I personally think the reference to Mitterand’s France is interesting, but if you are looking for a more suitable solution for Thailand, Spain would offer a better solution. In Spain some regions have more autonomy than others. The French structure does not address the problem of regional unrest in Southern Thailand. Spain is a better solution because they have a situation similar to what is happening in Thailand’s south with regards to Basque Independence.
“But this is far from being at the center of concern at the moment.” Yes you are correct that it does not seen to address the immediate concerns in Thailand. However, all of these suggestion below only address the symptoms, and not the fundamental crux of the problem — how to accommodate both rural and urban concerns.
* Should Samak and his new cabinet tough it out and wait until and election is due?
* Should there be a new election? Now? In the near future?
* Should Samak resign and a new PPP/coalition representative take his place?
* Should the Democrats be given a chance to form a government?
* Should a “government of national unity” be formed?
* Should there be another coup?
* What?
“However, as long as it is not infused into the Thai discourse about these matters, it will remain irrelevant.”
This is the type of thinking I had and many of my Indonesian friends and associates had before 1998. At the time we assumed that the military would always have a direct influence in Indonesia’s politics, Indonesia would remain centralized. press would be controlled etc. Abandonment of these concepts were not a part of the discourse at the time in Indonesia. But in 1998 everything changed.
Thank you very much. I was very glad when i saw your very tempered criticism of my report on your website. Nobody is perfect, and in such a situation not one single person can claim the whole truth. And i won’t claim that either. That needs a long investigation by qualified authorities.
As to the loudspeaker wagon – it is definitely in the range of the possible that it was overheard. There was not much time space between the warning and the attack.
One of the reasons that i have straight away crossed the barricades from PAD to the police at the impending attack was personal safety. I already guessed that the attack will be heavy, and with teargas, and insufficient escape routes.
Teargas can’t be aimed as closely as guns. I don’t think that police purposely wanted to hinder PAD from escaping.
The reasons for teargas was not to let a hand to hand battle occur. I have been at the Si Sao Thewet clash, and there were hours of fighting hand to hand, without police being able to win any ground, and it only stopped when police has used a heavy teargas barrage, and UDD leaders announced retreat.
PAD on the 7th was much better armed than UDD at that day one year ago, and hand to hand fighting would have been very bad for both sides. And i am sure that there would have been more casualties, especially police officers.
After the first attack in the morning most police officers i have spoken to were shocked about the impact of the teargas grenades. There was not one police officer who was in any way glad about the horrific injuries.
Later in the day, especially after the shootings and the incident with the pick up truck, there was of course a lot of anger to see in the police force against PAD, and there still is. Of course they cheered when a grenade dispersed protesters, the same way PAD has cheered when a slingshot projectile hit its target. That is only natural.
No police officer i have spoken with has enjoyed the fact that such injuries and one dead occurred.
Yet i am not sure that some hardcore PAD guards feel the same way – the day after the UDD – PAD clash one PAD guard has shown me with pride a bent metal bar that still had blood one it, and a piece of skin from a scalp with hair. That was truly sickening.
One of the UDD guards that was beaten to a pulp during that clash is still in coma in the hospital. I don’t see much attention given to this. What is particularly difficult for me is that i have photographed that man just half an hour before the clash while he was joking around.
I also wonder if that injured girl on the photo here on the blog might have been the PAD protester that was killed that day.
Many officers had, and still have, difficulties, to believe that teargas grenades they use could have such an impact. Maiming people is not what they aimed for. They simply wanted to do as ordered – to open the gate to parliament.
I believe a huge problem is the inexperience both of ordinary PAD protesters, and of police in handling such demonstrations (the guards are a different topic though…).
I have grown up in Germany, and we had violent demonstrations every other week. Protesters knew how things will develop, and so did police. And both sides most of the time know when to stop.
Here though i see children and old people at the protest site, and also when incidents are very likely. I have, for example, seen a PAD protester carrying his infant child while the police tried to disperse the protest at the 29th of August, walking around the scene of fighting as if it was a walk in the park.This is insane.
Whatever the politics – such protest sites are nothing for children, PAD protesters should be discouraged from bringing children. It is completely irresponsible to allow children at places of a very high likelihood of violence.
I am only glad that no child on that day was maimed for life. I do fear though, watching the pattern of escalation, that this was not the last incident of violence we have seen, and that the next one might be worse. Because i see the space for compromise disappearing rapidly.
Now should be a time for reflection, and not for agitation.
Thanks for the update. I am now in Norway doing research so does not have access to Thai papers. I don’t think a coup can solve the problem at all. It will only repeat the cycle once more. Here Anupong is to be commended for his steadfastness and integrity. Thais have to learn how to sort out problems through political and democratic means.
The behavior of the PAD is getting crazier by the day. One wonders how an action of one man, Thaksin, could justify such irrational series of action — seizing Govt House, storming the NBT, laying seige to the Parliament, and so forth.
Being a Thai I am embarrassed at all this. But I take this as a learning experience, a kind of ‘growing pain’ so to speak. Thai people need to stop being pawns in the games of some small cliques.
So my analysis is: No analysis. Wait an see how things turn out. Those of you who are abroad can enjoy the privilege of watching the drama unfolding without getting your feet wet.
I would like to apologize you, Nick. I have seen one PAD using a firegun on a video clip. I am investigating it now.
About the loud speaker, people who are at the parliament in the early morning confirmed that they didn’t hear anything from the Police. Majority of people in parliament area on October 7 morning are women. They were sleeping and waked up by a sound of a bomb. There were at least one young PAD (student) trying to negotiate with the police, but the police didn’t stop and just kept on firing continuously. Really, they didn’t expect the police to use tear gas from the start just expect push and pull, or the worst police was expected to use a stick.
In some occasions, the police fired or(threw) one set in front of PADs, and another set to behind PADs like they didn’t want people to escape. This is also what really happened
One person at my discussion forum confirmed that they noticed one mobile equiped with a loud speaker but it was so far away from the crackdown area and the speaker is so small. (It is the one that used for Maha Songkarn Festival)
I will get back to you more on an update.
Nobody, will hurt you and your family, Nick. You shouldn’t worry about that. Please just report on the fact.
While I agree with the sentiment expressed by Chang Noi, I have a feeling that Sondhi Lim has presented a better picture of what this is about. What follows are some thoughts.
Importantly, these events are most decidedly not still about Thaksin. Thaksin is a symbol of what PAD’s fight is about but not the reason for the continuing struggle. Sondhi calls it a civil war or wants a civil war and this is much closer to the core of what PAD are about.
This is a clash of interests that has been fought at various levels for some time. PAD want to end a system of government that threatens the interests of the people and class fractions that they claim to represent. Some readers may remember one of the earlier claims of Sondhi regarding the nature of the interests involved: that the middle class was being taxed to fund the TRT programs for the poor. When those poor elect the populist capitalists (and they don’t pay taxes – see Thaksin and Shin sale), then the middle class revolt.
Obviously PAD has big business support as well from royalists and others, but this is because a change of political and economic system in the direction PAD proposes/wants suits them.
There is also the racial-class element involved in identifying us and them – for PAD, “us” is essentially Thai-Chinese (PAD: luk chin rak chat) and “them” is the “black Thai” of the north and the northeast who have always been considered “lazy” (after all, as the Bangkok middle class refrain goes, if they weren’t lazy, they wouldn’t be poor).
The dispute is essentially the big one: who will control wealth and power. This is why it is now a fight to the death. Everything is at stake now.
I think the Chang Noi headline makes this all too fuzzy.
Queen to meet PAD leaders (the PAD called off the protest at the Police headquarters to attend Angkana’s cremation)?
HM the Queen to preside over cremation of Angkana
By The Nation, October 13, 2008
HM the Queen will preside over cremation of Angkana Radubpanya-avut who was killed when police dispersed anti-government protesters near the Parliament on October 7, Royal Household Bureau said Monday.
HM the Queen will go to Sri Prawat Temple in Nonthaburi with HRH Princess Chulabhorn Valayalaksana to attend the cremation which is scheduled at 4pm.
Angkana, 28, was killed when police dispersed anti-government protesters on U-Thong Nai road near the Parliament last week. Protesters blocked all entrances of the Parliament in an attempt to block Somchai government from delivering policies.
Cause of death of Angkana was still unclear as police claimed they used tear gas to disperse the protesters, but wounds on her body appeared to be severe than because of tear gas.
Of course, one can always think the unthinkable. However, as long as it is not infused into the Thai discourse about these matters, it will remain irrelevant.
Rather than federalism, the election of provincial governors, and thus probably a reorganization of the central state’s regional administration (this might include the abolition of the present provincial level local government, the Provincial Administrative Organizations) has been discussed. But this is far from being at the center of concern at the moment. I would also rather look at the decentralization processes in Mitterand’s France in the early 80ths for a process from which Thailand might draw inspiration.
Nick, I am not sure that the police force is being dismantled or that its commanders taking some the blame for their botched riot conrol operation is going to squash any attempt at police reform.
The Thai police is commonly perceived by most Thais to be rotten with corruption from top to bottom and involved in every type of criminal activity from shaking down motorists to drug running to murder. Accountability seems solely to the pyramid structure whereby every one pays to the next level up for promotion and then a monthly rent to keep the job. Sure, there are some good apples too but the pyramid is so deeply entrenched that they get bypassed for promotion and cannot change much.
There have been several attempts in recent years to reform the police and make them more accountable to the public they are supposed to serve, including the Surayud government’s effort that ended in nothing, despite the fact that the plan was supported by the military and the odds initially seemed loaded against the police being able to maintain the status quo. I would say that, on the contrary, the only chance of reforming the police would be as a result of public disatisfaction with the service they receive from their tax money spent on law enforcement swelling to a point that it can no longer be ignored by the government of the day.
“Perhaps the saddest sight in all this is the Democrat Party. …. They are being dragged along at the back, shedding principles and scruples behind them like a litter of plastic bottles.”
Very true. Even worse is that leading Democrats might not merely be electoral opportinists, as Chang Noi suggests, but truly believe that the PAD has basically been doing the right thing, and thus need to be supported by the Democrats.
CS grenades are not supposed to explode! They burn and give off the gas. I had enough experience with them in the military to know that. Unless, of course, these were Thai made and somebody “improved” them a bit. :p
Nice reporting. I’ll have to give you a call some time.
Great job sir.
Everytime when i read Thai news from Internet; newspaper or even in Television i have to divided the truth by 50%.
What i mean is i do not beleive what ever they said on the new anymore it is rediculous that they all blame the police and the government.
This goverment are eleted by the people from Thailand.
It is a sad new to all of us that a small group of people are doing this to their country they must have a very good back up otherwise they can not do this.
If you let this small group of people doing this or let them run the country you can might as well says good bye to Thailand.
A large group of silence people are waiting and watching this closely
just hope that this silence people do not come out and do something bad to this smalll group of people it will turn to be a great disaster.
Just hope this would not happen.
I really want to know whose is behind all this…..sometime I do wander?
Keep up the good work Nick I am behind you 150% buddy.
Nick, thanks for bringing us this report, and thanks for sticking to the facts of what you saw and heard down there.
I understand you’ve got your own feelings about the matter but you’ve done a great job at keeping them out of the article, so as we can see, that leave very little opening for people seeking to dismiss or put in doubt the raw facts that you expose. We can see the commenter above has to resort to discrediting other stories instead of yours.
So thanks for keeping us updated on what is happening only a couple kilometers from my doorstep – it’s amazing how normal the rest of Bangkok can be, under the circumstances. And please be safe, I have a feeling that that march on the police HQ could be very nasty, even postponed.
My understanding, federalism requires elected local governments that are have the ability to make their own laws. However, real federalism also has to allow the governments the resources and funds to exercise their autonomy. Right now in Indonesia they are under going a period of decentralization, but it is really a messy move to toward federalism under a guise of decentralization in a unitary state. Provincial governments can legislate and often make laws that violate the Constitution in which the Central government always trying to correct.
What I am trying to say by talking about Federalism in Thailand by bringing the example of Indonesia is to raise the unthinkable. I think other readers like Colum Graham are trying to do the same.
One should not dismiss it even if it does not fit with mainstream parameters about what is possible in Thai politics. To my understanding the PAD have their supporters and the government has theirs, which in macro level is one of rural vs urban (provinces vs Bangkok). Federalism is a solution because it diffuse the problem by allowing Bangkok and the provinces to live separate lives while still being married. Its like a husband and wife sharing different rooms but still still living in the same house. Secondly I think it could offer a solution to resolving the Muslim problem in the South.
It seems that my article is now in the midst of the propaganda war. I can only repeat that there was a loud speaker car of the police issuing warnings. There were no negotiations, obviously. PAD had erected barricades, and did not intend to move out. Right after the warnings the police moved in.
Of course some blame has to be laid on the police. Police in Thailand are simply not as experienced in riot control as police in countries such as in Germany, where rioting happens every other week. But it should be noted that in countries like Germany rioters do not carry firearms. And of course in western countries the police are far better equipped.
I am still convinced that the police did the best job they could have done. No PAD supporter has been shot by firearms, to my knowledge: very different from ’92, ’76, and ’73.
I wish that the incident of 7/10 would not be exaggerated to the point of comparing it with the aforementioned incidents. This will help nobody, and will only cause more anger, and more bloodshed.
PAD had carried weapons such as sticks and slingshots, there is no doubt about this; also at least one PAD protester was filmed with a handgun. Three policemen were wounded by gun shots. Claims that PAD members did not carry guns are as ridiculous as claims of the extreme fringe of other side that the people who lost limbs were already amputees.
Khunying Pornthip’s investigations seem to have confirmed that the teargas grenades were indeed responsible for the horrific injuries.
And large part of the responsibility should be also carried by the BMA which refused requests by police for firefighting cars to use as water cannons on the grounds of the dirty water might pose a health risk to protesters. No more comment needed…
The police are now getting all blame. I have received reports that in Central Thailand many incidents happened after 7/10 with police officers attacked, even beaten up. I wonder if the instigators who purposely radicalize the situation for their own short term goals realize what long term damage is done if Thailand’s police force is dismantled the way it is done now. Every attempt of improving the force is being squashed.
I do thank the people who feel that my report is trying to be as neutral and objective as i was able to. And I hope that the people who are angered by my report will not be a risk for my or my family’s security.
This is a very difficult situation to work in as a journalist. Objectivity is a very difficult thing, especially now. There are so many aspects to consider, and interpretations of current events need to be influenced by historical, social and many other very confusing aspects. Much of what goes on nobody really knows fully, and for everyone this is a huge learning curve.
Working now is getting increasingly dangerous – the obvious dangers are the escalating incidents of violence, but I am more scared of getting on the wrong end of the stick in this propaganda warfare – one can’t make it right to everyone, and one side is bound to be pissed of with what one publishes.
I agree with the multiple posters that complain that the Nation is very
biassed toward the PADs message…
is this because your reporters are too scared or fat-arssed lazy to
actually get out in the streets and write their own stories…
the PAD are supported by the media-savvy manager group who know the value of instant press releases… I assume the Thai media finds it so comfortable to receive these releases, quickly do some minoe edits and publish as their own reports… is there a media council or somesuch in Thailand that investigates un-attributed stories?
but my main concern is that the government seems very weak in supporting its police:
the prime minister seems overly cautious and apologetic
the prime minister should immediately state that the government decided to clear the protesters quoting the relevant constitution and legal authority
he should respond to claims by saying he believed the police behaved entirely reasonably in the circumstances when confronted with heavily armed and equipped protesters, they erected barricades with (illegal?) razor wire and were armed and supported by loud speakers and support logistics
he should state that the events on both sides will be investigated and charges laid against any officers or protesters that committed offences
I think if the PM and the government give the police real public support then they will be empowered to clear the crowds, arresting the ring leaders as they go
and, the media might be more willing to be involved and at least report both sides if the government issues press releases along to support the governments public statements in direct competition with the PAD and opposition
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A way forward for Thai politics?
I personally think the reference to Mitterand’s France is interesting, but if you are looking for a more suitable solution for Thailand, Spain would offer a better solution. In Spain some regions have more autonomy than others. The French structure does not address the problem of regional unrest in Southern Thailand. Spain is a better solution because they have a situation similar to what is happening in Thailand’s south with regards to Basque Independence.
“But this is far from being at the center of concern at the moment.” Yes you are correct that it does not seen to address the immediate concerns in Thailand. However, all of these suggestion below only address the symptoms, and not the fundamental crux of the problem — how to accommodate both rural and urban concerns.
* Should Samak and his new cabinet tough it out and wait until and election is due?
* Should there be a new election? Now? In the near future?
* Should Samak resign and a new PPP/coalition representative take his place?
* Should the Democrats be given a chance to form a government?
* Should a “government of national unity” be formed?
* Should there be another coup?
* What?
“However, as long as it is not infused into the Thai discourse about these matters, it will remain irrelevant.”
This is the type of thinking I had and many of my Indonesian friends and associates had before 1998. At the time we assumed that the military would always have a direct influence in Indonesia’s politics, Indonesia would remain centralized. press would be controlled etc. Abandonment of these concepts were not a part of the discourse at the time in Indonesia. But in 1998 everything changed.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
“Vorapoap”:
Thank you very much. I was very glad when i saw your very tempered criticism of my report on your website. Nobody is perfect, and in such a situation not one single person can claim the whole truth. And i won’t claim that either. That needs a long investigation by qualified authorities.
As to the loudspeaker wagon – it is definitely in the range of the possible that it was overheard. There was not much time space between the warning and the attack.
One of the reasons that i have straight away crossed the barricades from PAD to the police at the impending attack was personal safety. I already guessed that the attack will be heavy, and with teargas, and insufficient escape routes.
Teargas can’t be aimed as closely as guns. I don’t think that police purposely wanted to hinder PAD from escaping.
The reasons for teargas was not to let a hand to hand battle occur. I have been at the Si Sao Thewet clash, and there were hours of fighting hand to hand, without police being able to win any ground, and it only stopped when police has used a heavy teargas barrage, and UDD leaders announced retreat.
PAD on the 7th was much better armed than UDD at that day one year ago, and hand to hand fighting would have been very bad for both sides. And i am sure that there would have been more casualties, especially police officers.
After the first attack in the morning most police officers i have spoken to were shocked about the impact of the teargas grenades. There was not one police officer who was in any way glad about the horrific injuries.
Later in the day, especially after the shootings and the incident with the pick up truck, there was of course a lot of anger to see in the police force against PAD, and there still is. Of course they cheered when a grenade dispersed protesters, the same way PAD has cheered when a slingshot projectile hit its target. That is only natural.
No police officer i have spoken with has enjoyed the fact that such injuries and one dead occurred.
Yet i am not sure that some hardcore PAD guards feel the same way – the day after the UDD – PAD clash one PAD guard has shown me with pride a bent metal bar that still had blood one it, and a piece of skin from a scalp with hair. That was truly sickening.
One of the UDD guards that was beaten to a pulp during that clash is still in coma in the hospital. I don’t see much attention given to this. What is particularly difficult for me is that i have photographed that man just half an hour before the clash while he was joking around.
I also wonder if that injured girl on the photo here on the blog might have been the PAD protester that was killed that day.
Many officers had, and still have, difficulties, to believe that teargas grenades they use could have such an impact. Maiming people is not what they aimed for. They simply wanted to do as ordered – to open the gate to parliament.
I believe a huge problem is the inexperience both of ordinary PAD protesters, and of police in handling such demonstrations (the guards are a different topic though…).
I have grown up in Germany, and we had violent demonstrations every other week. Protesters knew how things will develop, and so did police. And both sides most of the time know when to stop.
Here though i see children and old people at the protest site, and also when incidents are very likely. I have, for example, seen a PAD protester carrying his infant child while the police tried to disperse the protest at the 29th of August, walking around the scene of fighting as if it was a walk in the park.This is insane.
Whatever the politics – such protest sites are nothing for children, PAD protesters should be discouraged from bringing children. It is completely irresponsible to allow children at places of a very high likelihood of violence.
I am only glad that no child on that day was maimed for life. I do fear though, watching the pattern of escalation, that this was not the last incident of violence we have seen, and that the next one might be worse. Because i see the space for compromise disappearing rapidly.
Now should be a time for reflection, and not for agitation.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Seems like the silence has been erased: http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/10/13/politics/politics_30085941.php
Reminds me of 1976 and the run-up to the massacre on 6 Oct.
Thai Rath and Matichon on 7 October 2008
Thanks for the update. I am now in Norway doing research so does not have access to Thai papers. I don’t think a coup can solve the problem at all. It will only repeat the cycle once more. Here Anupong is to be commended for his steadfastness and integrity. Thais have to learn how to sort out problems through political and democratic means.
The behavior of the PAD is getting crazier by the day. One wonders how an action of one man, Thaksin, could justify such irrational series of action — seizing Govt House, storming the NBT, laying seige to the Parliament, and so forth.
Being a Thai I am embarrassed at all this. But I take this as a learning experience, a kind of ‘growing pain’ so to speak. Thai people need to stop being pawns in the games of some small cliques.
So my analysis is: No analysis. Wait an see how things turn out. Those of you who are abroad can enjoy the privilege of watching the drama unfolding without getting your feet wet.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
I would like to apologize you, Nick. I have seen one PAD using a firegun on a video clip. I am investigating it now.
About the loud speaker, people who are at the parliament in the early morning confirmed that they didn’t hear anything from the Police. Majority of people in parliament area on October 7 morning are women. They were sleeping and waked up by a sound of a bomb. There were at least one young PAD (student) trying to negotiate with the police, but the police didn’t stop and just kept on firing continuously. Really, they didn’t expect the police to use tear gas from the start just expect push and pull, or the worst police was expected to use a stick.
In some occasions, the police fired or(threw) one set in front of PADs, and another set to behind PADs like they didn’t want people to escape. This is also what really happened
One person at my discussion forum confirmed that they noticed one mobile equiped with a loud speaker but it was so far away from the crackdown area and the speaker is so small. (It is the one that used for Maha Songkarn Festival)
I will get back to you more on an update.
Nobody, will hurt you and your family, Nick. You shouldn’t worry about that. Please just report on the fact.
Sorry for my poor English.
Chang Noi holds both sides responsible
While I agree with the sentiment expressed by Chang Noi, I have a feeling that Sondhi Lim has presented a better picture of what this is about. What follows are some thoughts.
Importantly, these events are most decidedly not still about Thaksin. Thaksin is a symbol of what PAD’s fight is about but not the reason for the continuing struggle. Sondhi calls it a civil war or wants a civil war and this is much closer to the core of what PAD are about.
This is a clash of interests that has been fought at various levels for some time. PAD want to end a system of government that threatens the interests of the people and class fractions that they claim to represent. Some readers may remember one of the earlier claims of Sondhi regarding the nature of the interests involved: that the middle class was being taxed to fund the TRT programs for the poor. When those poor elect the populist capitalists (and they don’t pay taxes – see Thaksin and Shin sale), then the middle class revolt.
Obviously PAD has big business support as well from royalists and others, but this is because a change of political and economic system in the direction PAD proposes/wants suits them.
There is also the racial-class element involved in identifying us and them – for PAD, “us” is essentially Thai-Chinese (PAD: luk chin rak chat) and “them” is the “black Thai” of the north and the northeast who have always been considered “lazy” (after all, as the Bangkok middle class refrain goes, if they weren’t lazy, they wouldn’t be poor).
The dispute is essentially the big one: who will control wealth and power. This is why it is now a fight to the death. Everything is at stake now.
I think the Chang Noi headline makes this all too fuzzy.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
[…] An excellent first-hand narrative of the events of October 7, 2008 in Bangkok, along with an outstanding range of photographs by press photographer Nick Nostitz can be found at the New Mandala website here: http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2008/10/11/what-happened-on-7102008/ […]
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Queen to meet PAD leaders (the PAD called off the protest at the Police headquarters to attend Angkana’s cremation)?
HM the Queen to preside over cremation of Angkana
By The Nation, October 13, 2008
HM the Queen will preside over cremation of Angkana Radubpanya-avut who was killed when police dispersed anti-government protesters near the Parliament on October 7, Royal Household Bureau said Monday.
HM the Queen will go to Sri Prawat Temple in Nonthaburi with HRH Princess Chulabhorn Valayalaksana to attend the cremation which is scheduled at 4pm.
Angkana, 28, was killed when police dispersed anti-government protesters on U-Thong Nai road near the Parliament last week. Protesters blocked all entrances of the Parliament in an attempt to block Somchai government from delivering policies.
Cause of death of Angkana was still unclear as police claimed they used tear gas to disperse the protesters, but wounds on her body appeared to be severe than because of tear gas.
“The police murder the people”
I just found this brochure as a supplement in today’s issue of Sondhi’s Phuchatkan newspaper.
A way forward for Thai politics?
Of course, one can always think the unthinkable. However, as long as it is not infused into the Thai discourse about these matters, it will remain irrelevant.
Rather than federalism, the election of provincial governors, and thus probably a reorganization of the central state’s regional administration (this might include the abolition of the present provincial level local government, the Provincial Administrative Organizations) has been discussed. But this is far from being at the center of concern at the moment. I would also rather look at the decentralization processes in Mitterand’s France in the early 80ths for a process from which Thailand might draw inspiration.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Nick, I am not sure that the police force is being dismantled or that its commanders taking some the blame for their botched riot conrol operation is going to squash any attempt at police reform.
The Thai police is commonly perceived by most Thais to be rotten with corruption from top to bottom and involved in every type of criminal activity from shaking down motorists to drug running to murder. Accountability seems solely to the pyramid structure whereby every one pays to the next level up for promotion and then a monthly rent to keep the job. Sure, there are some good apples too but the pyramid is so deeply entrenched that they get bypassed for promotion and cannot change much.
There have been several attempts in recent years to reform the police and make them more accountable to the public they are supposed to serve, including the Surayud government’s effort that ended in nothing, despite the fact that the plan was supported by the military and the odds initially seemed loaded against the police being able to maintain the status quo. I would say that, on the contrary, the only chance of reforming the police would be as a result of public disatisfaction with the service they receive from their tax money spent on law enforcement swelling to a point that it can no longer be ignored by the government of the day.
Chang Noi holds both sides responsible
“Perhaps the saddest sight in all this is the Democrat Party. …. They are being dragged along at the back, shedding principles and scruples behind them like a litter of plastic bottles.”
Very true. Even worse is that leading Democrats might not merely be electoral opportinists, as Chang Noi suggests, but truly believe that the PAD has basically been doing the right thing, and thus need to be supported by the Democrats.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Hi, Nick
CS grenades are not supposed to explode! They burn and give off the gas. I had enough experience with them in the military to know that. Unless, of course, these were Thai made and somebody “improved” them a bit. :p
Nice reporting. I’ll have to give you a call some time.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Great job sir.
Everytime when i read Thai news from Internet; newspaper or even in Television i have to divided the truth by 50%.
What i mean is i do not beleive what ever they said on the new anymore it is rediculous that they all blame the police and the government.
This goverment are eleted by the people from Thailand.
It is a sad new to all of us that a small group of people are doing this to their country they must have a very good back up otherwise they can not do this.
If you let this small group of people doing this or let them run the country you can might as well says good bye to Thailand.
A large group of silence people are waiting and watching this closely
just hope that this silence people do not come out and do something bad to this smalll group of people it will turn to be a great disaster.
Just hope this would not happen.
I really want to know whose is behind all this…..sometime I do wander?
Keep up the good work Nick I am behind you 150% buddy.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Nick, thanks for bringing us this report, and thanks for sticking to the facts of what you saw and heard down there.
I understand you’ve got your own feelings about the matter but you’ve done a great job at keeping them out of the article, so as we can see, that leave very little opening for people seeking to dismiss or put in doubt the raw facts that you expose. We can see the commenter above has to resort to discrediting other stories instead of yours.
So thanks for keeping us updated on what is happening only a couple kilometers from my doorstep – it’s amazing how normal the rest of Bangkok can be, under the circumstances. And please be safe, I have a feeling that that march on the police HQ could be very nasty, even postponed.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Nick–
Thanks for the report.
There are YouTube videos that verify your report, including one with the police making an announcement. Sorry, I don’t have the link, but it is there.
I posted a video on my blog where a PAD supporter shot a policeman at point blank range.
Other than that, please try to be safe and protect yourself and your family. Keep reporting the truth as much as you can.
A way forward for Thai politics?
My understanding, federalism requires elected local governments that are have the ability to make their own laws. However, real federalism also has to allow the governments the resources and funds to exercise their autonomy. Right now in Indonesia they are under going a period of decentralization, but it is really a messy move to toward federalism under a guise of decentralization in a unitary state. Provincial governments can legislate and often make laws that violate the Constitution in which the Central government always trying to correct.
What I am trying to say by talking about Federalism in Thailand by bringing the example of Indonesia is to raise the unthinkable. I think other readers like Colum Graham are trying to do the same.
One should not dismiss it even if it does not fit with mainstream parameters about what is possible in Thai politics. To my understanding the PAD have their supporters and the government has theirs, which in macro level is one of rural vs urban (provinces vs Bangkok). Federalism is a solution because it diffuse the problem by allowing Bangkok and the provinces to live separate lives while still being married. Its like a husband and wife sharing different rooms but still still living in the same house. Secondly I think it could offer a solution to resolving the Muslim problem in the South.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
It seems that my article is now in the midst of the propaganda war. I can only repeat that there was a loud speaker car of the police issuing warnings. There were no negotiations, obviously. PAD had erected barricades, and did not intend to move out. Right after the warnings the police moved in.
Of course some blame has to be laid on the police. Police in Thailand are simply not as experienced in riot control as police in countries such as in Germany, where rioting happens every other week. But it should be noted that in countries like Germany rioters do not carry firearms. And of course in western countries the police are far better equipped.
I am still convinced that the police did the best job they could have done. No PAD supporter has been shot by firearms, to my knowledge: very different from ’92, ’76, and ’73.
I wish that the incident of 7/10 would not be exaggerated to the point of comparing it with the aforementioned incidents. This will help nobody, and will only cause more anger, and more bloodshed.
PAD had carried weapons such as sticks and slingshots, there is no doubt about this; also at least one PAD protester was filmed with a handgun. Three policemen were wounded by gun shots. Claims that PAD members did not carry guns are as ridiculous as claims of the extreme fringe of other side that the people who lost limbs were already amputees.
Khunying Pornthip’s investigations seem to have confirmed that the teargas grenades were indeed responsible for the horrific injuries.
And large part of the responsibility should be also carried by the BMA which refused requests by police for firefighting cars to use as water cannons on the grounds of the dirty water might pose a health risk to protesters. No more comment needed…
The police are now getting all blame. I have received reports that in Central Thailand many incidents happened after 7/10 with police officers attacked, even beaten up. I wonder if the instigators who purposely radicalize the situation for their own short term goals realize what long term damage is done if Thailand’s police force is dismantled the way it is done now. Every attempt of improving the force is being squashed.
I do thank the people who feel that my report is trying to be as neutral and objective as i was able to. And I hope that the people who are angered by my report will not be a risk for my or my family’s security.
This is a very difficult situation to work in as a journalist. Objectivity is a very difficult thing, especially now. There are so many aspects to consider, and interpretations of current events need to be influenced by historical, social and many other very confusing aspects. Much of what goes on nobody really knows fully, and for everyone this is a huge learning curve.
Working now is getting increasingly dangerous – the obvious dangers are the escalating incidents of violence, but I am more scared of getting on the wrong end of the stick in this propaganda warfare – one can’t make it right to everyone, and one side is bound to be pissed of with what one publishes.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
I agree with the multiple posters that complain that the Nation is very
biassed toward the PADs message…
is this because your reporters are too scared or fat-arssed lazy to
actually get out in the streets and write their own stories…
the PAD are supported by the media-savvy manager group who know the value of instant press releases… I assume the Thai media finds it so comfortable to receive these releases, quickly do some minoe edits and publish as their own reports… is there a media council or somesuch in Thailand that investigates un-attributed stories?
but my main concern is that the government seems very weak in supporting its police:
the prime minister seems overly cautious and apologetic
the prime minister should immediately state that the government decided to clear the protesters quoting the relevant constitution and legal authority
he should respond to claims by saying he believed the police behaved entirely reasonably in the circumstances when confronted with heavily armed and equipped protesters, they erected barricades with (illegal?) razor wire and were armed and supported by loud speakers and support logistics
he should state that the events on both sides will be investigated and charges laid against any officers or protesters that committed offences
I think if the PM and the government give the police real public support then they will be empowered to clear the crowds, arresting the ring leaders as they go
and, the media might be more willing to be involved and at least report both sides if the government issues press releases along to support the governments public statements in direct competition with the PAD and opposition
Mapping the result
Can anyone point to a source that has the type of analysis that Jon talks about in the above post?