With regards to my pretense politeness, I believe that it is possible to be civil in a conversation despite having a different opinions. If you don’t believe so, then it is up to you.
In the context of Malaysia, I have to ask you with evidence that Malaysia burns down places of worship for minorities. That is a serious accusation that should not be thrown lightly.
There has been cases of places of worship being torn down, but each individual case is isolated and have different background reasons.
I cite the recent case of the temple in Seksyen 19, Shah Alam. The temple was illegally built on the council’s empty plot. However, the state was willing to negotiate to have it remove to another plot.
I urge you not to put words into my mouth. I have not threaten anyone nor do I plan so.
Dhimmi, a term means protected, is a concept under previous Islamic rules that a non-muslim person who is living in the State and paying a tax.
Modern scholars would argue that a dhimmi is pretty much the same as a citizen. You pay your taxes, and you have your rights guaranteed in the state.
In fact, under the Islamic rule, the minorities are free to practice their religion, customs, own properties and enterprises, and hold their own court (to have their own legal system).
Some even hold office under the Khalifah.
So, why is it derogatory? Pray explain.
Even more importantly, it is a word not currently in use, as we are adopting the Western ideas of state and citizenship instead of the Islamic model.
So, at present, no Buddhists or Hindus in Malaysia are dhimmis. We don’t use the term at all. So, why are we talking about dhimmis at all?
I would like to affirm that I am a registered voter in Malaysia, thank you very much.
And I recognise that there is a distinction being a Muslim anywhere in the world, as being a Chinese anywhere in the world.
Extravagant Chinese culture like Lion Dance and Ghost festivals are not being done in some countries.
I understand that there is a socio-political ramification with embracing Islam, but there must be a distinction between the ramification brought on by Islam itself (meaning that being taught in Islam) and those brought on by the authorities in charge.
Not knowing this, I gather that you are not Malaysian then. BTW, I am not pointing this discussion in any direction. I just want to point out that, this is a very very important distinction between being a Muslim in China vs being a Muslim in Malaysia.
The point I was trying to elucidate there is about the special rights of the Bumiputra is a contentious issue, and such issues may derailed the topic of discussion from one on religion into the politics. I fear continuing on the debate from that angle would be counter productive and not constructive for this conversation.
Your false politeness irritates as much as your false ignorance. You know as well as I that in Malaysia the religious is the political.
And who are you to decide just what discourse is “productive” or not? When considering the many Buddhist, Christian, and Hindu places of worship burnt to the ground when it was felt that these minorities were being too “contentious,” the history behind your not-so-veiled threat can’t be ignored. So kindly do not insult our intelligence, for the import of your words are clear in this context.
nor do I understand why dhimmi is a derogatory term
And that, my friends, is the problem in a nutshell.
I would also like to point that both Arab and Malay culture lost a part of their culture with the advent of Islam when they went against Islamic values.
Main puteri has been banned by Islamic authorities. The Bodleian Library has some examples of amulets used by Malays on their ships.
I would like to point out that all Muslims, not just Malay-Muslims, would object to any spiritual rituals if it has no basis in Islam. That is the concept of shirk in Islam.
As a Muslim, your spiritualism must come from the understanding and belief of the oneness of Allah and He is The Provider and Giver of all sustenance.
Muslims believe the solution and salvation only comes in Islam and surrendering to Allah.
Malays may not believe so.
Nevertheless, this is the limit of tolerance taught in Islam. Any form of cultural practice is acceptable provided that it does not cross this line.
The point I was trying to elucidate there is about the special rights of the Bumiputra is a contentious issue, and such issues may derailed the topic of discussion from one on religion into the politics. I fear continuing on the debate from that angle would be counter productive and not constructive for this conversation.
I would like to point out that I have never own myself a kris, nor do I call any non-Muslims in Malaysia as dhimmis, nor do I know any person in Malaysian referring to anyone as dhimmis, nor do I understand why dhimmi is a derogatory term, which is, I assume, what you meant.
I am not aware simply by adopting Islam confers you the special rights of the Bumiputra, and if point our discussion in that direction, it would be non-constructive in terms of this discussion.
Translation: Don’t get uppity with me, dhimmi, or I’ll be forced to threateningly wave my kris in your face.
Hi, Fahmi: The Hui is considered as a NON-CHINESE ethnic group, specifically designated as such. There is a concept of “separation of culture and religion” in Chinese, which is alien to Malays as they fused their religious practices as part of their culture since adopting Hindu-Buddhism, predating Islam. The Malaysian Chinese express negative connotation on the Malay-Muslim’s “Arabisation” as they believe it is a cultural degradation. (What happens in the Arab world does not exactly garner much admiration!?) The Malay-Muslims would vehemently object to Malaysian Chinese-Muslims’ performing some Chinese cultural/spiritual rituals as un-Islamic. The author seems to be fudging on this issue in his last sentence which duly confuses the readers, including Cik Fahmi. The Chinese believe the problem AND solution lie on one’s culture. The Malays believe THE solution is in Islam. I believe nothing is as simple as such.
Although this is a fascinating article with several glaring errors , comparing Egypt to Thailand blurs the reasons as to why each country is in political turmoil and is really not helpful. Was it written by an apoligist for YL? Every country, excluding the despotic kingdom of Swaziland, has similar problems and can be compared with each other. Bad economy, bad infrastructure, no real health service, military exploitation of politics and economy, dictatorships, religion and race all play a part in the whole of any society. Picking and choosing bits here and there only devalues the real problems faced by individual countries. Please don’t spread the myth that Thailand is like Egypt as it is different in many ways which outweighs the similarities.
I am not aware simply by adopting Islam confers you the special rights of the Bumiputra, and if point our discussion in that direction, it would be non-constructive in terms of this discussion.
To steewolf, and your point is? The examples you have given shows that people from other races, for example, Chinese, may adopt Islam while retaining cultural identity.
The article itself mentioned that Islam in Malaysia is tightly regulated, which in my opinion, can become a major hurdle in universalising Islam in Malaysia, which led to the practice of adding Abdullah to the surname. This practice is not commonly practised in other parts of the world and some, like Dr Mohd Asri, argued to abandon this practice altogether.
Unlike other Muslim minorities in China, the Hui, believed to have origin in Central Asia, affiliated with the Chinese, adopting their cultural practices, inter-marrying Hans and converting the in-laws to Islam. Thus, developed a unique ethnic identity such that the Chinese misnomer Islam as “Hui Jiao”(the religion of Hui). Only in recent years, the local Chinese press in Malaysia replaced this term with “E Si Lan” (Islam).
No one bats an eye when a Chinese adopts Islam (or Christianity, etc.). They would flinch when he wear a songkok. Adding an “Abdullah” to his surname would be an outright INSULT, unless, of course, he cedes to be a Chinese.
I think all readers of NM who are not Malaysian should be aware of this….
There is a hugh difference between being a Muslim in China Vs being a Muslim in Malaysia. In CHina, a muslim is just another person or citizen. In Malaysia, a muslim will become a “Bumiputra” with all kinds of special previlages. However in order to get that, one has to adopt “malay” cultural norms.
For reference, check out all the “Indian Muslim” bumiputras.
Embracing Islam would not mean abandoning ethnic identity. There is a Chinese community in China who embraced Islam for over hundreds of years yet retaining the Chinese identity. In fact, the article mentioned this Community, the Hui people. In fact, some of the kung fu martial arts, one of the most famous cultural legacy of the Chinese, is created by Hui people.
The Chinese hybrid calendar, based on lunar and solar events, is utilitarian and “scientific”. You seemed to confuse it with “the book of common” that determines the “appropriate dates for all human events such as wedding, burial, etc. according to Chinese astrology. The CNY, calculated based on lunar cycle, is equivalent to January 1st. A secular, cultural celebration.
Malaysia celebrates a wide varieties of cultural, ethnic, religious events, amounting to more than twenty holidays per annum. NOT ONE is on the Malay culture. As the Chinese are defined by their culture, embracing Islam would mean abandoning their ethnic identity.
Likewise, many Chinese Malaysian do not know “who” they are as they are moulded or being doctrine from young to be a “freethinker” although some will confessed in their IC that they are Buddhist. So can you blame some of them who achieved their spiritual goal and purpose in Islam?
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
With regards to my pretense politeness, I believe that it is possible to be civil in a conversation despite having a different opinions. If you don’t believe so, then it is up to you.
In the context of Malaysia, I have to ask you with evidence that Malaysia burns down places of worship for minorities. That is a serious accusation that should not be thrown lightly.
There has been cases of places of worship being torn down, but each individual case is isolated and have different background reasons.
I cite the recent case of the temple in Seksyen 19, Shah Alam. The temple was illegally built on the council’s empty plot. However, the state was willing to negotiate to have it remove to another plot.
I urge you not to put words into my mouth. I have not threaten anyone nor do I plan so.
Dhimmi, a term means protected, is a concept under previous Islamic rules that a non-muslim person who is living in the State and paying a tax.
Modern scholars would argue that a dhimmi is pretty much the same as a citizen. You pay your taxes, and you have your rights guaranteed in the state.
In fact, under the Islamic rule, the minorities are free to practice their religion, customs, own properties and enterprises, and hold their own court (to have their own legal system).
Some even hold office under the Khalifah.
So, why is it derogatory? Pray explain.
Even more importantly, it is a word not currently in use, as we are adopting the Western ideas of state and citizenship instead of the Islamic model.
So, at present, no Buddhists or Hindus in Malaysia are dhimmis. We don’t use the term at all. So, why are we talking about dhimmis at all?
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
I would like to affirm that I am a registered voter in Malaysia, thank you very much.
And I recognise that there is a distinction being a Muslim anywhere in the world, as being a Chinese anywhere in the world.
Extravagant Chinese culture like Lion Dance and Ghost festivals are not being done in some countries.
I understand that there is a socio-political ramification with embracing Islam, but there must be a distinction between the ramification brought on by Islam itself (meaning that being taught in Islam) and those brought on by the authorities in charge.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Hai Fahmi,
Not knowing this, I gather that you are not Malaysian then. BTW, I am not pointing this discussion in any direction. I just want to point out that, this is a very very important distinction between being a Muslim in China vs being a Muslim in Malaysia.
Cambodia’s inverted mandala?
[…] Cambodia’s inverted mandala? […]
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Your false politeness irritates as much as your false ignorance. You know as well as I that in Malaysia the religious is the political.
And who are you to decide just what discourse is “productive” or not? When considering the many Buddhist, Christian, and Hindu places of worship burnt to the ground when it was felt that these minorities were being too “contentious,” the history behind your not-so-veiled threat can’t be ignored. So kindly do not insult our intelligence, for the import of your words are clear in this context.
And that, my friends, is the problem in a nutshell.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
I would also like to point that both Arab and Malay culture lost a part of their culture with the advent of Islam when they went against Islamic values.
Main puteri has been banned by Islamic authorities. The Bodleian Library has some examples of amulets used by Malays on their ships.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Thank you, that is enlightening.
I would like to point out that all Muslims, not just Malay-Muslims, would object to any spiritual rituals if it has no basis in Islam. That is the concept of shirk in Islam.
As a Muslim, your spiritualism must come from the understanding and belief of the oneness of Allah and He is The Provider and Giver of all sustenance.
Muslims believe the solution and salvation only comes in Islam and surrendering to Allah.
Malays may not believe so.
Nevertheless, this is the limit of tolerance taught in Islam. Any form of cultural practice is acceptable provided that it does not cross this line.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Dear Lleij,
Huh? As in, what?
The point I was trying to elucidate there is about the special rights of the Bumiputra is a contentious issue, and such issues may derailed the topic of discussion from one on religion into the politics. I fear continuing on the debate from that angle would be counter productive and not constructive for this conversation.
I would like to point out that I have never own myself a kris, nor do I call any non-Muslims in Malaysia as dhimmis, nor do I know any person in Malaysian referring to anyone as dhimmis, nor do I understand why dhimmi is a derogatory term, which is, I assume, what you meant.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
I am not aware simply by adopting Islam confers you the special rights of the Bumiputra, and if point our discussion in that direction, it would be non-constructive in terms of this discussion.
Translation: Don’t get uppity with me, dhimmi, or I’ll be forced to threateningly wave my kris in your face.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Hi, Fahmi: The Hui is considered as a NON-CHINESE ethnic group, specifically designated as such. There is a concept of “separation of culture and religion” in Chinese, which is alien to Malays as they fused their religious practices as part of their culture since adopting Hindu-Buddhism, predating Islam. The Malaysian Chinese express negative connotation on the Malay-Muslim’s “Arabisation” as they believe it is a cultural degradation. (What happens in the Arab world does not exactly garner much admiration!?) The Malay-Muslims would vehemently object to Malaysian Chinese-Muslims’ performing some Chinese cultural/spiritual rituals as un-Islamic. The author seems to be fudging on this issue in his last sentence which duly confuses the readers, including Cik Fahmi. The Chinese believe the problem AND solution lie on one’s culture. The Malays believe THE solution is in Islam. I believe nothing is as simple as such.
The cost of clean politics
Although this is a fascinating article with several glaring errors , comparing Egypt to Thailand blurs the reasons as to why each country is in political turmoil and is really not helpful. Was it written by an apoligist for YL? Every country, excluding the despotic kingdom of Swaziland, has similar problems and can be compared with each other. Bad economy, bad infrastructure, no real health service, military exploitation of politics and economy, dictatorships, religion and race all play a part in the whole of any society. Picking and choosing bits here and there only devalues the real problems faced by individual countries. Please don’t spread the myth that Thailand is like Egypt as it is different in many ways which outweighs the similarities.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
To Neptunian,
I am not aware simply by adopting Islam confers you the special rights of the Bumiputra, and if point our discussion in that direction, it would be non-constructive in terms of this discussion.
To steewolf, and your point is? The examples you have given shows that people from other races, for example, Chinese, may adopt Islam while retaining cultural identity.
The article itself mentioned that Islam in Malaysia is tightly regulated, which in my opinion, can become a major hurdle in universalising Islam in Malaysia, which led to the practice of adding Abdullah to the surname. This practice is not commonly practised in other parts of the world and some, like Dr Mohd Asri, argued to abandon this practice altogether.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Unlike other Muslim minorities in China, the Hui, believed to have origin in Central Asia, affiliated with the Chinese, adopting their cultural practices, inter-marrying Hans and converting the in-laws to Islam. Thus, developed a unique ethnic identity such that the Chinese misnomer Islam as “Hui Jiao”(the religion of Hui). Only in recent years, the local Chinese press in Malaysia replaced this term with “E Si Lan” (Islam).
No one bats an eye when a Chinese adopts Islam (or Christianity, etc.). They would flinch when he wear a songkok. Adding an “Abdullah” to his surname would be an outright INSULT, unless, of course, he cedes to be a Chinese.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
I think all readers of NM who are not Malaysian should be aware of this….
There is a hugh difference between being a Muslim in China Vs being a Muslim in Malaysia. In CHina, a muslim is just another person or citizen. In Malaysia, a muslim will become a “Bumiputra” with all kinds of special previlages. However in order to get that, one has to adopt “malay” cultural norms.
For reference, check out all the “Indian Muslim” bumiputras.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Dear stewoolf,
Embracing Islam would not mean abandoning ethnic identity. There is a Chinese community in China who embraced Islam for over hundreds of years yet retaining the Chinese identity. In fact, the article mentioned this Community, the Hui people. In fact, some of the kung fu martial arts, one of the most famous cultural legacy of the Chinese, is created by Hui people.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
The Chinese hybrid calendar, based on lunar and solar events, is utilitarian and “scientific”. You seemed to confuse it with “the book of common” that determines the “appropriate dates for all human events such as wedding, burial, etc. according to Chinese astrology. The CNY, calculated based on lunar cycle, is equivalent to January 1st. A secular, cultural celebration.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Malaysia celebrates a wide varieties of cultural, ethnic, religious events, amounting to more than twenty holidays per annum. NOT ONE is on the Malay culture. As the Chinese are defined by their culture, embracing Islam would mean abandoning their ethnic identity.
The cost of clean politics
ny-times: can egyt learn from thailand ?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/23/opinion/tepperman-can-egypt-learn-from-thailand.html?smid=fb-share
and another thing to think about :
– King & Queen “no worries”
– Prem don┬┤t want to make politics anymore
– PAD leaders quit their job
– Democrats dismantle themselves,
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Steven, you are right, in which the Chinese calendar is used for fortune telling & cultural, as well as religious & cultural celebrations.
Universalising Islam in Malaysia
Likewise, many Chinese Malaysian do not know “who” they are as they are moulded or being doctrine from young to be a “freethinker” although some will confessed in their IC that they are Buddhist. So can you blame some of them who achieved their spiritual goal and purpose in Islam?