Nick Nostitz’ chronicling of the Red Shirt cause during this prevailing Thai decade of bitterly divisive and violent (with mobs armed with spears, guns and bombs) politics had inflicted to this courageous journalist of impeccable professionalism …. personal, psychological and financial trauma.
I salute Nick Nostitz with all sincerity, irrespective of our ongoing disagreements (vehemently on many occasions) of how best Thailand could make the transition to a functional liberal democracy.
Foreigners indeed have a vested valid interest in prodding Thailand to make that transition peacefully. The world is continually being drawn into, terrorized and traumatized by many many civil wars/violent strifes at neighboring or distant countries thus. (The recent Erawan Shrine Bangkok bombings provoked by the Uighur unrest at China underscores this point.) A Thailand on a path towards self-destruction (civil war) is a real danger; where a very volatile extremely adversarial political ambience cast dark clouds over an impending Thai Royal succession. Under this ongoing poisoned politics, the Thai monarchy’s relevance to a modern Thailand’s liberal democratic aspirations is yet to be resolved.
And yes, I also salute Nick Nostitz’ father who heroically turned his back at Nazism while forcibly enlisted at 15-years of age during the closing days of WW2.
“Thailand like Myanmar is an ancient culture…we have unique lifestyles and traditions that cannot be understood, especially to the westerners.”
Oh, for F’s sake, leave out the racist crap, please.
How ancient is Thailand’s culture really? While many ancient empires existed on Thai soil, the first proper Siamese kingdom was the Sukhothai Kingdom in the 12th century. Before that it was small T’ai Kingdoms founded by migrant peoples on the fringes of the Khmer and Mon empires we do not really know that much about. Truly ancient civilizations by then had already several thousands of years of written and recorded history – such as India, China, Greece, Rome, etc. My own family’s recorded history even dates back to the time of the Sukhothai period, to the mid 13th century. So, no, ancient it is not.
Western involvement and relationship with Thailand/Siam dates back to the beginning of the 16th century with the first Portuguese settlement in Ayutthaya. So, we, the westerners have had ample time to “understand” Thailand.
Thailand/Siam never was the hidden kingdom closed off from the world and developing it’s own unique way of life. The area that is now Thailand was even before the arrival of the T’ai part of ancient trading routes, with both peaceful and non peaceful periods of migration. It’s culture always was and still is, due to this location and history, a vast amalgam of many different traditions adapted and morphed into what is today Thai culture. Which is one of the things i personally find so fascinating here in Thailand.
So, again, please leave out the racist crap. With a bit of effort Thailand isn’t that difficult to make sense of for “the westerners”.
You mean objectively. An academic who takes sides is an open book and why shouldn’t they? Bertrand Russell is as good an example as Chomsky. It’s the seemingly unbiased and impartial ones you need to watch out for. Transparency is a good thing desirable not just in governance.
There is a tremendous amount of pulling wool over your eyes all the time as Chomsky himself has discussed in Manufacturing Consent.
I think Dr. Yurtbilir misunderstands the nature of religious violence. It doesn’t need any formal chain of command to prove its involvement. The key factors are a religious/cultural tradition of capital punishment, lack of formal control on who is entitled to enforce “justice”, a poor education system, and a cultural tendency to extreme moral outrage. Islam is the main culprit at present, with extremist Hinduism a distant second, and American Christian fundamentalism inciting the odd murder. We don’t have to go back far in history to find Christian persecution of Jews as the main religious violence in the world. That was a well-oiled band-wagon which Hitler boarded at a quite late stage. The chains of cause and effect are there, but they are cultural, not formal chains of command linking individuals.
Thaksin’s son Oak yesterday did reward the Thai Police the Baht 7.0 million he promised. Very generous, the Shinawatra clan, to handing out gifts and rewards to the Thai police. I remember Yingluck gave Baht 2.0 million to Police Lieutenant General Kamronwit Thoopkrachang (the police cop arrested at Tokyo for gun smuggling) for some reason or the other.
When it comes to brownnosing, the Thai police had been very well trained indeed.
But maybe Thaksin’s Oak is too quick on the police reward. It appears that the Erawan Shrine (where his father had on many occasions performed voodoo rites, did he not?) bombing plot thickens and could implicate Thaksin Shinawatra himself or somebody high up in Thaksin’s Peau Thai political party.
” … Police on Saturday claimed a lawyer connected to the Pheu Thai Party once sought bail for Odd Phayungwong, a Thai suspect wanted in connection with August’s Bangkok Erawan Shrine bombings. …”
…… Which leads me onto to this. Most local establishment figures, intellectuals, activists and their pundits are really only interested in creating a token constitution and democracy – little more than a nice (but essentially useless) bauble to keep for exhibition purposes. That is obviously the case with the Thaksins, Abhisets and Prayuths of this nation, but it seems such tokenistic thinking is ubiquitous amongst Thailand’s more privileged classes – thanks to the media demonisation that naturally follows anything that departs from the current global establishment line. Not that such limited thinking is only a local phenomenon, since it is very apparent in many apparently-failing countries who have been forced to follow the current economic dogma by the free-market monotheists under threat of bank runs etc. But of course, why shouldn’t the citizens of this country decide (or rather have it decided for them) that this is the course they wish to steer? It’s not as if there are really any sparkling examples in the World right now of countries who are prepared to buck the economic fashion.
“It also seems to erase the decades of struggle Thais have engaged in.”
This is quite possibly the most pernicious effect the constant repetition of the Thaksin/UDD narrative–that Thaksin has (inadvertently or not) awakened a previously politically dormant people- has on political discourse regarding Thailand.
Both sides in the ongoing elite conflict are guilty of distortions and erasures of the historical record that would earn the label “Orwellian” if said term had not already been taken over and trivialized by a section of the Bangkok bourgeoisie.
Many ordinary Thais are quite aware and have been for decades that neither the monarchy nor the various elite groups arrayed around it usually act with their best interests at heart.
And it hasn’t taken either Thaksin or UDD to awaken them to the hollow pontificating of courtiers like Anand.
I am a fan of Burma, culturally and her people….as for the government? I have no comment… many similarities with Thailand, naturally in a different scale. I am not anti-Western at all, however, you must realize that the US of A loves to play the world’s big boss. This would not be a problem if their policy is open and fair. When push comes to shove, they will always use their “national interests” lame excuse to use whichever means of intimidation to suit their “interest” take a look at Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria to name a few!!! look what happened in recent
history….There is no blaming anyone….just wanted to point out that so called “academics” like Pavin, thinks that he knows everything, I assure you that his presentations in Thailand were made mainly to the Red shirts or politicians under the Thaksin payroll. Again I would welcome an open debate with him any time and where in an open forum! Thailand like Myanmar is an ancient culture…we have unique lifestyles and traditions that cannot be understood, especially to the westerners. Now we have some pathetic academics, with a few diplomas barking that they are experts in social and political situations….this is totally untrue! Check this Pavin carefully and you’ll clearly know who bankrolls his expenses! An “academic” who takes side blatantly can never look at things or situation subjectively!!!
There I was thinking it’s the power mad plutocracy who takes advantage of the mostly non-political minded Thais and how the country goes TITs up every now and then.
And also that it’s rather the exception to the rule in the political pass (sic) of all Southeast Asian countries. You are making the Burmese jealous. Besides you sound like our fellow commenter plan B blaming it all on Western colonisation but unlike him also on Western education and modernisation (globalisation?).
Can’t wait, can you? But one at a time, Mahmood, sorry, Marayu.
Whipping up anti-Chinese resentment in Mandalay is hardly necessary and in experienced hands you’ll find when the time comes. You should realise by now these things serve a purpose and it’s all in the timing. Save your breath and leave it to the experts, you’re getting hoarse.
As this posting and much of the ensuing discussion relate to Dr Pavin’s travels and activities, I wonder if he might explain the recent cancellation of the seminar that he was scheduled to give in Singapore. People there have been curious. Also, might he share with us the travel document that he has used to visit places like the Unite States . . . and Estonia?
QUOTE PAVIN: But they wont print it. I proposed a piece to NYT, the editor found it too sensitive. QUOTE
The complete mismatch of neo-liberalism/populism and our declining democracies in a nutshell. And we all know that most local rags have become little more than lifestyle sales sheets in the last 15 years – under threat from all factions and their own proprietors.
Great ideas! The internet situation in Thailand is interesting enough to merit its own entire article, in my opinion. Thank you for the suggestions, in this column I also hope to capture discussions which haven’t been receiving as much coverage across news media as other major topics. Let’s see how we go for mid-next week.
Khun Tukkae, thanks for this. I have tried to be more critical about the monarchy in the international media. But they wont print it. I proposed a piece to NYT, the editor found it too sensitive. But those who attend my talk here in the US, or in Europe would know that I gave a critical comment on the monarchy when necessary. Thanks.
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A conversation with Chomsky
Nick Nostitz’ chronicling of the Red Shirt cause during this prevailing Thai decade of bitterly divisive and violent (with mobs armed with spears, guns and bombs) politics had inflicted to this courageous journalist of impeccable professionalism …. personal, psychological and financial trauma.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/print/458727/
I salute Nick Nostitz with all sincerity, irrespective of our ongoing disagreements (vehemently on many occasions) of how best Thailand could make the transition to a functional liberal democracy.
Foreigners indeed have a vested valid interest in prodding Thailand to make that transition peacefully. The world is continually being drawn into, terrorized and traumatized by many many civil wars/violent strifes at neighboring or distant countries thus. (The recent Erawan Shrine Bangkok bombings provoked by the Uighur unrest at China underscores this point.) A Thailand on a path towards self-destruction (civil war) is a real danger; where a very volatile extremely adversarial political ambience cast dark clouds over an impending Thai Royal succession. Under this ongoing poisoned politics, the Thai monarchy’s relevance to a modern Thailand’s liberal democratic aspirations is yet to be resolved.
And yes, I also salute Nick Nostitz’ father who heroically turned his back at Nazism while forcibly enlisted at 15-years of age during the closing days of WW2.
A conversation with Chomsky
“Thailand like Myanmar is an ancient culture…we have unique lifestyles and traditions that cannot be understood, especially to the westerners.”
Oh, for F’s sake, leave out the racist crap, please.
How ancient is Thailand’s culture really? While many ancient empires existed on Thai soil, the first proper Siamese kingdom was the Sukhothai Kingdom in the 12th century. Before that it was small T’ai Kingdoms founded by migrant peoples on the fringes of the Khmer and Mon empires we do not really know that much about. Truly ancient civilizations by then had already several thousands of years of written and recorded history – such as India, China, Greece, Rome, etc. My own family’s recorded history even dates back to the time of the Sukhothai period, to the mid 13th century. So, no, ancient it is not.
Western involvement and relationship with Thailand/Siam dates back to the beginning of the 16th century with the first Portuguese settlement in Ayutthaya. So, we, the westerners have had ample time to “understand” Thailand.
Thailand/Siam never was the hidden kingdom closed off from the world and developing it’s own unique way of life. The area that is now Thailand was even before the arrival of the T’ai part of ancient trading routes, with both peaceful and non peaceful periods of migration. It’s culture always was and still is, due to this location and history, a vast amalgam of many different traditions adapted and morphed into what is today Thai culture. Which is one of the things i personally find so fascinating here in Thailand.
So, again, please leave out the racist crap. With a bit of effort Thailand isn’t that difficult to make sense of for “the westerners”.
Review of The Wheel-Turner and His House
Excellent review. Wish there was more on pre-modern Southeast Asian history, but I guess it is a tiny field. 🙂
Southeast Asian snapshots
Thanks, excellent review, record it to MP3 and it will be even more convenient to use, must listening along with Economist audio edition 🙂
A conversation with Chomsky
You mean objectively. An academic who takes sides is an open book and why shouldn’t they? Bertrand Russell is as good an example as Chomsky. It’s the seemingly unbiased and impartial ones you need to watch out for. Transparency is a good thing desirable not just in governance.
There is a tremendous amount of pulling wool over your eyes all the time as Chomsky himself has discussed in Manufacturing Consent.
Were the Grey Wolves behind Bangkok bombing?
I think Dr. Yurtbilir misunderstands the nature of religious violence. It doesn’t need any formal chain of command to prove its involvement. The key factors are a religious/cultural tradition of capital punishment, lack of formal control on who is entitled to enforce “justice”, a poor education system, and a cultural tendency to extreme moral outrage. Islam is the main culprit at present, with extremist Hinduism a distant second, and American Christian fundamentalism inciting the odd murder. We don’t have to go back far in history to find Christian persecution of Jews as the main religious violence in the world. That was a well-oiled band-wagon which Hitler boarded at a quite late stage. The chains of cause and effect are there, but they are cultural, not formal chains of command linking individuals.
Were the Grey Wolves behind Bangkok bombing?
Thaksin’s son Oak yesterday did reward the Thai Police the Baht 7.0 million he promised. Very generous, the Shinawatra clan, to handing out gifts and rewards to the Thai police. I remember Yingluck gave Baht 2.0 million to Police Lieutenant General Kamronwit Thoopkrachang (the police cop arrested at Tokyo for gun smuggling) for some reason or the other.
When it comes to brownnosing, the Thai police had been very well trained indeed.
But maybe Thaksin’s Oak is too quick on the police reward. It appears that the Erawan Shrine (where his father had on many occasions performed voodoo rites, did he not?) bombing plot thickens and could implicate Thaksin Shinawatra himself or somebody high up in Thaksin’s Peau Thai political party.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/716956/police-link-pt-lawyer-to-suspect
” … Police on Saturday claimed a lawyer connected to the Pheu Thai Party once sought bail for Odd Phayungwong, a Thai suspect wanted in connection with August’s Bangkok Erawan Shrine bombings. …”
Voodoo Vombings in Vangkok is it?
Thailand’s constitution conundrum
…… Which leads me onto to this. Most local establishment figures, intellectuals, activists and their pundits are really only interested in creating a token constitution and democracy – little more than a nice (but essentially useless) bauble to keep for exhibition purposes. That is obviously the case with the Thaksins, Abhisets and Prayuths of this nation, but it seems such tokenistic thinking is ubiquitous amongst Thailand’s more privileged classes – thanks to the media demonisation that naturally follows anything that departs from the current global establishment line. Not that such limited thinking is only a local phenomenon, since it is very apparent in many apparently-failing countries who have been forced to follow the current economic dogma by the free-market monotheists under threat of bank runs etc. But of course, why shouldn’t the citizens of this country decide (or rather have it decided for them) that this is the course they wish to steer? It’s not as if there are really any sparkling examples in the World right now of countries who are prepared to buck the economic fashion.
Mass killings and memory
[…] If you forget the past, you’re doomed to repeat it. Why is this so hard to understand? We need a better history curriculum in our schools. […]
A conversation with Chomsky
“It also seems to erase the decades of struggle Thais have engaged in.”
This is quite possibly the most pernicious effect the constant repetition of the Thaksin/UDD narrative–that Thaksin has (inadvertently or not) awakened a previously politically dormant people- has on political discourse regarding Thailand.
Both sides in the ongoing elite conflict are guilty of distortions and erasures of the historical record that would earn the label “Orwellian” if said term had not already been taken over and trivialized by a section of the Bangkok bourgeoisie.
Many ordinary Thais are quite aware and have been for decades that neither the monarchy nor the various elite groups arrayed around it usually act with their best interests at heart.
And it hasn’t taken either Thaksin or UDD to awaken them to the hollow pontificating of courtiers like Anand.
A conversation with Chomsky
I am a fan of Burma, culturally and her people….as for the government? I have no comment… many similarities with Thailand, naturally in a different scale. I am not anti-Western at all, however, you must realize that the US of A loves to play the world’s big boss. This would not be a problem if their policy is open and fair. When push comes to shove, they will always use their “national interests” lame excuse to use whichever means of intimidation to suit their “interest” take a look at Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Syria to name a few!!! look what happened in recent
history….There is no blaming anyone….just wanted to point out that so called “academics” like Pavin, thinks that he knows everything, I assure you that his presentations in Thailand were made mainly to the Red shirts or politicians under the Thaksin payroll. Again I would welcome an open debate with him any time and where in an open forum! Thailand like Myanmar is an ancient culture…we have unique lifestyles and traditions that cannot be understood, especially to the westerners. Now we have some pathetic academics, with a few diplomas barking that they are experts in social and political situations….this is totally untrue! Check this Pavin carefully and you’ll clearly know who bankrolls his expenses! An “academic” who takes side blatantly can never look at things or situation subjectively!!!
Independence and interventions
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2011/december/1322699456/shane-maloney/gareth-evans-ali-alatas
A conversation with Chomsky
There I was thinking it’s the power mad plutocracy who takes advantage of the mostly non-political minded Thais and how the country goes TITs up every now and then.
And also that it’s rather the exception to the rule in the political pass (sic) of all Southeast Asian countries. You are making the Burmese jealous. Besides you sound like our fellow commenter plan B blaming it all on Western colonisation but unlike him also on Western education and modernisation (globalisation?).
Independence and interventions
Benign interventions and noble intentions. Where have we heard that before? It took an Aussie to blow an Aussie myth that endures.
Southeast Asian snapshots
Can’t wait, can you? But one at a time, Mahmood, sorry, Marayu.
Whipping up anti-Chinese resentment in Mandalay is hardly necessary and in experienced hands you’ll find when the time comes. You should realise by now these things serve a purpose and it’s all in the timing. Save your breath and leave it to the experts, you’re getting hoarse.
A conversation with Chomsky
As this posting and much of the ensuing discussion relate to Dr Pavin’s travels and activities, I wonder if he might explain the recent cancellation of the seminar that he was scheduled to give in Singapore. People there have been curious. Also, might he share with us the travel document that he has used to visit places like the Unite States . . . and Estonia?
Independence and interventions
You?
A conversation with Chomsky
QUOTE PAVIN: But they wont print it. I proposed a piece to NYT, the editor found it too sensitive. QUOTE
The complete mismatch of neo-liberalism/populism and our declining democracies in a nutshell. And we all know that most local rags have become little more than lifestyle sales sheets in the last 15 years – under threat from all factions and their own proprietors.
Southeast Asian snapshots
Hey Sam,
Great ideas! The internet situation in Thailand is interesting enough to merit its own entire article, in my opinion. Thank you for the suggestions, in this column I also hope to capture discussions which haven’t been receiving as much coverage across news media as other major topics. Let’s see how we go for mid-next week.
Warm regards,
Mish.
A conversation with Chomsky
Khun Tukkae, thanks for this. I have tried to be more critical about the monarchy in the international media. But they wont print it. I proposed a piece to NYT, the editor found it too sensitive. But those who attend my talk here in the US, or in Europe would know that I gave a critical comment on the monarchy when necessary. Thanks.