This is the devious and cunning propaganda we can expect from a government without a mandate from the populus. From a Foreign Minister of fascistic tendencies (as displayed with his support of PAD seizure of airports and treatment of Hmong and Karen refugees).
From a military supported government which uses it’s elite forces to kill and maim for the suppression of dissent.
It is no wonder Thai students remain quiet, they must be so fearful to offer any questions they may feel wanting to ask.
You are right to feel uncomfortable Andrew, for there are such volatile anxieties fueled with bitterness in the “silent majority” of Thais at home.
I am so supprised why UNs, NGOs and medias are neglecting the Rakhine people who are robbed their own land by so-called rohingas and military junta. So supprising! this poor Rakhine are so pity on their own land.
@michael #54
thais are buddhists. they worship no god, no christ, no prophet.
but they have their most reverred king instead.
THEY believe this law to be very neccessary.
buddha had no ‘enemy’ which he wanted to ‘destroy’…..
New Mandala readers looking for more details on Chatthip and his evolving understanding of Thai society will find much food for thought in a recent (and critical) contribution by Thongchai Winichakul. It is available here.
Just as Marx and his ideologies are not needed to do economic history, Marx is also not needed to religious and intellectual history.
For Thai intellectual history works like scholar Supaphan Na Bang Chang’s “The Development of Pali literature related to the Suttanta Pitaka composed in Thailand” (1990) have been neglected, with Marxist analysis of Thai Pali literature as found in Nidhi Eoseewong’s “Pen and Sail” , for instance, becoming more prominent in Thai studies. Pali scholars Peter Skilling and Justin McDaniel have started to give neglected Thai Pali scholars the due they deserve.
IMHO Teachers should let students make up their own minds, not force Marx to make up their minds for them.
I find interesting the matters raised by Susie, particularly the role of ethnic chinese in Thailand (8.5mln or 14% of population) and their influence – a subject which is apperently a sort of taboo in Thailand (similr to the unspoken taboo on any critisism of Israel in USA – which some explain by the fact that jews control practicaly all the mass media in US, and have a powerful lobby in Congress).
this matter somehow is not so much discussed, and if someone even tries – then it instantly causes some similar reactions as can be seen in comments #2, #5 – sort of old good righteous outrage “we are all Thais in this country!” (although in some places it is mentioned the attitude of ethnic chinese towards other groups like Isaanes)
I have been trying to find out more on this matter, and quoted some articles here (this blog has also second post on this matter)
some studies define ethnic chinese in Thailand (also in Vietnam, Indonesia) as “ethno-class” rather than simply ethnic minority, like here, definition given:
Ethnoclass
These are ethnically or culturally distinct peoples, usually descended from slaves or immigrants, most of whom occupy a distinct social and economic stratum or niche.
“distinct” says it enough for me to support what pff123 has just mentioned in #8.
term ethno-class is also mentioned here, which is related to subject of Ethnocracy, (read also related articles there – down in “See also” section), which is also nicely defined and described here
… Economic growth and democracy tend to correlate, but correlation is not synonymous with simple causal effect. The belief that capitalists will necessarily demand democracy is a myth, not a law of social science.
There is nothing new about the assumption that the middle class has played a key role in the emergence of democracy in Asia. The middle class theory originally grew out of a fascination with Asia’s new rich and their political potential. The new rich were credited with bringing about the democratic popular uprisings that changed South Korea, the Philippines, Thailand and Indonesia in the 1980s and 1990s.
However, this period was also noted for the debate about so-called “Asian values” and the superiority of the Asian development model as opposed to the Western emphasis on the individual, democracy and human rights. Representatives of an Asian middle class could be found on either side of the divide. Asia’s many middle classes were not one entity at the time and did not act as one…
Solheim’s use of the term middle class is confusing. Asia’s middle classes span across a diverse group with different backgrounds, preferences and interests. To expect this class to gather around one common political platform and one common set of political goals is to play tricks with oneself.
Asia’s economic middle class–identifiable by its income and its lifestyle–comprises farmers, entrepreneurs, white-collar workers, military personnel, bureaucrats and others. In several countries in the region, such as China, Singapore and Malaysia, such a middle class has emerged without bringing about democratic regime change so far…
There is also an intellectual middle class in Asia, identifiable by its qualifications rather than its economic status. Professionals such as academics, teachers, students, artists, writers, and journalists have long traditions of challenging those in power in Asia … As long as freedom of expression and academic and artistic freedoms are gagged, this middle class also remains unable to mobilize for rebellion.
The experience from several of Burma’s neighboring countries is that the middle classes have rarely taken the lead when mass movements have developed… Solheim’s expectation that such a middle class is in some way predestined to take a lead in the struggle for democracy is not grounded in reality…
I think in Thailand there is enough evidence of this in past 2-3 years – that middle class not only do not bring the democratic changes, but even act as a reactionary to oppose any attempts to makes change.
“Why can I not be both Tai and Chinese, particularly if my family social memory suggests that I am? And who are ‘most people in Thailand (like, how many millions are you talking about?)’ and what do you mean when you say that they know the difference between a
Chinese and a Tai ‘when they meet one’ (is it immediately obvious or is there some sort of special check they have to perform on me at the meeting)?
1) Point relevant to Thailand is that a myth was constructed stating that the nation is/was uniformly ethnically Thai. And as Susie points out, that nationalist myth was constructed largely by pro-Fascist ideologues around the time of WW2. Furthermore, both before and after that Myth, the role of Chinese in Thailand has played no small role in the shaping of what being “Thai” means- first as a distinct “other” that defines the “we” and then as a more-excepted part of the polity (gross over simplification, but my point is, Susie’s questions were both valid, and more-or-less aligned with serious examinations of “Thainess” in Thailand).
2) The Chinese features on your face and, more importantly, the Chinese paraphernalia would be a good sign in many cases. Your position in the BKK or provincial Thai-Chinese communities being another. The treatment of Samak both as governor of BKK and as PM are indications of the widespread bias, at least amongst some segments of the pop’n. You are correct in noting I am too broad in saying “all Thais” can recognize Chinese-Thai.
That being said, I agree with what you are saying about the malleability of cultural and even ethnic identification, but in a paternalistic, fit-in-with-the-masses-and-don’t-question-the-norm State whose colors identify both a preferred religion and nationality, then yes- ethnic essentialism or primordialism is exactly what you might expect to influence both historians and public figures. Again, what the OP was asking is, do the authors dig any deeper than prevailing wisdom in Thai society regarding “Thainess” and homogeneity?
Re: Somsak Jeamteerasakul’s sweeping assertion: “…without Chatthip’s ideologically- and politically-oriented scholarly work…this whole intellectual current of studying the Economic History in general and Village Communities Economy in particular…wouldn’t have come into being.”
Are we just supposed to politely accept your assertion? Isn’t there rather a need for some proof here? Or is this yet another assertion by Thai Studies р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣М р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И that must be uncritically accepted? Perhaps р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣М р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И practicing the same intellectual hegemony that they find so objectionable in other realms, such as the political?
If my memory serves me correctly there has been a longstanding debate about the economic autonomy and insularity of villages in Southeast Asia. Samuel Popkin’s The Rational Peasant: The Political Economy of Rural Society in Vietnam comes to mind. In fact historically insularity requires proof. In the Tai frontier areas of Yunnan and Burma Sun Lai Chen’s dissertation at Univ Michigan clearly shows that the area was deeply connected to the capital during the Ming dynasty era. One thing is for sure, there is little evidence of how non-elite villagers were affected. One can only speculate.
The issue of recent intellectual history in Thai Studies itself is of interest though. You don’t hear this aspect of Thai intellectual history discussed very often. During a northern group meeting several years ago in Chiang Mai I listened to a mind opening criticism of the Cornell legacy of research during the 1960s and 70s in Thailand by Anthropologist Niels Mulder:
One might make a first stab by counting the number of actual critical reviews of works considered important like Chatthip Nartsupha’s or Thongchai Winichakul’s or Tambiah’s. I suspect they have not generated a lot of honest critical debate. I recall Tambiah’s rant/tyrade when Melford Spiro questioned some of his assertions in a JAS review.
Also please note that I was actually making a narrow point about what I found useful in teaching.
Why does blogskeptik bother to read blogs if really a sceptic? And then why make pretentious comments claiming pretension on the part of others? Wouldn’t it be better for a sceptic to desist and do something less academically pretentious?
If the picture was of the local canine filth in my area in central Bangkok, that howls all night, barks all day and shits whenever they like, I wouldn’t bother to piss on them even if they were being boiled.
Self-confessed dog (and cat) lovers are welcome to keep animals on their own premises. They can keep giraffes and hippos for all I care, but a serious offence is committed when their decision to embrace things with fur affects others, as so often happens.
The disgusting noise from neighbours’ animal trash (known in some circles as “pets”) that disturbs my sleep, prevents my use of the telephone and interrupts my work at home should be regarded as a form of assault, and punished accordingly. Fry them, boil them or bake them. I don’t care — just get their wretched day-and-night noise out of my bedroom, living room and home-office.
There is no place in the suburbs for things with brains the size of a plum that creep round on four legs, eating their own shit and rooting each other. The human morons that feed the strays are little better, as they look over their shoulder to make sure that a god is watching their “good deeds”.
If you want animals, go live on a farm, or visit a zoo. Do not expect my enthusiasm for your indulgence in “pets” to match yours, just because you think the never-ending barking of Sookums or the night-time wailing of Cutie-kittie might appeal to me as much as it does to you.
At least eating this urban refuse, as in the picture, makes them slightly useful, and countries that encourage the practice are taking a realistic approach to the scourge of so-called domestic animals in areas designed for humans only. If cats and dogs cannot be slaughtered in a way that makes them presentable to restaurants, just bash them with a cricket bat and leave the meat on the road, for other “pets” to come along and enjoy. It won’t take long for the blood and guts to be lapped up.
Spare taxpayers the price of the bullet that they really deserve.
The government under Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva therefore initiated the idea to use a rice price guarantee scheme instead of the existing rice mortgage scheme…
… the rice price guarantee scheme is similar to typical insurances; an insurance buyer will be compensated if problems arise. But if there are no problems, the insurance buyer’s premium will be considered as hedging costs. Such costs can in a way prevent the farmers from dishonestly reporting their rice stocks to the government.
there is nothing mentioned about middlemen and about rice exporters – who are actually the MAIN players who infuence the prices.
I guess Abhisit & Korn have a credit for this brilliant scam. “insurance like” – to me it rather implies that it will be as hard to prove the “problem”. so, gov. or its agents will always be easily able to prove that “there is no problem”.
in the end, the same middlemen and exporters will continue getting fatter, and farmers – become increasingly extinct species.
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Promoting Abhisit’s reform agenda
This is the devious and cunning propaganda we can expect from a government without a mandate from the populus. From a Foreign Minister of fascistic tendencies (as displayed with his support of PAD seizure of airports and treatment of Hmong and Karen refugees).
From a military supported government which uses it’s elite forces to kill and maim for the suppression of dissent.
It is no wonder Thai students remain quiet, they must be so fearful to offer any questions they may feel wanting to ask.
You are right to feel uncomfortable Andrew, for there are such volatile anxieties fueled with bitterness in the “silent majority” of Thais at home.
Small belly
A Gutless Wonder, perhaps?
The crisis in Northern Rakhine State
I am so supprised why UNs, NGOs and medias are neglecting the Rakhine people who are robbed their own land by so-called rohingas and military junta. So supprising! this poor Rakhine are so pity on their own land.
Sex trafficking in Singapore
Hi,
Pertaining to the definition of Human Trafficking, can someone please enlighten us if the following videos amount to human trafficking ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utr7xuvkeVA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Sxg4Os0sQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0mo8FFuIL8
Thanks.
Jessy Koh
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
@michael #54
thais are buddhists. they worship no god, no christ, no prophet.
but they have their most reverred king instead.
THEY believe this law to be very neccessary.
buddha had no ‘enemy’ which he wanted to ‘destroy’…..
Review of Chatthip
New Mandala readers looking for more details on Chatthip and his evolving understanding of Thai society will find much food for thought in a recent (and critical) contribution by Thongchai Winichakul. It is available here.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Review of Chatthip
Just as Marx and his ideologies are not needed to do economic history, Marx is also not needed to religious and intellectual history.
For Thai intellectual history works like scholar Supaphan Na Bang Chang’s “The Development of Pali literature related to the Suttanta Pitaka composed in Thailand” (1990) have been neglected, with Marxist analysis of Thai Pali literature as found in Nidhi Eoseewong’s “Pen and Sail” , for instance, becoming more prominent in Thai studies. Pali scholars Peter Skilling and Justin McDaniel have started to give neglected Thai Pali scholars the due they deserve.
IMHO Teachers should let students make up their own minds, not force Marx to make up their minds for them.
Review of Chatthip
I find interesting the matters raised by Susie, particularly the role of ethnic chinese in Thailand (8.5mln or 14% of population) and their influence – a subject which is apperently a sort of taboo in Thailand (similr to the unspoken taboo on any critisism of Israel in USA – which some explain by the fact that jews control practicaly all the mass media in US, and have a powerful lobby in Congress).
this matter somehow is not so much discussed, and if someone even tries – then it instantly causes some similar reactions as can be seen in comments #2, #5 – sort of old good righteous outrage “we are all Thais in this country!” (although in some places it is mentioned the attitude of ethnic chinese towards other groups like Isaanes)
I have been trying to find out more on this matter, and quoted some articles here (this blog has also second post on this matter)
some studies define ethnic chinese in Thailand (also in Vietnam, Indonesia) as “ethno-class” rather than simply ethnic minority, like here, definition given:
“distinct” says it enough for me to support what pff123 has just mentioned in #8.
term ethno-class is also mentioned here, which is related to subject of Ethnocracy, (read also related articles there – down in “See also” section), which is also nicely defined and described here
Thai political and social analysis unleashed
an interesting article about middle class, related to Thailand too :
I think in Thailand there is enough evidence of this in past 2-3 years – that middle class not only do not bring the democratic changes, but even act as a reactionary to oppose any attempts to makes change.
New Mandala turns 3
Birthday greetings
Review of Chatthip
Todger:
“Why can I not be both Tai and Chinese, particularly if my family social memory suggests that I am? And who are ‘most people in Thailand (like, how many millions are you talking about?)’ and what do you mean when you say that they know the difference between a
Chinese and a Tai ‘when they meet one’ (is it immediately obvious or is there some sort of special check they have to perform on me at the meeting)?
1) Point relevant to Thailand is that a myth was constructed stating that the nation is/was uniformly ethnically Thai. And as Susie points out, that nationalist myth was constructed largely by pro-Fascist ideologues around the time of WW2. Furthermore, both before and after that Myth, the role of Chinese in Thailand has played no small role in the shaping of what being “Thai” means- first as a distinct “other” that defines the “we” and then as a more-excepted part of the polity (gross over simplification, but my point is, Susie’s questions were both valid, and more-or-less aligned with serious examinations of “Thainess” in Thailand).
2) The Chinese features on your face and, more importantly, the Chinese paraphernalia would be a good sign in many cases. Your position in the BKK or provincial Thai-Chinese communities being another. The treatment of Samak both as governor of BKK and as PM are indications of the widespread bias, at least amongst some segments of the pop’n. You are correct in noting I am too broad in saying “all Thais” can recognize Chinese-Thai.
That being said, I agree with what you are saying about the malleability of cultural and even ethnic identification, but in a paternalistic, fit-in-with-the-masses-and-don’t-question-the-norm State whose colors identify both a preferred religion and nationality, then yes- ethnic essentialism or primordialism is exactly what you might expect to influence both historians and public figures. Again, what the OP was asking is, do the authors dig any deeper than prevailing wisdom in Thai society regarding “Thainess” and homogeneity?
Review of Chatthip
Re: Somsak Jeamteerasakul’s sweeping assertion: “…without Chatthip’s ideologically- and politically-oriented scholarly work…this whole intellectual current of studying the Economic History in general and Village Communities Economy in particular…wouldn’t have come into being.”
Are we just supposed to politely accept your assertion? Isn’t there rather a need for some proof here? Or is this yet another assertion by Thai Studies р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣М р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И that must be uncritically accepted? Perhaps р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣М р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И practicing the same intellectual hegemony that they find so objectionable in other realms, such as the political?
If my memory serves me correctly there has been a longstanding debate about the economic autonomy and insularity of villages in Southeast Asia. Samuel Popkin’s The Rational Peasant: The Political Economy of Rural Society in Vietnam comes to mind. In fact historically insularity requires proof. In the Tai frontier areas of Yunnan and Burma Sun Lai Chen’s dissertation at Univ Michigan clearly shows that the area was deeply connected to the capital during the Ming dynasty era. One thing is for sure, there is little evidence of how non-elite villagers were affected. One can only speculate.
The issue of recent intellectual history in Thai Studies itself is of interest though. You don’t hear this aspect of Thai intellectual history discussed very often. During a northern group meeting several years ago in Chiang Mai I listened to a mind opening criticism of the Cornell legacy of research during the 1960s and 70s in Thailand by Anthropologist Niels Mulder:
http://www.intgcm.thehostserver.com/diary2004_aug.htm#01
One might make a first stab by counting the number of actual critical reviews of works considered important like Chatthip Nartsupha’s or Thongchai Winichakul’s or Tambiah’s. I suspect they have not generated a lot of honest critical debate. I recall Tambiah’s rant/tyrade when Melford Spiro questioned some of his assertions in a JAS review.
Also please note that I was actually making a narrow point about what I found useful in teaching.
New Mandala turns 3
Congratulations. Keep it up.
New Mandala turns 3
By the way, happy birthday and best wishes. Hope there are many more such celebrations.
New Mandala turns 3
Why does blogskeptik bother to read blogs if really a sceptic? And then why make pretentious comments claiming pretension on the part of others? Wouldn’t it be better for a sceptic to desist and do something less academically pretentious?
Lunch?
If the picture was of the local canine filth in my area in central Bangkok, that howls all night, barks all day and shits whenever they like, I wouldn’t bother to piss on them even if they were being boiled.
Self-confessed dog (and cat) lovers are welcome to keep animals on their own premises. They can keep giraffes and hippos for all I care, but a serious offence is committed when their decision to embrace things with fur affects others, as so often happens.
The disgusting noise from neighbours’ animal trash (known in some circles as “pets”) that disturbs my sleep, prevents my use of the telephone and interrupts my work at home should be regarded as a form of assault, and punished accordingly. Fry them, boil them or bake them. I don’t care — just get their wretched day-and-night noise out of my bedroom, living room and home-office.
There is no place in the suburbs for things with brains the size of a plum that creep round on four legs, eating their own shit and rooting each other. The human morons that feed the strays are little better, as they look over their shoulder to make sure that a god is watching their “good deeds”.
If you want animals, go live on a farm, or visit a zoo. Do not expect my enthusiasm for your indulgence in “pets” to match yours, just because you think the never-ending barking of Sookums or the night-time wailing of Cutie-kittie might appeal to me as much as it does to you.
At least eating this urban refuse, as in the picture, makes them slightly useful, and countries that encourage the practice are taking a realistic approach to the scourge of so-called domestic animals in areas designed for humans only. If cats and dogs cannot be slaughtered in a way that makes them presentable to restaurants, just bash them with a cricket bat and leave the meat on the road, for other “pets” to come along and enjoy. It won’t take long for the blood and guts to be lapped up.
Spare taxpayers the price of the bullet that they really deserve.
Thai political and social analysis unleashed
@Observer #20
Jotman on his blog has posted some similar story.
Thai political and social analysis unleashed
new scheme or scam ?
there is nothing mentioned about middlemen and about rice exporters – who are actually the MAIN players who infuence the prices.
I guess Abhisit & Korn have a credit for this brilliant scam. “insurance like” – to me it rather implies that it will be as hard to prove the “problem”. so, gov. or its agents will always be easily able to prove that “there is no problem”.
in the end, the same middlemen and exporters will continue getting fatter, and farmers – become increasingly extinct species.
New Mandala turns 3
I have never seen the point in having a pretentious academic discussion about subject matter that is so completely lacking in intellectual finesse.
New Mandala turns 3
Congrats. Your site is essential.
Here is a contribution from your inverse:
David Carradine Murdered By Secret Shaolin Masturbation Sect
http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=799