Several years ago, in the Taksin era, I attended a presentation at the Siam Society at which Ammar Siamwalla suggested that the add-on rate for a Thai mega-project was in the range of 10% or 15%. I thought at the time, that’s unfortunate, but what might it be in Chicago or New Orleans? What is it in the domain of weaponry in the U.S., where the beneficiaries include colonel consultants-in-waiting?
I think Acaan Thorn makes a reasonable point. Thailand seems to use a muang lap lae like (р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕е) standard of personal rectitude in reference to official corruption. I guess it’s hard to talk about how much is OK, but … austerity has it’s downside, too.
Bernd,
I agree with you. The problem must be linked to corruption in Thailand. Soon there will be a new leader of the corporation and hopefully things might change. However, when that change occurs how would you deal with institutional corruption? I suggest that my plan is one way of dealing with corruption and needs to be fully looked at and obviously be expanded to become a coherent policy. I just put my brief thoughts on paper for further discussion. I have a fuller version already formulating in my mind. It is no good everyone complaining about corruption when they have not thought of how to tackle it. One just needs to look at all the manifestations of the PAD to understand that they don’t care about corruption, just their idea that the corrupt military are better leaders than democracy.
Read my comments more carefully. Sarawakians feel more Sarawakian than Malaysian is what I said. The right to vote and be (properly) represented is a form of self-determination. This is not equivalent to saying to Sarawak wants to be separated from the federation. Until I see some hard data, I don’t believe any separatist sentiment is a mainstream view. And yes, I am a Sarawakian.
I presume that what Thorn Pitidol really wants to say with this dreck of an article is the Thai people should be thankful: the price of government project(s) corruption has gone down (hallelujah!) from the Thaksin-Potjman 30% take-it-or-leave under-the-table cut … to the Yingluck 25% going rate (if hi-so murmurs and barbershop debates are to be believed). Let me calculate it for Thorn Pitidol, on the basis of Bht 350 billion flood/water management project plus the Baht 2.2 trillion infrastructures (railway + high-speed trains) projects, that 5% savings (from the Yingluck regime corruption rebate) would equal Bht 127.5 billion (or US$4.0 billion plus).
Is that 5% less corruption of approximately US$4.0 billion ‘honesty (opportunity) cost’ Khun Thitiphol?
[…] is of no surprise, therefore, that human rights groups in France and the UK, denounced Thein Sein’s visit and urged Cameron and Hollande to press Thein Sein for concrete actions rather […]
Dear Lynette, are you a Sarawakian? if yes, you certainly do not speak for me. If not, how can you claim to speak for Sarawakian (myself included) that we have no desire to become an independent state? I am quite offended by your statement. I can tell you for a fact that most Sarawak people feel more Sarawakian than Malaysian. And self determination is a universal recognized right under the United Nation charter.
Unfortunately – as the case of Indonesia indicates – larger degrees of provincial autonomy do not reduce the godfathers etc. Most have their base in the province and might be elected a governors. This might as well play a role in the South.
This whole racist mess just does not seem to go away. I always try to point out the fact that there is more genetic diversity in a single horde of chimpanzees than in the whole of humanity, and that all of today’s humanity descend from a tiny band that decided to walk out of Africa (with a miniscule amount of interbreeding with descendents of some homo erectus that decided a bit earlier to go wandering out of there). Racism is simply idiotic.
You are quite right that nowadays there are many tendencies in especially Asia to find solutions to existing problems by having strong leader types.
Unfortunately though i feel that also in Europe these tendencies are on the rise again.
Being in an inter-racial relationship (what a stupid expression!) this makes me quite uncomfortable. The legal hurdles i have to climb now just to be able to move with my family to Europe are beyond believe. Just because i happened not to fall in love with person that is not of western European descent.
Sometimes i think that in Europe we are just a bit more polite with our racism nowadays, but are nevertheless the same.
Don’t try to wriggle your way out of you having made a racist comment here. You didn’t just point out that i am a German, you stated that, if i may remind you, “a German condemning a tiny minority of 1billion Indians for having an infatuation with Hitler seems, well, dripping in irony”.
If you cannot see beyond my nationality in this debate than this betrays a racist attitude.
Racism starts with the kind of attitude you displayed here, consequences only follow such attitudes when individuals are not seen anymore as individuals but judged along ethnic or national entities. You just climbed the first step of that ladder here.
As to your question – while there are elements in the yellow shirts who could be described as fascistic, the PAD, Pitak Siam, etc per se are not fascistic. Certain key indicators are missing in their ideologies to describe them as such, for example the clear leadership principle that is integral part of fascism and national socialism. Also their ultra-royalism stands in conflict with fascist and nazi ideologies.
What is rather more descriptive of these groups is that they have no coherent ideology at all beyond a fuzzy ulra-royalist and extreme nationalist ideology, and their hatred against Thaksin and the Red Shirts.
While Thailand has a certain problem with Thai-centric historiography (see Thongchai’s recent speech), and resulting feelings of national superiority, this has not translated in any recent race based rioting or mass murders (smaller incidents though have taken place).
Even the Yellow Shirts attempted throughout to include ethnic minorities into their movement, which is also contrary to their presumed fascist tendencies.
In India though race (and religion) based rioting and mass slaughter are endemic. In some way the still ongoing cast practice of not just spiritual but also physical purity and exclusion in Hinduism is conductive to such racist tendencies.
The Shiv Sena in India though has always been openly fascistic, or even more extreme. Bal Thackeray has on many occasions stated his admiration for Hitler, and his wish that India should have a system modeled on Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany.
It is more difficult with the BJP. While the ideology they theoretically adhere to – Hindutva – is an ideology of racial superiority. In practice though, while they were in government, they did not follow this. Which, by the way, was strongly criticized by what many assume to have been their parent organization – the RSS.
And no, you assume again, i am neither “the sole source on India”, nor have i stated so anywhere. Read what i write, please, and not what you imagine that i have written, but have not.
What i have written is that i have lifelong family relations with India, and have spent 2 years of my life there. Other than my Indian friends, I have western friends who spent much longer than I in India, speak Hindi fluently (my Hindi was never more than rudimentary, just enough for the most basic survival conversations, and most of that i have forgotten), and know much more than I.
Thanks for raising corruption in Thai society.
Corruption affects all countries. You are correct in your article about Thailand and the perceptions that Thais have.
Until there are real efforts to rid Thailand of corrupt practices they will continue unabated. Corruption is endemic in every layer of Thai society and reaches to the very top. The only Exception being the Royal family. 112 precludes me of saying anything about them.
My simplistic solution is as follows:-
The money wasted by all govts in trying to track down and prosecute offenders of 112 on the internet should go into setting up special courts to deal with petty corrupt officials. These courts should work on the basis of truth commissions.
There should be a financial limit on corruption for these courts. Just say 100,000 Baht. Anything above that amount to be tried in higher courts.
A period of time should be set for everyone to come forward and plead their case. Thus their punishment would be less. All who don’t admit their guilt within the time limit and are found guilty should serve prison sentences.
This is a simplistic solution to the perception and actual corruption taking place.
I know this is unrealistic as there is no political will in this country to solve this problem.
Couple more points – how many years of fascistic military dictatorship has India had since achieving independence?
How many years of fascistic military dictatorship has Thailand had since 1947?
Can we also compare the number of Thai and Indian coups and the number of Thai and Indian constitutions since 1947?
India certainly has its faults and flaws but compared to Thailand its been a beacon of political democracy since the later 1940s, not least the individual Indian states’ ability to elect governments’ independent of central government whilst Thailand still has the vast majority of its regional governors appointed.
Surely you’d recognise that there are more “democrats” in India than in Thailand?
Let’s not leave out Mao Zedong, who headed the deaths of an estimated 18-33 million people during his ‘The Great Leap Forward’. I wonder how many Thais are familiar with the records of Stalin, Mao and Hitler – or Che for that matter – despite the t-shirts.
I live in Bangkok now and from time to time see people wearing Swazticas and hitler clothes…I see shops sell these kinds of flags as well..It is very dissappointing..My conclusion so far is that Thai people are just dumb and they don’t even know what they are doing..It really pisses me off…Lets not forget the thais were allies of japan and germany to some extent during WWII so maybe that factors in to it a bit…I often have to restrain myself from confronting people because i know as a foreinger i will get the short end of any legal or jail situation…Im sick of this hitler and nazi symbols its disguisting
That’s not “racist” and you’ve fallen into Vichai N’s trap of denigrating those who actually suffer the genuine consequences of racism by claiming it happened to you just because someone dared to point out your nationality.
I know all about the BJP and I know all about Gandhi’s comments regarding Hitler and I know all about Narendra Modi. You’re assuming that you’re sole source on India – a rather strange position.
And I’d add that the BJP are more nationalist and fascistic than outright Nazi. They were also elected and then were kicked out by the electorate – they never established a dictatorship.
And if you’re equating the BJP to the Nazis it’s curious that previously you’ve attacked those who’ve called the PAD fascist, always stating “it’s more complicated than that”.
So, I’ll put it to you here – do you consider Pitak Siam, the PAD and all their offshoots fascistic?
The new biopic, the generals permitting, will give no boost to the lot of ordinary folk, only to her ego.
Churchill didn’t think much of the Burmese, period. They weren’t ready to govern themselves according to the great man. Never mind the millennium in history before the British annexed the country. Mind you things have come to such a parlous state that people like Hla Oo got bold and brazen enough to opine that we should never have fought the British for independence. The old colonialist would be smiling in his grave.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
The cost of clean politics
Thai politics are a fight on a dung heap with only one rule: no dung can be thrown at the family sitting on the top.
The cost of clean politics
Several years ago, in the Taksin era, I attended a presentation at the Siam Society at which Ammar Siamwalla suggested that the add-on rate for a Thai mega-project was in the range of 10% or 15%. I thought at the time, that’s unfortunate, but what might it be in Chicago or New Orleans? What is it in the domain of weaponry in the U.S., where the beneficiaries include colonel consultants-in-waiting?
I think Acaan Thorn makes a reasonable point. Thailand seems to use a muang lap lae like (р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕е) standard of personal rectitude in reference to official corruption. I guess it’s hard to talk about how much is OK, but … austerity has it’s downside, too.
The cost of clean politics
Bernd,
I agree with you. The problem must be linked to corruption in Thailand. Soon there will be a new leader of the corporation and hopefully things might change. However, when that change occurs how would you deal with institutional corruption? I suggest that my plan is one way of dealing with corruption and needs to be fully looked at and obviously be expanded to become a coherent policy. I just put my brief thoughts on paper for further discussion. I have a fuller version already formulating in my mind. It is no good everyone complaining about corruption when they have not thought of how to tackle it. One just needs to look at all the manifestations of the PAD to understand that they don’t care about corruption, just their idea that the corrupt military are better leaders than democracy.
Sarawak’s “Independence Day”
Read my comments more carefully. Sarawakians feel more Sarawakian than Malaysian is what I said. The right to vote and be (properly) represented is a form of self-determination. This is not equivalent to saying to Sarawak wants to be separated from the federation. Until I see some hard data, I don’t believe any separatist sentiment is a mainstream view. And yes, I am a Sarawakian.
The cost of clean politics
But Roy – that’s exactly what is written up there – as long as this problem is not solved, there is no end to the corruption ….
The cost of clean politics
I presume that what Thorn Pitidol really wants to say with this dreck of an article is the Thai people should be thankful: the price of government project(s) corruption has gone down (hallelujah!) from the Thaksin-Potjman 30% take-it-or-leave under-the-table cut … to the Yingluck 25% going rate (if hi-so murmurs and barbershop debates are to be believed). Let me calculate it for Thorn Pitidol, on the basis of Bht 350 billion flood/water management project plus the Baht 2.2 trillion infrastructures (railway + high-speed trains) projects, that 5% savings (from the Yingluck regime corruption rebate) would equal Bht 127.5 billion (or US$4.0 billion plus).
Is that 5% less corruption of approximately US$4.0 billion ‘honesty (opportunity) cost’ Khun Thitiphol?
Protesters greet Thein Sein in Britain
[…] is of no surprise, therefore, that human rights groups in France and the UK, denounced Thein Sein’s visit and urged Cameron and Hollande to press Thein Sein for concrete actions rather […]
Sarawak’s “Independence Day”
Dear Lynette, are you a Sarawakian? if yes, you certainly do not speak for me. If not, how can you claim to speak for Sarawakian (myself included) that we have no desire to become an independent state? I am quite offended by your statement. I can tell you for a fact that most Sarawak people feel more Sarawakian than Malaysian. And self determination is a universal recognized right under the United Nation charter.
Finding a solution in Thailand’s deep south
Unfortunately – as the case of Indonesia indicates – larger degrees of provincial autonomy do not reduce the godfathers etc. Most have their base in the province and might be elected a governors. This might as well play a role in the South.
The cost of clean politics
Bernd,
There is a family so pure in Thailand that they are not covered by earthly laws.
Hitler again
This whole racist mess just does not seem to go away. I always try to point out the fact that there is more genetic diversity in a single horde of chimpanzees than in the whole of humanity, and that all of today’s humanity descend from a tiny band that decided to walk out of Africa (with a miniscule amount of interbreeding with descendents of some homo erectus that decided a bit earlier to go wandering out of there). Racism is simply idiotic.
You are quite right that nowadays there are many tendencies in especially Asia to find solutions to existing problems by having strong leader types.
Unfortunately though i feel that also in Europe these tendencies are on the rise again.
Being in an inter-racial relationship (what a stupid expression!) this makes me quite uncomfortable. The legal hurdles i have to climb now just to be able to move with my family to Europe are beyond believe. Just because i happened not to fall in love with person that is not of western European descent.
Sometimes i think that in Europe we are just a bit more polite with our racism nowadays, but are nevertheless the same.
The cost of clean politics
@roy – you should not exclude anyone – no one should be above the law
Hitler again
Don’t try to wriggle your way out of you having made a racist comment here. You didn’t just point out that i am a German, you stated that, if i may remind you, “a German condemning a tiny minority of 1billion Indians for having an infatuation with Hitler seems, well, dripping in irony”.
If you cannot see beyond my nationality in this debate than this betrays a racist attitude.
Racism starts with the kind of attitude you displayed here, consequences only follow such attitudes when individuals are not seen anymore as individuals but judged along ethnic or national entities. You just climbed the first step of that ladder here.
As to your question – while there are elements in the yellow shirts who could be described as fascistic, the PAD, Pitak Siam, etc per se are not fascistic. Certain key indicators are missing in their ideologies to describe them as such, for example the clear leadership principle that is integral part of fascism and national socialism. Also their ultra-royalism stands in conflict with fascist and nazi ideologies.
What is rather more descriptive of these groups is that they have no coherent ideology at all beyond a fuzzy ulra-royalist and extreme nationalist ideology, and their hatred against Thaksin and the Red Shirts.
While Thailand has a certain problem with Thai-centric historiography (see Thongchai’s recent speech), and resulting feelings of national superiority, this has not translated in any recent race based rioting or mass murders (smaller incidents though have taken place).
Even the Yellow Shirts attempted throughout to include ethnic minorities into their movement, which is also contrary to their presumed fascist tendencies.
In India though race (and religion) based rioting and mass slaughter are endemic. In some way the still ongoing cast practice of not just spiritual but also physical purity and exclusion in Hinduism is conductive to such racist tendencies.
The Shiv Sena in India though has always been openly fascistic, or even more extreme. Bal Thackeray has on many occasions stated his admiration for Hitler, and his wish that India should have a system modeled on Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany.
It is more difficult with the BJP. While the ideology they theoretically adhere to – Hindutva – is an ideology of racial superiority. In practice though, while they were in government, they did not follow this. Which, by the way, was strongly criticized by what many assume to have been their parent organization – the RSS.
And no, you assume again, i am neither “the sole source on India”, nor have i stated so anywhere. Read what i write, please, and not what you imagine that i have written, but have not.
What i have written is that i have lifelong family relations with India, and have spent 2 years of my life there. Other than my Indian friends, I have western friends who spent much longer than I in India, speak Hindi fluently (my Hindi was never more than rudimentary, just enough for the most basic survival conversations, and most of that i have forgotten), and know much more than I.
The cost of clean politics
Thanks for raising corruption in Thai society.
Corruption affects all countries. You are correct in your article about Thailand and the perceptions that Thais have.
Until there are real efforts to rid Thailand of corrupt practices they will continue unabated. Corruption is endemic in every layer of Thai society and reaches to the very top. The only Exception being the Royal family. 112 precludes me of saying anything about them.
My simplistic solution is as follows:-
The money wasted by all govts in trying to track down and prosecute offenders of 112 on the internet should go into setting up special courts to deal with petty corrupt officials. These courts should work on the basis of truth commissions.
There should be a financial limit on corruption for these courts. Just say 100,000 Baht. Anything above that amount to be tried in higher courts.
A period of time should be set for everyone to come forward and plead their case. Thus their punishment would be less. All who don’t admit their guilt within the time limit and are found guilty should serve prison sentences.
This is a simplistic solution to the perception and actual corruption taking place.
I know this is unrealistic as there is no political will in this country to solve this problem.
Hitler again
Nick
Couple more points – how many years of fascistic military dictatorship has India had since achieving independence?
How many years of fascistic military dictatorship has Thailand had since 1947?
Can we also compare the number of Thai and Indian coups and the number of Thai and Indian constitutions since 1947?
India certainly has its faults and flaws but compared to Thailand its been a beacon of political democracy since the later 1940s, not least the individual Indian states’ ability to elect governments’ independent of central government whilst Thailand still has the vast majority of its regional governors appointed.
Surely you’d recognise that there are more “democrats” in India than in Thailand?
Hitler again
Let’s not leave out Mao Zedong, who headed the deaths of an estimated 18-33 million people during his ‘The Great Leap Forward’. I wonder how many Thais are familiar with the records of Stalin, Mao and Hitler – or Che for that matter – despite the t-shirts.
Hitler again
I live in Bangkok now and from time to time see people wearing Swazticas and hitler clothes…I see shops sell these kinds of flags as well..It is very dissappointing..My conclusion so far is that Thai people are just dumb and they don’t even know what they are doing..It really pisses me off…Lets not forget the thais were allies of japan and germany to some extent during WWII so maybe that factors in to it a bit…I often have to restrain myself from confronting people because i know as a foreinger i will get the short end of any legal or jail situation…Im sick of this hitler and nazi symbols its disguisting
Hitler again
Nick
No, I didn’t “reduce you to just being a German”.
I simply pointed out that you are a German.
Which you are.
That’s not “racist” and you’ve fallen into Vichai N’s trap of denigrating those who actually suffer the genuine consequences of racism by claiming it happened to you just because someone dared to point out your nationality.
I know all about the BJP and I know all about Gandhi’s comments regarding Hitler and I know all about Narendra Modi. You’re assuming that you’re sole source on India – a rather strange position.
And I’d add that the BJP are more nationalist and fascistic than outright Nazi. They were also elected and then were kicked out by the electorate – they never established a dictatorship.
And if you’re equating the BJP to the Nazis it’s curious that previously you’ve attacked those who’ve called the PAD fascist, always stating “it’s more complicated than that”.
So, I’ll put it to you here – do you consider Pitak Siam, the PAD and all their offshoots fascistic?
Just a Lady – Part I
The new biopic, the generals permitting, will give no boost to the lot of ordinary folk, only to her ego.
Churchill didn’t think much of the Burmese, period. They weren’t ready to govern themselves according to the great man. Never mind the millennium in history before the British annexed the country. Mind you things have come to such a parlous state that people like Hla Oo got bold and brazen enough to opine that we should never have fought the British for independence. The old colonialist would be smiling in his grave.
Thein Sein talks at Chatham House
Link not working, sorry. Indonesia leads the way to…
http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/01/08/indonesia-military-business-reforms-totally-inadequate