Please educate me here Derek. The article above refers to “Burmese government records of Rohingya.” What is the point you are making about British colonial records?
I agree with Anon, this is a nice article.
Now, since Aron ask about those “who get to observe the great show”, here I am.
I live/work in Vientiane since March 2008. I’m currently living just in the front of the Don Chan Island. In the exact middle between the ASEM villa and the Don Chan Palace actually. So I’m really physically in the middle. I can even ear and see the ASEM official cars from my balcony, just few meters away, while I’m writing these words. And as a matter of fact, my work also involve with the Government of Laos (GoL).
It is fair to say that the re-settlement of the villager from the Don Chan island was not the best example of the kind. However, the World Bank did a very good job concerning the re-localisation of the villages of the Nam Theun 2 dam/reservoir. Some expert even qualified it as “worldwide example”.
I also don’t want to argue about the DID of the Don Can island (Development Induced Displacement). I am not qualified to do so and don’t have enough resources as well. However, I know a Lao researcher who’s working on his PhD in Australia. His thesis is build around this sort of matter: http://laophd.com.
I will even go further because I’m reading too much bad things on blog and other social-networks about the GoL. A lot of people accusing the fact that the help can not come from the outside and the inside is not willing to do anything as well. Not enough access to information. Yes, it is hard and challenging. But a lot of people still do good, from both Lao and foreign side. And this kind of bad comments doesn’t help anything beside insulting those who works hard for the well being of their homeland.
The Lao constitution, 44th amendment:
“Lao citizens have the right and freedom of speech, press and assembly; and have the right to set up associations and to stage demonstrations which are not contrary to the laws.” http://www.vientianetimes.org.la/Con_titution/Constitution_LaoPDR.htm
If you think this is a joke, you are wrong:
– lao44.org is the richest database in lao language available
– laoFAB is quite the same but in English
– lao DECIDE info have maps, metadata and GIS (Geographic Information System)
All of that free and publicly available online.
My contention is: I agree and support totally the GoL concerning the ASEM9 summit, the ASEM9 villa and the re-design of the Fa Ngnum Road, Ban That Dam (where I live).
I used to walk my dog on these path all the way on the Don Chan island, before it was fields and doggy liked to jump on the water. During the dry season we would make it half the way to Thailand by the river bank. Today, you have a nice river-side which I enjoy to walk on when relatives come.
And I’m sorry to say so, but many area before this “re-design” was a slum, with gangs and junks. If you have you friend getting beat up by junkies, left for dead on the side on the road at night and have to spend six month in the coma between life and death, maybe you would have another point of view about this matter. Yet, people don’t talk so much about the 300 villagers re-settled but absolutely nobody talk about these slums (among other). I know it may sounds selfish, but I have a wife and kid. I like the “That Dam” area a lot better this way. At least, better than before.
51 nations, all coming with their respective leader and experts, discussing the most controversial topics in a country classified by the UN as “Top must develop”. And everything recorded by 1,000 journalists. Some say it’s even The most important summit in the history of the Lao PDR. Yea, let’s take it easy, that’s true…
I wake up everyday on the early morning, I take my baby boy with me and we go take some fresh air while the dog makes his business. On the opposite side of the street, a Lao soldier in suit/assault riffle. I smile and say “hi”, he smiles back. Then I play with my boy for him to say “hi” as well, but military salute style. The soldier laugh and do The Official salute. I will take that as a friendly attitude, wouldn’t I?
Honestly, I’m even surprise how well the GoL is managing this event. The city is very calm, of course, but no bad impact. I’m totally free to go and back to buy food, diapers (etc.) on the exact same street that the ASEM cars use. And so do all of my neighbors and the rest of the city. The relationship between the living population and the local authority is doing impressively well.
That was my humble opinion, I don’t wish to impose or judge but to give some good press for those who deserves it.
I’m willing to answer further more with the team of asiapacific.anu.edu.au, if they want me too.
If you read my comment again, you will see that I indeed asked whether there might be other original sources. I am now ploughing through the several hundred pages of the NDPD ‘Submission of Monograph’ to the Union Parliament with its 42 annexes, mostly in Burmese.
As regards further research, the 1980 memorandum “The British Military Administration of North Arakan” by Ambassador Peter Murray is quite fascinating. You should read it. It even sent me to study the Bengali language in an attempt to decipher what CFs (Chittagongian men) and CKs (Chittagongian women) in Burma might actually mean. In those days, it seems the ‘Rohingya’ even called themselves ‘CFs’ for short.
Next week, I plan to trace a 1939-1940 report by the Burma Government on ‘Indian’ immigration to Arakan.
Many thanks for your best wishes for my further research. There is so much still to examine. I wish I had your depth of knowledge.
Singaporeans, New Media, Academia, Judiciary are stepping up to the plate.
Legislative Arm is still learning the ropes.
Executive Arm, Civil Service and Mainstream Media are lagging far behind – some in stronger denial than others. Let’s see what lesson GE2015-6 will teach these 3 Musketeers!
Studies in Conflict & Terrorism
Volume 35, Issue 11, 2012, pages 779-809
Becoming Patani Warriors: Individuals and the Insurgent Collective in Southern Thailand
Marc Askew & Sascha Helbardt
Focusing on the case of Thailand’s ongoing insurgency in its southern Malay Muslim majority region, this article examines the circumstances surrounding individual’s choices to engage in violent revolt and their conformity and non-conformity with the norms and disciplines of the movement in which they operate. Insurgent-driven violence in Thailand’s southern border provinces has attracted considerable attention, but little has been published about the people who become “Patani Warriors” (juwae). Based on the authors’ direct encounters with current and former insurgents and study of Thai official documentation and captured insurgent propaganda material, this article presents the most detailed information currently available on southern Thailand’s shadowy fighters. We argue that there is no single type of Malay Muslim insurgent: this variegated reality defies the normative ideals projected in insurgent’s indoctrination material while it also poses a challenge for the Thai authorities to define in simple terms those who oppose the state.
Are we starting yet another round of vilification similar to one seen against ‘anti-sanction’ advocators?
“Sorry to say that you still need to learn a lot. You should raise your voice again when you have full knowledge about Rohingya.”
Please tell us Ko Thein Zan
What do Derek Tonkin need to know more beyond the serious situations on the ground that do not require more
“Polarisation designed to provoke confrontation will not help to resolve what is a very grave problem which needs external help, but not gratuitous intervention.”?
Derek Tonkin has the fortitude to buck the trend against own government stance previously on sanction and now on Rohingya issues indicate a deep understanding that should shame most so called “Burmese”.
“As a Burmese, I certify here that the above facts are absolutely true.”
Does being a Burmese that certified the facts of ongoing tragedy mentioned go beyond “gratuitous intervention”?
The situation on the ground as it is has it root on unimaginable poverty that has been hinted in documentary on prostitution in Bangladesh.
This round of ethnic strife is not going to help with the root cause!
[…] at the Full Gospel Tabernacle, USJ Selangor, Malaysia on November 3, 2012 and first published by The New Mandala. The initial ground-breaking article was entitled Arguing for A Secular State. Like this:LikeBe […]
It does make taxonomic sense, that the Southern insurgency is an internal conflict. It doesn’t explain much, but it is a precise enough designation, and if we think of it that way, we can maybe make ourselves pay attention to the weird painfulness of the whole thing.
One tires of thinking about the South. It just goes on and on. I am out of date and don’t know what I don’t know, but I am starting to look at news again.
Here is something that may help with a little continuity and context for people who are new to this or who, like me, have just not kept up for a couple of years. I don’t present this as authoritative or ideologically on point, but it is researched and rather recent. (http://www.cfr.org/thailand/thailands-secessionist-muslim-insurgency-escalates/p29321)
For ancient history, I think my old blog of cut-and-paste news stories is still extant at http://www.souththailand.org, but the last post was in 2010. I still send somebody $8 a month for the privilege of not deleting it.
Losing only 2 electoral areas to the opposition certainly cannot be called a ‘Dramatic’ setback.Actually they won over 90% of the contested constituencies but with a slight lesser margin.By creating a mirage of huge voter dissatisfaction,the ruling party wants to project an image of a vibrant democracy.In fact ruling party I notice is going extremely ‘soft’ on the opposition.Face the facts, the ruling party really need the opposition,because there are so few of them around if they die off,it will certainly be an embarassment to the ruling party.
“Poor NM seems to have depleted all its previous Burma contributors!”
Improbable as this statement was, it is serious concern for Burma.
It is funny that people keep on saying Burma is so, so poor!
The curse of the uncountable!
Yes. Burma is poor if one looks at countable. Dollars per person, number of cars, high rises, paved roads, megawatts, that all important GDP, so on and so forth. But Burmese are rich in their own way of morality, community spirit,easy contentment, ready smile, observation of social norms,caring for each other, etc. which more than make up for the countable. And the Burmese are losing all of them now,fast.
Not that things do not need to be improved but if things are to improve, it must be only if it does not mean losing any of these uncountable , irreplaceable, precious national characteristics.
To do that, there is one uncountable sorely and sadly missing.There comes your point.
The contributors for a healthy debate.
Here we are in the cusp of momentous change. Not because the country got that “Instant democracy: Just add water, complete with famous CoverGirl”, or military is, if anything, more potent and powerful than ever in Ne Win’s time (something to be proud of?), but because of the invitation by that omnipotent military for the “liberal democracies” into the country.
Here we are,in a world beset by financial crisis on the verge of total monetary collapse with Doomsday Preppers doing better business then ever, and that fact barely covered up by immense concerted western effort which itself is failing,with daily rising debts in all the “Liberal democracies” which they are NEVER going to pay back ever,and the ill effects of the global financial institutions and trade groupings causing more chaos than help so that people are either demonstrating against them or questioning their very existence.
Yet people of Burma are told this is their lucky day, the WB is going to land money! To build trade routes!
Typically such money, which of course is not real money but one of those thin air made up numbers even that 12 year-old canadian girgl knows about,( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5Sc3vWefE ) , goes to whoever is in power and WB’s own “mates” leaving the people of Burma the only benefit of having to pay exorbitant interest and loan money for decades if it is ever paid back.
It may very well be that it is a very , very clever game these people are playing. Highly doubtful to say the least.
But regardless, unless Thein Sein will pay back all the money he takes from anywhere by himself, (the same goes for any one who wants that Pamela Cox’s money), the people who will end up paying back need to know what is being done (stolen) in their name, on what terms and what is involved.
Yes. That is never going to happen. And Aung San Suu Kyi is never going to tell the public what is going on either. She never has, and never will. Highly doubtful she is able to understand herself.
In these dangerous time, where the military is selling out the country or mortgaging the country, taking money which is mainly to benefit the loaners and themselves, there should be at the very least lively and active debates from people who have the knowledge and people who are going to be affected.
The most unhealthy thing of the current situation in Burma is just that.
There is no information of what is going on. And there is no debate. people are simply told that is it.
The very fact that very occasional meagre discussions are made in someone else’s “house” (New Mandala), however welcoming the hosts are, itself is an indictment of the pathetic situation of intellectual bankruptcy of the people of Burma inside and outside the country.
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German expressionism and the Bangkok night
Link to “German Expressionism and the Bangkok Night” talk given at FCCT Oct 19, 2012, by Chris Coles:
http://bangkok-noir.blogspot.com/2012/11/german-expressionism-and-bangkok-night.html
Making Rohingya statelessness
Please educate me here Derek. The article above refers to “Burmese government records of Rohingya.” What is the point you are making about British colonial records?
I guess most readers with knowledge of the region will know of this paper based on British records (http://www.narinjara.com/pdf/Burma%E2%80%99s%20Western%20Border%20as%20Reported%20by%20the%20Diplomatic%20Correspondence.pdf)
Don Chan: once were tomatoes
I agree with Anon, this is a nice article.
Now, since Aron ask about those “who get to observe the great show”, here I am.
I live/work in Vientiane since March 2008. I’m currently living just in the front of the Don Chan Island. In the exact middle between the ASEM villa and the Don Chan Palace actually. So I’m really physically in the middle. I can even ear and see the ASEM official cars from my balcony, just few meters away, while I’m writing these words. And as a matter of fact, my work also involve with the Government of Laos (GoL).
It is fair to say that the re-settlement of the villager from the Don Chan island was not the best example of the kind. However, the World Bank did a very good job concerning the re-localisation of the villages of the Nam Theun 2 dam/reservoir. Some expert even qualified it as “worldwide example”.
I also don’t want to argue about the DID of the Don Can island (Development Induced Displacement). I am not qualified to do so and don’t have enough resources as well. However, I know a Lao researcher who’s working on his PhD in Australia. His thesis is build around this sort of matter: http://laophd.com.
I will even go further because I’m reading too much bad things on blog and other social-networks about the GoL. A lot of people accusing the fact that the help can not come from the outside and the inside is not willing to do anything as well. Not enough access to information. Yes, it is hard and challenging. But a lot of people still do good, from both Lao and foreign side. And this kind of bad comments doesn’t help anything beside insulting those who works hard for the well being of their homeland.
The Lao constitution, 44th amendment:
“Lao citizens have the right and freedom of speech, press and assembly; and have the right to set up associations and to stage demonstrations which are not contrary to the laws.”
http://www.vientianetimes.org.la/Con_titution/Constitution_LaoPDR.htm
If you think this is a joke, you are wrong:
– lao44.org is the richest database in lao language available
– laoFAB is quite the same but in English
– lao DECIDE info have maps, metadata and GIS (Geographic Information System)
All of that free and publicly available online.
My contention is: I agree and support totally the GoL concerning the ASEM9 summit, the ASEM9 villa and the re-design of the Fa Ngnum Road, Ban That Dam (where I live).
I used to walk my dog on these path all the way on the Don Chan island, before it was fields and doggy liked to jump on the water. During the dry season we would make it half the way to Thailand by the river bank. Today, you have a nice river-side which I enjoy to walk on when relatives come.
And I’m sorry to say so, but many area before this “re-design” was a slum, with gangs and junks. If you have you friend getting beat up by junkies, left for dead on the side on the road at night and have to spend six month in the coma between life and death, maybe you would have another point of view about this matter. Yet, people don’t talk so much about the 300 villagers re-settled but absolutely nobody talk about these slums (among other). I know it may sounds selfish, but I have a wife and kid. I like the “That Dam” area a lot better this way. At least, better than before.
51 nations, all coming with their respective leader and experts, discussing the most controversial topics in a country classified by the UN as “Top must develop”. And everything recorded by 1,000 journalists. Some say it’s even The most important summit in the history of the Lao PDR. Yea, let’s take it easy, that’s true…
I wake up everyday on the early morning, I take my baby boy with me and we go take some fresh air while the dog makes his business. On the opposite side of the street, a Lao soldier in suit/assault riffle. I smile and say “hi”, he smiles back. Then I play with my boy for him to say “hi” as well, but military salute style. The soldier laugh and do The Official salute. I will take that as a friendly attitude, wouldn’t I?
Honestly, I’m even surprise how well the GoL is managing this event. The city is very calm, of course, but no bad impact. I’m totally free to go and back to buy food, diapers (etc.) on the exact same street that the ASEM cars use. And so do all of my neighbors and the rest of the city. The relationship between the living population and the local authority is doing impressively well.
That was my humble opinion, I don’t wish to impose or judge but to give some good press for those who deserves it.
I’m willing to answer further more with the team of asiapacific.anu.edu.au, if they want me too.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Thein Zan
If you read my comment again, you will see that I indeed asked whether there might be other original sources. I am now ploughing through the several hundred pages of the NDPD ‘Submission of Monograph’ to the Union Parliament with its 42 annexes, mostly in Burmese.
As regards further research, the 1980 memorandum “The British Military Administration of North Arakan” by Ambassador Peter Murray is quite fascinating. You should read it. It even sent me to study the Bengali language in an attempt to decipher what CFs (Chittagongian men) and CKs (Chittagongian women) in Burma might actually mean. In those days, it seems the ‘Rohingya’ even called themselves ‘CFs’ for short.
Next week, I plan to trace a 1939-1940 report by the Burma Government on ‘Indian’ immigration to Arakan.
Many thanks for your best wishes for my further research. There is so much still to examine. I wish I had your depth of knowledge.
In the shadow of strongmen
Singaporeans, New Media, Academia, Judiciary are stepping up to the plate.
Legislative Arm is still learning the ropes.
Executive Arm, Civil Service and Mainstream Media are lagging far behind – some in stronger denial than others. Let’s see what lesson GE2015-6 will teach these 3 Musketeers!
Thailand’s internal armed conflict
For a new article, see
Studies in Conflict & Terrorism
Volume 35, Issue 11, 2012, pages 779-809
Becoming Patani Warriors: Individuals and the Insurgent Collective in Southern Thailand
Marc Askew & Sascha Helbardt
Focusing on the case of Thailand’s ongoing insurgency in its southern Malay Muslim majority region, this article examines the circumstances surrounding individual’s choices to engage in violent revolt and their conformity and non-conformity with the norms and disciplines of the movement in which they operate. Insurgent-driven violence in Thailand’s southern border provinces has attracted considerable attention, but little has been published about the people who become “Patani Warriors” (juwae). Based on the authors’ direct encounters with current and former insurgents and study of Thai official documentation and captured insurgent propaganda material, this article presents the most detailed information currently available on southern Thailand’s shadowy fighters. We argue that there is no single type of Malay Muslim insurgent: this variegated reality defies the normative ideals projected in insurgent’s indoctrination material while it also poses a challenge for the Thai authorities to define in simple terms those who oppose the state.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Are we starting yet another round of vilification similar to one seen against ‘anti-sanction’ advocators?
“Sorry to say that you still need to learn a lot. You should raise your voice again when you have full knowledge about Rohingya.”
Please tell us Ko Thein Zan
What do Derek Tonkin need to know more beyond the serious situations on the ground that do not require more
“Polarisation designed to provoke confrontation will not help to resolve what is a very grave problem which needs external help, but not gratuitous intervention.”?
Derek Tonkin has the fortitude to buck the trend against own government stance previously on sanction and now on Rohingya issues indicate a deep understanding that should shame most so called “Burmese”.
“As a Burmese, I certify here that the above facts are absolutely true.”
Does being a Burmese that certified the facts of ongoing tragedy mentioned go beyond “gratuitous intervention”?
The situation on the ground as it is has it root on unimaginable poverty that has been hinted in documentary on prostitution in Bangladesh.
This round of ethnic strife is not going to help with the root cause!
Making Rohingya statelessness
There was no such “Motherland”, ie. country as Bangla Desh or East Pakistan in 1942.
Malaysia – revisiting the secular state debate
[…] at the Full Gospel Tabernacle, USJ Selangor, Malaysia on November 3, 2012 and first published by The New Mandala. The initial ground-breaking article was entitled Arguing for A Secular State. Like this:LikeBe […]
Thailand’s internal armed conflict
It does make taxonomic sense, that the Southern insurgency is an internal conflict. It doesn’t explain much, but it is a precise enough designation, and if we think of it that way, we can maybe make ourselves pay attention to the weird painfulness of the whole thing.
One tires of thinking about the South. It just goes on and on. I am out of date and don’t know what I don’t know, but I am starting to look at news again.
Here is something that may help with a little continuity and context for people who are new to this or who, like me, have just not kept up for a couple of years. I don’t present this as authoritative or ideologically on point, but it is researched and rather recent. (http://www.cfr.org/thailand/thailands-secessionist-muslim-insurgency-escalates/p29321)
And I notice that Isara News (http://www.isranews.org/south-news.html) has a stack of articles of fairly recent vintage.
And here is Bangkok Pundit responding to a recent innovation in the violence: http://asiancorrespondent.com/91036/friday-trading-under-threat-from-insurgents-in-thailands-deep-south/.
For ancient history, I think my old blog of cut-and-paste news stories is still extant at http://www.souththailand.org, but the last post was in 2010. I still send somebody $8 a month for the privilege of not deleting it.
New Mandala site upgrade
hehe. A classic ‘out’. Who said this forum is losing it’s lustre? Thanks for coming, Annie.
Malaysia – revisiting the secular state debate
Such a clearly-defined and well-argued case for secular laws and democracy that there is no further doubt but to agree with it.
If only PAS and all Islamists would have such a strong conviction for a secular system of governance instead of a religious one.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Derek,
Sorry to say that you still need to learn a lot. You should raise your voice again when you have full knowledge about Rohingya.
As a Burmese, I certify here that the above facts are absolutely true.
Good luck with your research.
Splits in the Singapore elite
Losing only 2 electoral areas to the opposition certainly cannot be called a ‘Dramatic’ setback.Actually they won over 90% of the contested constituencies but with a slight lesser margin.By creating a mirage of huge voter dissatisfaction,the ruling party wants to project an image of a vibrant democracy.In fact ruling party I notice is going extremely ‘soft’ on the opposition.Face the facts, the ruling party really need the opposition,because there are so few of them around if they die off,it will certainly be an embarassment to the ruling party.
Kachin affair is a Bamar affair
U Aung Moe,
“Poor NM seems to have depleted all its previous Burma contributors!”
Improbable as this statement was, it is serious concern for Burma.
It is funny that people keep on saying Burma is so, so poor!
The curse of the uncountable!
Yes. Burma is poor if one looks at countable. Dollars per person, number of cars, high rises, paved roads, megawatts, that all important GDP, so on and so forth. But Burmese are rich in their own way of morality, community spirit,easy contentment, ready smile, observation of social norms,caring for each other, etc. which more than make up for the countable. And the Burmese are losing all of them now,fast.
Not that things do not need to be improved but if things are to improve, it must be only if it does not mean losing any of these uncountable , irreplaceable, precious national characteristics.
To do that, there is one uncountable sorely and sadly missing.There comes your point.
The contributors for a healthy debate.
Here we are in the cusp of momentous change. Not because the country got that “Instant democracy: Just add water, complete with famous CoverGirl”, or military is, if anything, more potent and powerful than ever in Ne Win’s time (something to be proud of?), but because of the invitation by that omnipotent military for the “liberal democracies” into the country.
Here we are,in a world beset by financial crisis on the verge of total monetary collapse with Doomsday Preppers doing better business then ever, and that fact barely covered up by immense concerted western effort which itself is failing,with daily rising debts in all the “Liberal democracies” which they are NEVER going to pay back ever,and the ill effects of the global financial institutions and trade groupings causing more chaos than help so that people are either demonstrating against them or questioning their very existence.
Yet people of Burma are told this is their lucky day, the WB is going to land money! To build trade routes!
Typically such money, which of course is not real money but one of those thin air made up numbers even that 12 year-old canadian girgl knows about,( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5Sc3vWefE ) , goes to whoever is in power and WB’s own “mates” leaving the people of Burma the only benefit of having to pay exorbitant interest and loan money for decades if it is ever paid back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Qht7Hjm3s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOE7Ve06tXA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbwZhCfO2GQ&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tqaLMOgPH0&feature=related
It may very well be that it is a very , very clever game these people are playing. Highly doubtful to say the least.
But regardless, unless Thein Sein will pay back all the money he takes from anywhere by himself, (the same goes for any one who wants that Pamela Cox’s money), the people who will end up paying back need to know what is being done (stolen) in their name, on what terms and what is involved.
Yes. That is never going to happen. And Aung San Suu Kyi is never going to tell the public what is going on either. She never has, and never will. Highly doubtful she is able to understand herself.
In these dangerous time, where the military is selling out the country or mortgaging the country, taking money which is mainly to benefit the loaners and themselves, there should be at the very least lively and active debates from people who have the knowledge and people who are going to be affected.
The most unhealthy thing of the current situation in Burma is just that.
There is no information of what is going on. And there is no debate. people are simply told that is it.
The very fact that very occasional meagre discussions are made in someone else’s “house” (New Mandala), however welcoming the hosts are, itself is an indictment of the pathetic situation of intellectual bankruptcy of the people of Burma inside and outside the country.
In the shadow of strongmen
Both the governments badly needs to be changed and those who rule by fear, repression, and murders be jailed for life.
Protect Siam: What’s new?
So in this case at least it’s a clear victory for patronage over politics.
The 20C Asian proxy battle between capitalism and communism has been replaced by a 21C local struggle between democracy and Sakdina style patronage.
It’s still class struggle tho, plus ca change.
Making Rohingya statelessness
Myanmar is the most cruel country in the world. Be a human and help the rohigyas. Budhism is failing his idea.
Protect Siam: What’s new?
No strangling, Nick. I had also forgotten this detail. Thanks to our attentive reader, Pete S.
In the shadow of strongmen
The bombastic writer stated an old warning about strongman syndrome. Unfortunately, she offers nothing to resolve the problem