If , Vichai N, there is a “patent Red Shirt hatred against the Thai monarchy”, it certainly does deserve research and explanation. Can you, though, suggest how such a research project could be openly carried out and its results published in Thailand?
What a brilliant piece! The problem with whats happening in Malaysia is that the silent majority of real muslims dare not speak up against this obvious political abuse of Islam by the corrupt regime of Najib and his cohorts. The right thinking Muslims must rise with their non Muslims to put the country back on its multicultural and multi religious path towards harmony and focus on the real issues challenging us – Corruption, Economic wastage, Political abuse.
As we go down along a parallel path, have we reached the Point of No Return? If we have, all I can say is that it is a Lose-Lose situation for Malaysia as it was with Spain with much blood-shed, culminating in a purged nation before we can begin anew.
Can we afford for this to happen seeing that we have been overtaken by many of our neighboring nations. We may not be as fortunate as Vietnam or Cambodia in being able to bounce back so quickly.
Appropriately Hemingway said it all with “any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.”
Wonderful article and so accurate the parallels you make! But you know what? The sad thing is that such brutal forced single identity on an entire nation has very serious consequences. Whenever I bring up the subject of race with someone who was born and brought up in Spain, there is immediate (and rapid) shying away from the remotest suggestion that they may have
North African and/or Middle Eastern bloodlines! There are many Spanish people who look no different from Arabs or North Africans. Very sad really. Another sad thing is you get those converts who will become even more violently aggressive towards the very race/religion they converted from to prove they have truly converted.
[…] most obvious source of the problem is simply an inordinate amount of rain. Rainfall has been heavier than normal throughout the watershed of the Chao Phraya and its […]
I forgot to add: Andrew MacGregor Marshall is a latecomer to New Mandala too, and to my knowledge receive no special favors from the Andrew Walker/Nicholas Farrelly duo. According to Boon that Andrew MacGregor Marshall is very very sneaky Scot, isn’t he? …
You’re new to New Mandala Matt-O. ‘Perceived wisdom’ is relative and New Mandala is Andrew Walker’s/Nicholas Farrely’s baby. I get flamed a lot … there will be moments NM will receive surges of posts from Vichai N, and if Andrew Walker wearies and won’t let it pass, no sweat to me. But if Andrew Walker deletes my posts too often, then I’ll just let my prose inspirations pass ….for long spells. Again no sweat to me.
I have no advice for you Matt-O. Except to suggest to remove your preconceptions of what or what would not pass an WalkerFarrelly censor. I don’t think they know either, because it is subjective and your poster may have caught them at their orneriest time (who knows?).
There was a time New Mandala had that bold warning: Only intelligent or thought-provoking or original posters will be allowed, or something to that effect. After repeated and many inane, hostile and “intellectually and ethically deficient” (according to Jaidee) Vichai N posters had been grudgingly passed at NM, Andrew Walker/Nicholas Farrelly capitulated and removed that caveat (Vichai N won again!).
I may not always agree with you but you’ll find that the irony of your comment is lost on the New Mandela censors. (I was going to say”moderators” but i prefer to be accurate)
Go against the perceived wisdom of New Mandela and Andrew McGregor Marshall and you will be fl;amed and receive lots of thumbs downs. If you want a site that allows free speech, this is not it. I’ll post these comments and this whole thread in a different blog where they have no censorship control. They certainly won’t let this comment pass, they are too scared. Walker is known for his lack of balance and intolerance. The other co-founder I don’t know but probably equally bigoted. New Mandela is not regarded as a properly conceived blog by usual university standards.
Tomorrow Kamnan Thep has declared that his next ‘marathon’ along with his rah-rah followers will take him to Thonburi, which is where I live. I saw the remarkable outpouring of welcome by hundreds of thousands of people to the Kamnan’s China Town Sunday (Jan5th) jog … unbelievable sea of people again going out of their way, grinning from ear to ear, to hug the Kamnan and stuff all sorts of banknotes to his wearying two hands. Oddly Kamnan Thep is from the South, he had officially withdrawn from the Democrat Party and his former Democrat Party will no be participating this next election (if it comes). Yet the very vivid demonstration of exuberant affection for Kamnan Thep is astonishing to behold … as he carried on with his cause to topple the ‘House of Tak-SIN’. Is this demonstration by millions of Bangkok city folks against Yingluck’s dubious ‘caretaker’ government anti-democratic, or, democracy at its best? When elections are meaningless, these millions of people are saying, what is the point?
I mention this because Andrew Walker and the anthropologists of New Mandala are probably very perplexed by this odd behaviour by Bangkok city folks. They should be. Because I am. Perplexed yes but not worth the bother of an anthropological research into the odd undemocratic (or is it the other way around?) Bangkok city phenomenon.
Because Andrew Walker and his illustrous research team, (Yes I will now be making a grudging accusation), appear to lean more towards anthropological phenomenon-study of the democractically-minded and long-trodden neglected Red Shirts. That’s Andrew Walker’s choice of course, and, he is of PhD eminence. So I guess I could only complain and sulk.
Also the patent Red Shirt hatred against the Thai Monarchy deserve explaining, deserve research and deserve more exhaustive debate at New Mandala. My suspicion is that the fires of hatred against the Thai Monarchy had been deliberately lit and fed with the toxic Thaksin accelerant of outright lies, half-truths to the Northeastern people just ripe for such demagoguery.
Thank you.
Unfortunately, I am looking for numbers from 2001 to 2006.
I agree it is impossible to know the true account of any of the rich elite of Thailand. It is said that any Thai man of means in Thailand will have 3 accounts. One forthe tax collectors, one for his wife, and the most complete account for himself.
Neptunian I have to thank you for sharing your particular expertise, suggesting your more than academic interest of such worldly matters. If you said the whorehouse is the biggest and with good people and very affordable, I believe you. But I must wonder how Andrew Walker could allow this breach of unwritten rule that commercial advertisements are disallowed at New Mandala.!
Right, Jit, as if the Democrats, who use illegal means of spotlighting (taking over ministries, shutting down airports, their proxies assassinating Red Shirt leaders), will be the real antidote to kleptocracy with their reform plans they’ve outlined in a crystal clear fashion – rather than “reforming” the electoral process to inhibit red shirts and facilitate Democrats taking office henceforth.
Yes, I’m sure we’ll find rule of law more respected under their aegis. They’re not looking to self-enrich, they’re looking to improve the lot of all Thais nationwide. Just look at the number and size of all those big Thai flags they wave! Glad to see you’re not being completely hornswoggled by a man who can’t even spell his own last name correctly.
REally, it seems like a waste of”cyber ink” to talk sense with someone like Vichai. Here are some reasons why.
1. The good people as defined by Vichai – Owner of the largest whorehouse in Bangkok as one.
2. “clean” Suthep as leader.. no need to say more.
3. Never won an election Democrats as legit
Here is one of the “big” reason why Thaksin is so hated by the “good” people above.
By raising the standards of living in the rural areas – Insaan for example, The supply of “cheap” girls for their brothels becomes less and that is not good for the “good” people’s business.
I guess Yingluck would become more palatable to people like Vichai, if she bought a couple of brothels and join the club of “good” people.
BTW, the “good” people do not like the Internet either. It has given rise to “free lancers” in the sex trade, and that is a big NO NO.
“Can anyone disagree with the above? And please don’t come with boring comment saying he is not involved”
I won’t say that, but would like you to query your support for the ever so “clean” democrat version of everything. Not forgetting, of course, that the Democrats ruled Thailand after several coups and did nothing for Thailand but went on a witch hunt to try to get rid of their “enemies”
I think it’s fair enough to say Thaksin’s true agenda is the same as any other politician, to acquire as much power as possible. Every politician is a mixture of predator and benefactor. Democracy is meant to bring out as much of the benefactor in them as possible. How effectively democracy works depends on whether the voters tend to act rationally in their own interest, or whether they are dominated by an infantile, hero-villain view of the world. The more infantile the population is, the more powerful are institutions like Monarchy, and the easier it is for a predatory leader to be elected. As the Thai population grows up, we might expect elected leaders to gradually become more attuned to the welfare of the electors. That is pretty clearly happening, though it appears that the élite-run education system has not been much help. Poor Thais seem to have mainly educated themselves as the number of small and very small businesses has grown. Thaksin has been smart enough to realise this, and may even be smart enough to adapt further as electors become more demanding. Strident criticism from his opponents seems to have forced him to clean up his act (there are few recent scandals). The other side has shown no inclination to adapt to the growing maturity of the Thai masses, and is behaving destructively, much like a large, but small-brained predator that has been outsmarted.
“In my opinion, consociationalism has never worked anywhere, and rule by an elite is not democracy.”
Even in the most democratic societies (Denmark, for example), as soon as one becomes a Prime Minister, one is already a member of an elite class of people, by social status and income. In the nation with the lowest income gap between the most affluent
and the less affluent (probably Norway, or
some other Scandanavian country), the Prime
Minister still makes twice-three times as much money as the average citizen, and CEOs make ten times as much. Nevertheless, the electoral processes in these nations are far more transparent and equitable than in less-democratic societies (90 % of the world).
The ‘best’ democracy will never be idyllic, but as history has demonstrated, Communist alternatives fare much worse (socially, politically and economically).
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How to understand Thailand’s conflict
If , Vichai N, there is a “patent Red Shirt hatred against the Thai monarchy”, it certainly does deserve research and explanation. Can you, though, suggest how such a research project could be openly carried out and its results published in Thailand?
Another big weekend for Thailand
Really, you get criticized and receive thumbs down. That’s what you’re complaining about? …
A Malaysian Inquisition?
What a brilliant piece! The problem with whats happening in Malaysia is that the silent majority of real muslims dare not speak up against this obvious political abuse of Islam by the corrupt regime of Najib and his cohorts. The right thinking Muslims must rise with their non Muslims to put the country back on its multicultural and multi religious path towards harmony and focus on the real issues challenging us – Corruption, Economic wastage, Political abuse.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
As we go down along a parallel path, have we reached the Point of No Return? If we have, all I can say is that it is a Lose-Lose situation for Malaysia as it was with Spain with much blood-shed, culminating in a purged nation before we can begin anew.
Can we afford for this to happen seeing that we have been overtaken by many of our neighboring nations. We may not be as fortunate as Vietnam or Cambodia in being able to bounce back so quickly.
Appropriately Hemingway said it all with “any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.”
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
This is just outright lies, Vichai N. Neither Thaksin nor his followers hate the monarchy. It’s the monarchy that hates them.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
Wonderful article and so accurate the parallels you make! But you know what? The sad thing is that such brutal forced single identity on an entire nation has very serious consequences. Whenever I bring up the subject of race with someone who was born and brought up in Spain, there is immediate (and rapid) shying away from the remotest suggestion that they may have
North African and/or Middle Eastern bloodlines! There are many Spanish people who look no different from Arabs or North Africans. Very sad really. Another sad thing is you get those converts who will become even more violently aggressive towards the very race/religion they converted from to prove they have truly converted.
Thai flood cause revealed: rain!
[…] most obvious source of the problem is simply an inordinate amount of rain. Rainfall has been heavier than normal throughout the watershed of the Chao Phraya and its […]
Another big weekend for Thailand
I forgot to add: Andrew MacGregor Marshall is a latecomer to New Mandala too, and to my knowledge receive no special favors from the Andrew Walker/Nicholas Farrelly duo. According to Boon that Andrew MacGregor Marshall is very very sneaky Scot, isn’t he? …
Another big weekend for Thailand
You’re new to New Mandala Matt-O. ‘Perceived wisdom’ is relative and New Mandala is Andrew Walker’s/Nicholas Farrely’s baby. I get flamed a lot … there will be moments NM will receive surges of posts from Vichai N, and if Andrew Walker wearies and won’t let it pass, no sweat to me. But if Andrew Walker deletes my posts too often, then I’ll just let my prose inspirations pass ….for long spells. Again no sweat to me.
I have no advice for you Matt-O. Except to suggest to remove your preconceptions of what or what would not pass an WalkerFarrelly censor. I don’t think they know either, because it is subjective and your poster may have caught them at their orneriest time (who knows?).
There was a time New Mandala had that bold warning: Only intelligent or thought-provoking or original posters will be allowed, or something to that effect. After repeated and many inane, hostile and “intellectually and ethically deficient” (according to Jaidee) Vichai N posters had been grudgingly passed at NM, Andrew Walker/Nicholas Farrelly capitulated and removed that caveat (Vichai N won again!).
Another big weekend for Thailand
I may not always agree with you but you’ll find that the irony of your comment is lost on the New Mandela censors. (I was going to say”moderators” but i prefer to be accurate)
Go against the perceived wisdom of New Mandela and Andrew McGregor Marshall and you will be fl;amed and receive lots of thumbs downs. If you want a site that allows free speech, this is not it. I’ll post these comments and this whole thread in a different blog where they have no censorship control. They certainly won’t let this comment pass, they are too scared. Walker is known for his lack of balance and intolerance. The other co-founder I don’t know but probably equally bigoted. New Mandela is not regarded as a properly conceived blog by usual university standards.
How bad is Thaksinomics?
” … Unfortunately, I am looking for numbers from 2001 to 2006.”
Well good luck and happy hunting. If you uncover anything juicy, ala National Lottery scandal, Neptunian will be interested to be informed.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
Tomorrow Kamnan Thep has declared that his next ‘marathon’ along with his rah-rah followers will take him to Thonburi, which is where I live. I saw the remarkable outpouring of welcome by hundreds of thousands of people to the Kamnan’s China Town Sunday (Jan5th) jog … unbelievable sea of people again going out of their way, grinning from ear to ear, to hug the Kamnan and stuff all sorts of banknotes to his wearying two hands. Oddly Kamnan Thep is from the South, he had officially withdrawn from the Democrat Party and his former Democrat Party will no be participating this next election (if it comes). Yet the very vivid demonstration of exuberant affection for Kamnan Thep is astonishing to behold … as he carried on with his cause to topple the ‘House of Tak-SIN’. Is this demonstration by millions of Bangkok city folks against Yingluck’s dubious ‘caretaker’ government anti-democratic, or, democracy at its best? When elections are meaningless, these millions of people are saying, what is the point?
I mention this because Andrew Walker and the anthropologists of New Mandala are probably very perplexed by this odd behaviour by Bangkok city folks. They should be. Because I am. Perplexed yes but not worth the bother of an anthropological research into the odd undemocratic (or is it the other way around?) Bangkok city phenomenon.
Because Andrew Walker and his illustrous research team, (Yes I will now be making a grudging accusation), appear to lean more towards anthropological phenomenon-study of the democractically-minded and long-trodden neglected Red Shirts. That’s Andrew Walker’s choice of course, and, he is of PhD eminence. So I guess I could only complain and sulk.
Also the patent Red Shirt hatred against the Thai Monarchy deserve explaining, deserve research and deserve more exhaustive debate at New Mandala. My suspicion is that the fires of hatred against the Thai Monarchy had been deliberately lit and fed with the toxic Thaksin accelerant of outright lies, half-truths to the Northeastern people just ripe for such demagoguery.
How bad is Thaksinomics?
Thank you.
Unfortunately, I am looking for numbers from 2001 to 2006.
I agree it is impossible to know the true account of any of the rich elite of Thailand. It is said that any Thai man of means in Thailand will have 3 accounts. One forthe tax collectors, one for his wife, and the most complete account for himself.
Another big weekend for Thailand
Neptunian I have to thank you for sharing your particular expertise, suggesting your more than academic interest of such worldly matters. If you said the whorehouse is the biggest and with good people and very affordable, I believe you. But I must wonder how Andrew Walker could allow this breach of unwritten rule that commercial advertisements are disallowed at New Mandala.!
Another big weekend for Thailand
Right, Jit, as if the Democrats, who use illegal means of spotlighting (taking over ministries, shutting down airports, their proxies assassinating Red Shirt leaders), will be the real antidote to kleptocracy with their reform plans they’ve outlined in a crystal clear fashion – rather than “reforming” the electoral process to inhibit red shirts and facilitate Democrats taking office henceforth.
Yes, I’m sure we’ll find rule of law more respected under their aegis. They’re not looking to self-enrich, they’re looking to improve the lot of all Thais nationwide. Just look at the number and size of all those big Thai flags they wave! Glad to see you’re not being completely hornswoggled by a man who can’t even spell his own last name correctly.
Another big weekend for Thailand
REally, it seems like a waste of”cyber ink” to talk sense with someone like Vichai. Here are some reasons why.
1. The good people as defined by Vichai – Owner of the largest whorehouse in Bangkok as one.
2. “clean” Suthep as leader.. no need to say more.
3. Never won an election Democrats as legit
Here is one of the “big” reason why Thaksin is so hated by the “good” people above.
By raising the standards of living in the rural areas – Insaan for example, The supply of “cheap” girls for their brothels becomes less and that is not good for the “good” people’s business.
I guess Yingluck would become more palatable to people like Vichai, if she bought a couple of brothels and join the club of “good” people.
BTW, the “good” people do not like the Internet either. It has given rise to “free lancers” in the sex trade, and that is a big NO NO.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
“Can anyone disagree with the above? And please don’t come with boring comment saying he is not involved”
I won’t say that, but would like you to query your support for the ever so “clean” democrat version of everything. Not forgetting, of course, that the Democrats ruled Thailand after several coups and did nothing for Thailand but went on a witch hunt to try to get rid of their “enemies”
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
I think it’s fair enough to say Thaksin’s true agenda is the same as any other politician, to acquire as much power as possible. Every politician is a mixture of predator and benefactor. Democracy is meant to bring out as much of the benefactor in them as possible. How effectively democracy works depends on whether the voters tend to act rationally in their own interest, or whether they are dominated by an infantile, hero-villain view of the world. The more infantile the population is, the more powerful are institutions like Monarchy, and the easier it is for a predatory leader to be elected. As the Thai population grows up, we might expect elected leaders to gradually become more attuned to the welfare of the electors. That is pretty clearly happening, though it appears that the élite-run education system has not been much help. Poor Thais seem to have mainly educated themselves as the number of small and very small businesses has grown. Thaksin has been smart enough to realise this, and may even be smart enough to adapt further as electors become more demanding. Strident criticism from his opponents seems to have forced him to clean up his act (there are few recent scandals). The other side has shown no inclination to adapt to the growing maturity of the Thai masses, and is behaving destructively, much like a large, but small-brained predator that has been outsmarted.
Moving away from the consociational model
“In my opinion, consociationalism has never worked anywhere, and rule by an elite is not democracy.”
Even in the most democratic societies (Denmark, for example), as soon as one becomes a Prime Minister, one is already a member of an elite class of people, by social status and income. In the nation with the lowest income gap between the most affluent
and the less affluent (probably Norway, or
some other Scandanavian country), the Prime
Minister still makes twice-three times as much money as the average citizen, and CEOs make ten times as much. Nevertheless, the electoral processes in these nations are far more transparent and equitable than in less-democratic societies (90 % of the world).
The ‘best’ democracy will never be idyllic, but as history has demonstrated, Communist alternatives fare much worse (socially, politically and economically).
How bad is Thaksinomics?
For a very interesting, a much more rigorous, reflection on Thaksinomics see Tom Pepinsky at http://tompepinsky.com/2014/01/05/thaksinomics-compared/