (except those run by overt force) buy votes. And money changes hands – though while it might be cash passing directly from a politician and his agents to voters in some societies, it will be (for example) parental paid leave, or tax cuts in another by which means a politician indirectly provides services worth cash to the voters.
In many societies there is (arguably) a very strong case (though not an unassailable one) for direct vote buying. In some countries which I will leave for you to nominate but where government is by a wealthy elite, of a wealthy elite and for the same set of self-regarding wankers, but where the elite need – every so often – to be elected, the polls are the one (and often the ONLY) time the rich actually give anything to or do anything for the poor. Under such circumstances then perhaps handing out cash at election time should be made compulsory!! The difference between Thaksin and his enemies appears to be NOT that one bought votes and the other didn’t, but that Yingluck’s brother actually had the effrontery to pass bits of legislation that benefitted the majority and thereby began (at least in a small way) to make a transition between direct (unacceptable to we moral paragons)to indirect vote-buying (our essence of democracy)
Karpal Singh: Tiger and King
Thanks for this, Mr Kong. The perspective on Karpal Singh’s career that you give us is wonderful. And so is having a voice from Ipoh on New Mandala! I hope that you contribute further postings, and soon.
Polls apart
As with other survey options a high margin for error remains a strong possibility. Although 44 million have facebook, the other 140 million voters don’t.
Wishful thinking in the polling age
This article offers some accurate insights into the hopes and biases shared by some observers of Indonesian politics, Dirk.
That said, it really is time we put this debate about polling to rest: the surveys were by and large wrong about PDIP, and were well out when it came to PKS and PAN. The Mujani poll (the one Tom Pepinsky cites as being closest to the mark) in fact *significantly* underestimated support for both PKS and PAN, even taking into account its margin of error. To premise this article with the assertion that ‘some polls actually got it right’ is misleading. The polls that we took seriously – those we relied upon for our figures up until election day – proved inaccurate. It seems like wishful thinking to argue otherwise.
Wishful thinking in the polling age
‘We’ of course being sequestered intellectuals who in fact have little idea what’s going outside of their own circles, and then are disappointed when ‘the people’ didn’t behave as hoped/expected …nothing new here.
Network monarchy’s twilight
Frank you may well be right. One of the best ways of certainly avoiding civil war – (which would be a disaster) – is for the Democrats to re-engage in the democratic process. They have a once in a generation chance now of clearly legitimately winning enough seats to form a coalition government, courtesy of Yingluck’s rice scheme debacle. They – or their potential allies – could even poll unexpectedly well in some formerly rusted-on Shinawatra strongholds. http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/405935/baac-walks-hat-in-hand
Network monarchy’s twilight
I can’t access your link which appears to be behind a pay-wall. That paper was apparently published in 2005. But there is a more recent paper of his, published three years later which you may find interesting:
http://www.newmandala.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/thaksins-triumph.pdf
I see that Nelson appears to have got into an online argument with Allen Hicken of Michigan University on the nature and importance of vote-buying but frankly I found it all a bit too academic to sustain my interest.
Wishful thinking in the polling age
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