Dr Haberkorn’s line on the monarchy, that out of nation, religion, king, that the royalty “is (the) one that’s both the least questioned but also the most unquestionable because there are severe sanctions for doing so” was superbly succinct.
Jory statements on the vestiges of absolute monarchy remaining, where Thailand a ruler/subject instead of citizen/government, the reinforcement of the resacralised monarhcy via the exponential indoctrination of education and mass media is spot on. His Lese-majeste work is brilliant, so I was not surprised that he would hit the nail on the head with that one.
As we see, Lese-majeste is at the heart of this matter. 113, 114, 115 are obstacles to change and the advancement of Thailand.
On the absurdity of lese-majeste, I always think of Chotisak Onsoong, a 27 year old man. Chatisak went to the cinema to watch a film. Before a film in Thai cinemas there is always a 5 minute montage of the King and his various achievement as the royal anthem plays. Everyone must stand to show respect whilst this plays. Chatisak did not stand up. In an act that is chillingly Orwellian, a fellow cinema-goer Mr. Nawamin reported Chatisak to the cinema staff and the police. Chatisak could now face criminal prosecution under the lese-majeste laws, which can lead to (as the panel stated) a lengthy jail sentence.
Chatisak stated that by no means was he trying to insult the king and did nothing wrong. He cited freedom of expression and the right to choose if he stands up or sits down during the royal anthem/montage, freedoms and rights that are ‘assured’ by Articles 4 and 28 of the Constitution.
The sad, absurd punchline to this tale of lese majeste? The film was Transformers.
But I digress…
As regards to the relations between the military and the royalty discussed by the panel, (although not mentioned) McCargo’s concept of ‘Network Monarchy’ is too simplistic a take on something too opaque to comprehend. The military and the monarchy are enmeshed, yes. This relationship is a highly symbiotic one, but who really has the upper hand in the relationship? A difficult one indeed.
What a refreshing, intelligent and informed discussion. I was critical of the first, but this one was something else.
Thank you very much to everyone involved. You certainly kept the best until last.
Nothing would surprise me though, as we have seen before how politicians and bureaucrats can take to heart other such brilliant ‘advice’.
(War on drugs and Southern insurgency come to mind)
U Chemp. Is there any evidence for your suggestion that the idea of using boat propellers to speed the flow of water to the sea was the King’s? I thought Minister of Science and Technology and Pheua Thai stalwart Plodprasop claimed this intellectual feat for himself. It is certainly a worth follow up to his stroke of genius in slaughtering giraffes and and other exotic animals in the Chiang Mai Zoo to attract tourists to the Night Safari to eat their meat.
I think Prf Charnvit get the history of Thailand national flag bits wrong. Originally the 3 colours on the flag were never intended to be Nation, Religion and Monarchy . Originally, before the 3 colours flag and after the white elephant flag, there is one more flag pattern which was used during 1916-1917. It was a red flag with 2 white strips. The middle portion was later change to blue with some speculation that blue was representing Saturday, the day Rama VI was born. Another speculation was that it was change so the colour of the flag is allign with those of the allie nations in WWI. The 3 motto was introduced in the 60s-70s in an effort to counter the surge of communisism. I’m really surprised that someone with professor caliber got something so basic wrong.
It’s my personal opinion that the les-majeste law constitutes mental torture of the inhabitants of Thailand in that it forbids freedom or expression of thoughts deemed contrary to “national security” where national security=the status quo.
There can be no doubt that the last 10 years has seen a growth of political and social consciousness in the Thai people and a desire for open discussion and debate. “les-majestable” discussions take place every minute of the day up and down the country, in the market place, the home, the army base, the karaoke shop, government house, birthdays, weddings, funerals and anywhere unidentified affiliations cannot overhear and all must deny it or plead guilty when accused through fear of what will happen to themselves or their dependents.
This law is an obscenity which can only bring opprobrium upon those it is claimed to protect.
Where is the grace and majesty in such a law?
What nation could take pride in such a law?
I have no doubt this is unpleasant news for conservative sectors of society who take cold comfort in skeet-shooting the messenger whenever one is brave enough to pop his or her head up.
We should all wish for a more graceful, more magnanimous, more altruistic, more far seeing acceptance of the inevitable but unfortunately t’was ever thus in the history of the world.
The “Red-Shirt Nemesis” is the creation of the very people who wish it’s destruction, as Khun Thida pointed out in an interview with Voranai Vajanika recently.
So those who are swept along in the current of history like myself can only wonder at the hubris of man and the tragedy of lost opportunities. I have never understood the difficulty that some factions of Thai society have with the buddhist teaching of impermanence. They could learn a lesson from those people sitting patiently smiling and waving from the corrugated roofs of their ramshackle flooded homes this week.
“All these moments shall pass, like tears in the rain” – as my perceptive friend, Roy Batty would say 🙂
…bail for 4 Red Shirts who were sentenced to 33 years in prison…
Can you really bail out people who’ve been tried and sentenced? I think it is the Manager that has tried and sentenced these folks. Although actually… charge and arrest are very nearly equivalent to trial and conviction in Thailand, under the rigorously and routinely applied sentence first – verdict afterwards policy – seen to have been so devastatingly effective even in breaking the will to resist of innocent American citizens, albeit with the United States Government pitching in on the side of the Royal Thai Government oppressors and against the basic human and civil rights of the AmCit so oppressed. At least the USG didn’t assassinate Joe Gordon… I guess.
“Reds want Pheu Thai to see their electoral support as ‘conditional’, not automatic”
This is politics 101. The rejoinder to every ward healer’s plea for support is always, and correctly, “So what have you for me… lately?”
The Phuea Thai may have helped some Thais to bail… but what’s needed is dropping the bogus charges! The Phuea Thai seem silently accepting of all the same repressive premises as the junta, perhaps putting a ‘kinder, gentler’ face on them. That’s not ‘change you can believe in’.
Of course the Phuea Thai never sold change anyone could believe in and that’s why it’s up to the redshirts to build their own party to radically change Thailand. Surely no one else is interested in doing so.
So to speak, I wish not to only just talk and talk but I wish to see some outcome from this discussion, a practical one. I wish to see a powerful result that can urge those authorities who are in charge of governing the three southernmost provinces of Thailand (especially the government, local bureaucrats, and the military) to do something!!
As someone who lives and works in Pattani, I see that discussing mainly only about religion cannot change the world. PSU academics are not “armchair” academics. We work with local villagers, politicians, alleged BRN-C, religious leaders, military, police officers, you named it. I was once threatened by one of the insurgency that I can be beheaded because I ignore to wear “hijab”. I can talk about how polarise it is in the region for hours but I decided not to since it would lead to no where and it would be more of a conflictual debate. My purpose of this discussion is to send the message to the government on what they should focus on which are; 1. Governing structural reform, 2. Dialogue with the Insurgency, 3. Problem of continuing the usage of Martial Law and Emergency Decree. It is the most concerning problem but it is the least subject that any Thai government want to touch upon. If any government is brave enough to tackle these 3 main issues, it could possibly solve the problem of religion, ethnicity, and grievances. Then, to say the word “optimistic” would look promising.
The last dynasty of Burmese kings were in the habit of taking thousands of artisans from the lands they invaded, Thailand of course, and settling them in their capitals, encouraging them to marry into the host society, thus enriching the Burmese gene pool. They themselves on the other hand married their own half brothers or half sisters leading to insanity. A very good lesson from our history.
…LAM: I read in one blog, that recommended you as a politician of the future, and as the sort of politician that Malaysia needs, because, the argument of the blog goes, you are Malay and ultimately, Malaysia still needs Malay leaders because the Malays are the majority. So that’s still race-based though, isn’t it?
NIK NAZMI: That is the reality in Malaysia, because I think you want to talk about political change. It used to be about Malay supremacy, I think the opposition has rejected that. We talk about “people’s supremacy” but I think at this point of time, change still needs to be Malay-led because people still vote along racial lines, that’s a reality. I think all countries have this – I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it’s a political reality. But what is better is that enlightened Malay leadership is better than this ignorant Malay leadership….
Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad spoke to Sen Lam of Radio Australia on race-relations in Malaysia. He was also interviewed by Kate Arnott on Newsline.
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Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Khun Dundun’s comment in particular makes this one sound good. I’ll try and make my tired old ears give it a go in the next day or two.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Thanks Ulf Mielke,
The podcast for episode 3 is now available here.
Best wishes,
Nich
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Thanks Tarrin.
I thought the trinity is comprised of sufficient democracy, sufficient hypocrisy and sufficient economy.
But the three episodes tell me otherwise; score of the current government, southern violence and succession make up the Thai trinity.
BTW, in Thailand, the color representing Saturday is purple. Isn’t it Tarrin?
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Tarrin, I heard that blue actually represents Friday, and purple is for Saturday.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Thank you for the interesting discussions and features, I have found New Mandala by chance and am an avid follower now.
One question: It seems that the podcast for episode three is not available yet. I’d like to know when it is going to be uploaded?
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Excellent panel, excellent discussions, excellent podcast.
Bravo.
Dr Haberkorn’s line on the monarchy, that out of nation, religion, king, that the royalty “is (the) one that’s both the least questioned but also the most unquestionable because there are severe sanctions for doing so” was superbly succinct.
Jory statements on the vestiges of absolute monarchy remaining, where Thailand a ruler/subject instead of citizen/government, the reinforcement of the resacralised monarhcy via the exponential indoctrination of education and mass media is spot on. His Lese-majeste work is brilliant, so I was not surprised that he would hit the nail on the head with that one.
As we see, Lese-majeste is at the heart of this matter. 113, 114, 115 are obstacles to change and the advancement of Thailand.
On the absurdity of lese-majeste, I always think of Chotisak Onsoong, a 27 year old man. Chatisak went to the cinema to watch a film. Before a film in Thai cinemas there is always a 5 minute montage of the King and his various achievement as the royal anthem plays. Everyone must stand to show respect whilst this plays. Chatisak did not stand up. In an act that is chillingly Orwellian, a fellow cinema-goer Mr. Nawamin reported Chatisak to the cinema staff and the police. Chatisak could now face criminal prosecution under the lese-majeste laws, which can lead to (as the panel stated) a lengthy jail sentence.
Chatisak stated that by no means was he trying to insult the king and did nothing wrong. He cited freedom of expression and the right to choose if he stands up or sits down during the royal anthem/montage, freedoms and rights that are ‘assured’ by Articles 4 and 28 of the Constitution.
The sad, absurd punchline to this tale of lese majeste? The film was Transformers.
But I digress…
As regards to the relations between the military and the royalty discussed by the panel, (although not mentioned) McCargo’s concept of ‘Network Monarchy’ is too simplistic a take on something too opaque to comprehend. The military and the monarchy are enmeshed, yes. This relationship is a highly symbiotic one, but who really has the upper hand in the relationship? A difficult one indeed.
What a refreshing, intelligent and informed discussion. I was critical of the first, but this one was something else.
Thank you very much to everyone involved. You certainly kept the best until last.
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
Fortunately, if there was any misunderstanding, it should be cleared up by now: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Race-Against-Time-30167556.html
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Anyone shed any light on this report: The Bennington Vale Evening Transcript, 12 October 2011 (http://www.benningtonvalepress.com/2011/10/us-citizen-pleads-guilty-to-insulting.html). Is it a mish-mash of stories on Joe Gordon and Anthony Chai, a hoax or something else?
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
Ralph Kramden: The Bangkok Post also seem to have a similar impression: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/257717/30-more-tugboats-speed-the-chao-phraya-flow
Nothing would surprise me though, as we have seen before how politicians and bureaucrats can take to heart other such brilliant ‘advice’.
(War on drugs and Southern insurgency come to mind)
It’s been pointed out before that some think Ian Kershaw’s theory has merit in trying to understand Thailand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Kershaw#The_.22Working_Towards_the_F.C3.BChrer.22_concept
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
The first article doesn’t say anything about propellers of boats. Just mentions “advice.”
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
I should add that both those links are nice examples of what Dr Patrick Jory succinctly describes as ‘incessant & absurd’ propaganda.
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
Marteau: Here are a couple of sources:
http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/270211.html
That one seems quite official, but there are others, such as: http://en.isnhotnews.com/?p=14493
(btw, even if they got the story wrong I don’t think they deserve to face a LM prosecution 🙂
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
U Chemp. Is there any evidence for your suggestion that the idea of using boat propellers to speed the flow of water to the sea was the King’s? I thought Minister of Science and Technology and Pheua Thai stalwart Plodprasop claimed this intellectual feat for himself. It is certainly a worth follow up to his stroke of genius in slaughtering giraffes and and other exotic animals in the Chiang Mai Zoo to attract tourists to the Night Safari to eat their meat.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
I think Prf Charnvit get the history of Thailand national flag bits wrong. Originally the 3 colours on the flag were never intended to be Nation, Religion and Monarchy . Originally, before the 3 colours flag and after the white elephant flag, there is one more flag pattern which was used during 1916-1917. It was a red flag with 2 white strips. The middle portion was later change to blue with some speculation that blue was representing Saturday, the day Rama VI was born. Another speculation was that it was change so the colour of the flag is allign with those of the allie nations in WWI. The 3 motto was introduced in the 60s-70s in an effort to counter the surge of communisism. I’m really surprised that someone with professor caliber got something so basic wrong.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Ralf Kramden 167
It’s my personal opinion that the les-majeste law constitutes mental torture of the inhabitants of Thailand in that it forbids freedom or expression of thoughts deemed contrary to “national security” where national security=the status quo.
There can be no doubt that the last 10 years has seen a growth of political and social consciousness in the Thai people and a desire for open discussion and debate. “les-majestable” discussions take place every minute of the day up and down the country, in the market place, the home, the army base, the karaoke shop, government house, birthdays, weddings, funerals and anywhere unidentified affiliations cannot overhear and all must deny it or plead guilty when accused through fear of what will happen to themselves or their dependents.
This law is an obscenity which can only bring opprobrium upon those it is claimed to protect.
Where is the grace and majesty in such a law?
What nation could take pride in such a law?
I have no doubt this is unpleasant news for conservative sectors of society who take cold comfort in skeet-shooting the messenger whenever one is brave enough to pop his or her head up.
We should all wish for a more graceful, more magnanimous, more altruistic, more far seeing acceptance of the inevitable but unfortunately t’was ever thus in the history of the world.
The “Red-Shirt Nemesis” is the creation of the very people who wish it’s destruction, as Khun Thida pointed out in an interview with Voranai Vajanika recently.
So those who are swept along in the current of history like myself can only wonder at the hubris of man and the tragedy of lost opportunities. I have never understood the difficulty that some factions of Thai society have with the buddhist teaching of impermanence. They could learn a lesson from those people sitting patiently smiling and waving from the corrugated roofs of their ramshackle flooded homes this week.
“All these moments shall pass, like tears in the rain” – as my perceptive friend, Roy Batty would say 🙂
Bailing out the red shirts
Can you really bail out people who’ve been tried and sentenced? I think it is the Manager that has tried and sentenced these folks. Although actually… charge and arrest are very nearly equivalent to trial and conviction in Thailand, under the rigorously and routinely applied sentence first – verdict afterwards policy – seen to have been so devastatingly effective even in breaking the will to resist of innocent American citizens, albeit with the United States Government pitching in on the side of the Royal Thai Government oppressors and against the basic human and civil rights of the AmCit so oppressed. At least the USG didn’t assassinate Joe Gordon… I guess.
This is politics 101. The rejoinder to every ward healer’s plea for support is always, and correctly, “So what have you for me… lately?”
The Phuea Thai may have helped some Thais to bail… but what’s needed is dropping the bogus charges! The Phuea Thai seem silently accepting of all the same repressive premises as the junta, perhaps putting a ‘kinder, gentler’ face on them. That’s not ‘change you can believe in’.
Of course the Phuea Thai never sold change anyone could believe in and that’s why it’s up to the redshirts to build their own party to radically change Thailand. Surely no one else is interested in doing so.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 2
So to speak, I wish not to only just talk and talk but I wish to see some outcome from this discussion, a practical one. I wish to see a powerful result that can urge those authorities who are in charge of governing the three southernmost provinces of Thailand (especially the government, local bureaucrats, and the military) to do something!!
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 2
As someone who lives and works in Pattani, I see that discussing mainly only about religion cannot change the world. PSU academics are not “armchair” academics. We work with local villagers, politicians, alleged BRN-C, religious leaders, military, police officers, you named it. I was once threatened by one of the insurgency that I can be beheaded because I ignore to wear “hijab”. I can talk about how polarise it is in the region for hours but I decided not to since it would lead to no where and it would be more of a conflictual debate. My purpose of this discussion is to send the message to the government on what they should focus on which are; 1. Governing structural reform, 2. Dialogue with the Insurgency, 3. Problem of continuing the usage of Martial Law and Emergency Decree. It is the most concerning problem but it is the least subject that any Thai government want to touch upon. If any government is brave enough to tackle these 3 main issues, it could possibly solve the problem of religion, ethnicity, and grievances. Then, to say the word “optimistic” would look promising.
Nationalism and genetics: Thai obsession with race
Billy Budd,
Yup. Mutts rule, OK?
The last dynasty of Burmese kings were in the habit of taking thousands of artisans from the lands they invaded, Thailand of course, and settling them in their capitals, encouraging them to marry into the host society, thus enriching the Burmese gene pool. They themselves on the other hand married their own half brothers or half sisters leading to insanity. A very good lesson from our history.
Moving forward from racial tensions in Malaysia
Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad spoke to Sen Lam of Radio Australia on race-relations in Malaysia. He was also interviewed by Kate Arnott on Newsline.