What a strange construct you are building around me. I don’t think i have denied the involvement of Thaksin in the PT party and the UDD. If i would i would hardly have made the effort to travel to Cambodia when Thaksin was there.
What i am saying is, and what does not suit your construct, is that the relationship between Thaksin, the PT, and especially the UDD and other Red Shirt groups is far more complex and fluid than you are willing to accept (and i have given more than a few examples that support my claim).
And again, the dream of the supposed clear split the Red Shirts should make from Thaksin by ivory tower analysts and other fundamentalists is nothing but the completely outdated song mai aow position, which, speaking of Giles, he has also given up in 2009 when he went on the UDD stage a few days before he left Thailand. And yes, i am aware that his latest writings seem that he again tends to lean towards that view.
Please accept that many people in this country do favor Thaksin. It is their right to do so. It does not matter what I think about Thaksin. I am not an activist. I am a reporter. If you feel so strong about this issue i would suggest then to start the party you dream of. If you are successful i will applaud you.
From what i can see is that the Red Shirt movement has a far more realistic answer to the Thaksin dilemma, or the quite obvious dialectics of the issue, and that is to give both Thaksin supporters and opponents a space in their movement.
This obsession with Thaksin of yours, and yes – it is an obsession, bores me to death. I am tired of being forced into the same annoying and useless conversation i began getting tired of already ten years ago.
Nick: I see my reference to Giles has sent your handwaving off in another direction! Now I am a leftist Yellow!
And you are still a Red Farang, indulging the typical RF fantasy that if you say often enough that Thaksin is irrelevant to the PT-UDD condominium people will just forget who Pheu Thai belongs to and who the leadership of UDD work for.
There is a difference between “obsessing” about Thaksin and refusing to deny his involvement in the political party supported by the UDD. “Disappearing” Thaksin from that reality is your obsession. It doesn’t actually change anything though.
You go on and on about the subtleties and varieties of Reds in the Redshirt movement and I have no doubt that at the individual level they exist. I also know that there are different groups in the Reds, some of whom may actually support a version of liberal-democracy.
But until the day arrives when they make a clear split, announce for all the world that they repudiate TS, Pheu Thai and the paid stooges leading the UDD, they remain attached to a movement and a set of leaders who have zero interest in a liberal democratic Thailand. And in such a condition they are not working for democracy in Thailand, they are working for the Shin family business, government division.
I don’t have an ideological home in Thailand, Nick, just family. It’s why I would like to see a move toward a society with rule of law and other liberal democratic features.
People like you with your constant defense of the “popular front” tactic, whereby a “democracy movement” gets mixed up with the drive to power of a wealthy Thai family with scores to settle, are anaethema to that wish.
You have found your ideological home apparently. Your constant refrain that TS and PT are the best Thailand can hope for just translates into “Thailand is not ready for liberal democracy” and/or support for “Thai-style democracy”.
We’ve had that for decades, Nick. And you want to pretend it is a goal to be worked toward in some sort of future. Your doublespeak is a perfect match for that of the Junta and the “pro-democracy” Yellows.
Dear all.I hate to see when ‘some’stupid politician ,who has a peanut sized brain is able to sway our fellowship among Malaysians.We are Malaysians,Malays,Chinese and Indians- period.The truth is, now,the PM has done something ,in his most ernest effort to catapult us ,Malaysia ,out to the world but unfortunately its by accidental discovery of his corrupt practices trying to rob us dry.Come on for the sake of GOD and FROG.Do the ‘dumb’politicians really believe that we are sooooooooooo stupid to beleive their same lame stale ‘political nursery rhymes’ which by the way, change day by in .One fellows says he is willing to take a bet RM 1000 that the news is ot true and then the news comes out that the money was indeed deposited in the alleged account but the sources were not as they seemed to be.I mean,this makes teh Watergate and Marcos scandal petty.
Just look at the destruction of the beautiful and delicate coral reefs. An ecological disaster. Who’s doing it? Where is Green Peace, when we need them?
You are not just confusing terminology here, you seem to have very little idea about the structure of the Red Shirt movement. If you would stop getting hysterical about Thaksin every time Red Shirts are mentioned, you may see that under the various free Red Shirt groups are many whose positions range from distrust to clear opposition to Thaksin, but who still define themselves as Red.
As an example – the inventor of the color Red as an identification color for this movement – Sombat Boonngamanong – has on many occasions criticized Thaksin on stages and during his TV show.
The students keep a distance to the UDD, and are not part of the UDD, or in any way connected to Thaksin or Pueah Thai Party. However, the clear majority of their supporters are people who since years have participated in Red Shirt protests as Red Shirt protesters for whom presently the only avenue of showing their opposition to the coup in public are joining the student led protests.
The students themselves are also not as occupied with Thaksin as you are. Their position towards Thaksin is ambiguous, their protests are concerning structural issues. Which is a very similar position many of the free Red Shirts have, but also many people within the UDD nowadays.
The only people and groups who are as obsessed with the Thaksin issue and the “moral people” vs. “bad people (Thaksin and PT)” discourse as you seem to be are the groups under the Yellow alliance.
Are you sure that your ideological home is not within the wider Yellow movement, in particular the more leftist NGO part of the Yellow movement? I say that because the rather frustrating conversations i am having with you here are quite similar to the ones i have had with them on countless occasions. In particular your tendency to constantly try to pull the conversation towards Thaksin, and to dismiss anything that is Red along those grounds, is rather reminiscent of why many of the leftists joined a strategic alliance with the Yellow movement.
Nick: You really need to begin to pay attention to what you say.
In another post you more or less identify the Bangkok students as “free Reds”, or at least suggest that they were a regular part of “non-UDD free Red protests” during the YL administration.
Now you are suggesting that various fine divisions of what you laughingly believe is a pro-democracy movement were not sure about either Dao Din or the Bkk students but are now both perceived by said groups as an independent pro-democracy group.
So which is it? Were the Bkk students part of “non-UDD free Red” (hope I’m not confusing the terminology here- wouldn’t want the People’s Front misidentified as the Peoples Front) activities or were they strangers whose affiliation was suspect?
Calling you on your hand-waving and strawman-building, your “inner discourse” habit of using “wink-wink nudge-nudge” as a form of argument, and your constant inability to deal with disagreement is not “nit-picking”, Nick.
The old saw about “splittists” on the left being the reason for its failure would appear to apply more aptly to your characterization of the sub-groups in the Thaksin-PT-UDD condominium than to my insistence that there is little to no evidence of a movement toward liberal democracy in that vast division of subdivisions.
I think the left has receded due to the kind of vacuous emotionalized moralizing that you indulge in when you fail again and again to confront the flaws and contradictions in your own “inner discourse”.
One way or the other, I really hope that someone in the NDM will come out and deny categorically Nick’s suggestion that they were regularly affiliated with the Reds. The last thing a democracy movement in Thailand needs is yet more taint from the crony-capitalist liberation movement.
If you are aware, then why ask? Are you playing agent provocateur, or have you completely forgotten what times we are living in?
And as to sharing any more – i believe i have shared enough so that even you can get the picture. Any more than that i will not, especially nothing that might bring people already in trouble into even more.
As to you not being convinced of anything – this sort of constant nitpicking and inability to look beyond their own narrow ideological frames is quite typical of so called “progressives” all over the world, and one of the main reasons the left sadly almost everywhere lost itself into a state of utter irrelevancy while it would though be desperately needed as a counterweight to neo-liberalists and the rising new right.
(end of rant)
The plotted downfall of Tuanku after May 13, and the implementation of NEP to garnish and to upgrade the elite skill, wealth & knowledge gradually leads to greed and corruption contributed to today’s arrogant racist and religious bully. The component parties are suppressively obedience, resulted no check and balance.
As time passed, the dominant party with government machinery implemented a lot of unfavorable policies to the rakyat just to sustain their position until today.
I am asking you to tell us what was being protested at the “non-UDD free Red protests” at which you saw these students. I doubt anyone here needs you to do another little general catalogue of things that Reds have done in order to cover up for the lack of a specific answer.
It’s a simple question and I am sure that if you just stop the interminable faux-sighing you rely on in place of argument you could tell us. That way we could check for articles and photos to see how these particular “non-UDD free Red protests” were treated in the press.
Surprisingly enough, a lot of these little events were Tweeted about and discussed on social media. I know that isn’t “internal discourse”, but it is a kind of awareness that goes beyond you and a few others.
And I go on about “homies” and your beloved “internal discourse” because like anyone interested enough, I am aware that there were various Red demos over the period of the Yingluck administration. None of them convinced me that there was much hope of an independent movement pushing for liberal-democracy likely to grow out of the Thaksin-PT-UDD condominium. Therefore I assume that you must have privileged information since you seem to think otherwise.
Emjay, it seems that you have entirely missed several years of development in Thai street politics. Otherwise you would not ask me such an astonishingly uninformed question.
In the period between the 2011 election and the start of the PDRC protests in late 2013 there were countless protests and seminars organized by the myriad of free Red Shirt groups ranging from topics of freeing political prisoners to protesting against the different proposals of amnesty up to demanding changes in the lese majeste laws – all within the context of trying to create a more liberal democracy in Thailand.
The sad part is that many people mistakenly believed that this brief period of liberalization under the elected government would equate also in safety in terms of freedom of speech. However, what has been said on stages and in seminars back then was during the PDRC protests and after the coup used to accuse the then government of “neglecting to enforce the law properly” ( http://bangkokpost.com/news/politics/649072/government-defends-lese-majeste-sentences ). Some of the first targets after the coup and quite a few of the exiles were the more outspoken figures from those groups.
These protests and seminars were public, so i have no idea why in this context you waffle on about “homies” and “internal discourse”.
There is no denying (and this IS a racist remark) that Chinese are the root of all extinction, tiger, bear, all sorts of lizards, snakes, rhino, and perhaps millions others in the name of that elusive erection and longevity or “vigor” whatever it is, the world over. And there is no conscience shown by either the leading power in mainland China itself or so many millions of “educated” diaspora as Chinese even in Taiwan consider themselves as diaspora which fits in well with guanxi system. In an indirect way this is akin to the Rohingya (a made-up word for a genuinely existing people) diaspora who keep drumming up the flame in the name of a Caliphate with no regard tot he danger posed to the people on the ground.
Having said that if you look hard, the threat from China pales in comparison to wholesale destruction by the “West” who wants to have control of everything including water and crops.
In some sense the “Generals'” blanket locking the oh-so-generous foreign “aids” does have some basis to it. For sure when the Nargis aids were finally opened up the people who benefited most are the Generals themselves, Nayubg-bin-lay-zay traders and new and old prostitutes in Boagaly, Lutputta and Chang Thar. After all that famous Burmese iteration of Gene Sharp’s Color Revolution was funded and oragnised over decades by CIA fronts like NED and Soros’ various joints. (Yes this does sound like Landdestroyer)
And masses of youth now indoctrinated in places like ANU would become cadres for that very processes like those young idealistic monks still buoyed up to do the biddings for “Progress” and “Equanimity” (Baloney’s in different names).
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Malaysia’s long history of financial scandals
Everyone wants a slice of durian, more than saving the nation.
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
What a strange construct you are building around me. I don’t think i have denied the involvement of Thaksin in the PT party and the UDD. If i would i would hardly have made the effort to travel to Cambodia when Thaksin was there.
What i am saying is, and what does not suit your construct, is that the relationship between Thaksin, the PT, and especially the UDD and other Red Shirt groups is far more complex and fluid than you are willing to accept (and i have given more than a few examples that support my claim).
And again, the dream of the supposed clear split the Red Shirts should make from Thaksin by ivory tower analysts and other fundamentalists is nothing but the completely outdated song mai aow position, which, speaking of Giles, he has also given up in 2009 when he went on the UDD stage a few days before he left Thailand. And yes, i am aware that his latest writings seem that he again tends to lean towards that view.
Please accept that many people in this country do favor Thaksin. It is their right to do so. It does not matter what I think about Thaksin. I am not an activist. I am a reporter. If you feel so strong about this issue i would suggest then to start the party you dream of. If you are successful i will applaud you.
From what i can see is that the Red Shirt movement has a far more realistic answer to the Thaksin dilemma, or the quite obvious dialectics of the issue, and that is to give both Thaksin supporters and opponents a space in their movement.
This obsession with Thaksin of yours, and yes – it is an obsession, bores me to death. I am tired of being forced into the same annoying and useless conversation i began getting tired of already ten years ago.
Malaysia’s long history of financial scandals
It’s “cool to be corrupt” in Malaysia. PM Najib, like fugitive ex-Thai PM Thaksin, should promote this political slogan.
Financial scandal this big … yet Malaysians are NOT protesting in the streets. Amazing Malaysia!
Dealing with disaster in Myanmar
Thanks for the reminder. A lot of relatives in trouble as well!
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
Nick: I see my reference to Giles has sent your handwaving off in another direction! Now I am a leftist Yellow!
And you are still a Red Farang, indulging the typical RF fantasy that if you say often enough that Thaksin is irrelevant to the PT-UDD condominium people will just forget who Pheu Thai belongs to and who the leadership of UDD work for.
There is a difference between “obsessing” about Thaksin and refusing to deny his involvement in the political party supported by the UDD. “Disappearing” Thaksin from that reality is your obsession. It doesn’t actually change anything though.
You go on and on about the subtleties and varieties of Reds in the Redshirt movement and I have no doubt that at the individual level they exist. I also know that there are different groups in the Reds, some of whom may actually support a version of liberal-democracy.
But until the day arrives when they make a clear split, announce for all the world that they repudiate TS, Pheu Thai and the paid stooges leading the UDD, they remain attached to a movement and a set of leaders who have zero interest in a liberal democratic Thailand. And in such a condition they are not working for democracy in Thailand, they are working for the Shin family business, government division.
I don’t have an ideological home in Thailand, Nick, just family. It’s why I would like to see a move toward a society with rule of law and other liberal democratic features.
People like you with your constant defense of the “popular front” tactic, whereby a “democracy movement” gets mixed up with the drive to power of a wealthy Thai family with scores to settle, are anaethema to that wish.
You have found your ideological home apparently. Your constant refrain that TS and PT are the best Thailand can hope for just translates into “Thailand is not ready for liberal democracy” and/or support for “Thai-style democracy”.
We’ve had that for decades, Nick. And you want to pretend it is a goal to be worked toward in some sort of future. Your doublespeak is a perfect match for that of the Junta and the “pro-democracy” Yellows.
And none of you is interested in democracy.
Malaysian PM should resign, says expert
Dear all.I hate to see when ‘some’stupid politician ,who has a peanut sized brain is able to sway our fellowship among Malaysians.We are Malaysians,Malays,Chinese and Indians- period.The truth is, now,the PM has done something ,in his most ernest effort to catapult us ,Malaysia ,out to the world but unfortunately its by accidental discovery of his corrupt practices trying to rob us dry.Come on for the sake of GOD and FROG.Do the ‘dumb’politicians really believe that we are sooooooooooo stupid to beleive their same lame stale ‘political nursery rhymes’ which by the way, change day by in .One fellows says he is willing to take a bet RM 1000 that the news is ot true and then the news comes out that the money was indeed deposited in the alleged account but the sources were not as they seemed to be.I mean,this makes teh Watergate and Marcos scandal petty.
War in ASEAN’s troubled waters
Just look at the destruction of the beautiful and delicate coral reefs. An ecological disaster. Who’s doing it? Where is Green Peace, when we need them?
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
You are not just confusing terminology here, you seem to have very little idea about the structure of the Red Shirt movement. If you would stop getting hysterical about Thaksin every time Red Shirts are mentioned, you may see that under the various free Red Shirt groups are many whose positions range from distrust to clear opposition to Thaksin, but who still define themselves as Red.
As an example – the inventor of the color Red as an identification color for this movement – Sombat Boonngamanong – has on many occasions criticized Thaksin on stages and during his TV show.
The students keep a distance to the UDD, and are not part of the UDD, or in any way connected to Thaksin or Pueah Thai Party. However, the clear majority of their supporters are people who since years have participated in Red Shirt protests as Red Shirt protesters for whom presently the only avenue of showing their opposition to the coup in public are joining the student led protests.
The students themselves are also not as occupied with Thaksin as you are. Their position towards Thaksin is ambiguous, their protests are concerning structural issues. Which is a very similar position many of the free Red Shirts have, but also many people within the UDD nowadays.
The only people and groups who are as obsessed with the Thaksin issue and the “moral people” vs. “bad people (Thaksin and PT)” discourse as you seem to be are the groups under the Yellow alliance.
Are you sure that your ideological home is not within the wider Yellow movement, in particular the more leftist NGO part of the Yellow movement? I say that because the rather frustrating conversations i am having with you here are quite similar to the ones i have had with them on countless occasions. In particular your tendency to constantly try to pull the conversation towards Thaksin, and to dismiss anything that is Red along those grounds, is rather reminiscent of why many of the leftists joined a strategic alliance with the Yellow movement.
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
Nick: You really need to begin to pay attention to what you say.
In another post you more or less identify the Bangkok students as “free Reds”, or at least suggest that they were a regular part of “non-UDD free Red protests” during the YL administration.
Now you are suggesting that various fine divisions of what you laughingly believe is a pro-democracy movement were not sure about either Dao Din or the Bkk students but are now both perceived by said groups as an independent pro-democracy group.
So which is it? Were the Bkk students part of “non-UDD free Red” (hope I’m not confusing the terminology here- wouldn’t want the People’s Front misidentified as the Peoples Front) activities or were they strangers whose affiliation was suspect?
Calling you on your hand-waving and strawman-building, your “inner discourse” habit of using “wink-wink nudge-nudge” as a form of argument, and your constant inability to deal with disagreement is not “nit-picking”, Nick.
The old saw about “splittists” on the left being the reason for its failure would appear to apply more aptly to your characterization of the sub-groups in the Thaksin-PT-UDD condominium than to my insistence that there is little to no evidence of a movement toward liberal democracy in that vast division of subdivisions.
I think the left has receded due to the kind of vacuous emotionalized moralizing that you indulge in when you fail again and again to confront the flaws and contradictions in your own “inner discourse”.
One way or the other, I really hope that someone in the NDM will come out and deny categorically Nick’s suggestion that they were regularly affiliated with the Reds. The last thing a democracy movement in Thailand needs is yet more taint from the crony-capitalist liberation movement.
Dealing with disaster in Myanmar
#1.1.1
Res ipsa loquiteur (leaving the ‘e’ purposely}.
BTW Dagon was Yangon b/f Rangoon was Yangon.
Was not a product of parochial school such as ‘S.H.S #1 Dagon’, but rather a monastic school graduate, therefour cann knot spel corrrectly.
‘Don’t forget to donate #1.1.1 & #1.1.1.1’
Lamenting the past do not justify one not to care for the future.
Review of Brothers in Arms
Thank you, Shane Tarr, for that fascinating insight!
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
If you are aware, then why ask? Are you playing agent provocateur, or have you completely forgotten what times we are living in?
And as to sharing any more – i believe i have shared enough so that even you can get the picture. Any more than that i will not, especially nothing that might bring people already in trouble into even more.
As to you not being convinced of anything – this sort of constant nitpicking and inability to look beyond their own narrow ideological frames is quite typical of so called “progressives” all over the world, and one of the main reasons the left sadly almost everywhere lost itself into a state of utter irrelevancy while it would though be desperately needed as a counterweight to neo-liberalists and the rising new right.
(end of rant)
Malaysia’s long history of financial scandals
The plotted downfall of Tuanku after May 13, and the implementation of NEP to garnish and to upgrade the elite skill, wealth & knowledge gradually leads to greed and corruption contributed to today’s arrogant racist and religious bully. The component parties are suppressively obedience, resulted no check and balance.
As time passed, the dominant party with government machinery implemented a lot of unfavorable policies to the rakyat just to sustain their position until today.
Facebook and Myanmar’s two floods
Right. Hlaing Myit and Bago (Pegu) Myit. Joined at Than-lyat-soon to become Yangon Myit.
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
Again with the empty hand-waving, Nick.
I am asking you to tell us what was being protested at the “non-UDD free Red protests” at which you saw these students. I doubt anyone here needs you to do another little general catalogue of things that Reds have done in order to cover up for the lack of a specific answer.
It’s a simple question and I am sure that if you just stop the interminable faux-sighing you rely on in place of argument you could tell us. That way we could check for articles and photos to see how these particular “non-UDD free Red protests” were treated in the press.
Surprisingly enough, a lot of these little events were Tweeted about and discussed on social media. I know that isn’t “internal discourse”, but it is a kind of awareness that goes beyond you and a few others.
And I go on about “homies” and your beloved “internal discourse” because like anyone interested enough, I am aware that there were various Red demos over the period of the Yingluck administration. None of them convinced me that there was much hope of an independent movement pushing for liberal-democracy likely to grow out of the Thaksin-PT-UDD condominium. Therefore I assume that you must have privileged information since you seem to think otherwise.
Please share.
Hopes for democracy in Thailand
Emjay, it seems that you have entirely missed several years of development in Thai street politics. Otherwise you would not ask me such an astonishingly uninformed question.
In the period between the 2011 election and the start of the PDRC protests in late 2013 there were countless protests and seminars organized by the myriad of free Red Shirt groups ranging from topics of freeing political prisoners to protesting against the different proposals of amnesty up to demanding changes in the lese majeste laws – all within the context of trying to create a more liberal democracy in Thailand.
The sad part is that many people mistakenly believed that this brief period of liberalization under the elected government would equate also in safety in terms of freedom of speech. However, what has been said on stages and in seminars back then was during the PDRC protests and after the coup used to accuse the then government of “neglecting to enforce the law properly” ( http://bangkokpost.com/news/politics/649072/government-defends-lese-majeste-sentences ). Some of the first targets after the coup and quite a few of the exiles were the more outspoken figures from those groups.
These protests and seminars were public, so i have no idea why in this context you waffle on about “homies” and “internal discourse”.
Dealing with disaster in Myanmar
There is no denying (and this IS a racist remark) that Chinese are the root of all extinction, tiger, bear, all sorts of lizards, snakes, rhino, and perhaps millions others in the name of that elusive erection and longevity or “vigor” whatever it is, the world over. And there is no conscience shown by either the leading power in mainland China itself or so many millions of “educated” diaspora as Chinese even in Taiwan consider themselves as diaspora which fits in well with guanxi system. In an indirect way this is akin to the Rohingya (a made-up word for a genuinely existing people) diaspora who keep drumming up the flame in the name of a Caliphate with no regard tot he danger posed to the people on the ground.
Having said that if you look hard, the threat from China pales in comparison to wholesale destruction by the “West” who wants to have control of everything including water and crops.
As it happens these times of crisis are the ideal opportunity for either taking out native crops and vegetation (Japanese are already trying make a patent on Tha-na ka, for example) or introducing GMO seeds via Trojan Horse as is seen now in Afghanistan. http://blog.realhealthtalk.com/your-tax-dollars-wasted-on-failed-gmo-soybean-project-in-afghanistan/
In some sense the “Generals'” blanket locking the oh-so-generous foreign “aids” does have some basis to it. For sure when the Nargis aids were finally opened up the people who benefited most are the Generals themselves, Nayubg-bin-lay-zay traders and new and old prostitutes in Boagaly, Lutputta and Chang Thar. After all that famous Burmese iteration of Gene Sharp’s Color Revolution was funded and oragnised over decades by CIA fronts like NED and Soros’ various joints. (Yes this does sound like Landdestroyer)
And masses of youth now indoctrinated in places like ANU would become cadres for that very processes like those young idealistic monks still buoyed up to do the biddings for “Progress” and “Equanimity” (Baloney’s in different names).
As for China having “Cold” and modern colonialism, there are proof aplenty. http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/2015/feb/12/how-much-of-australias-farmland-is-owned-by-foreign-companies while people are still concentrating on good old fashion killing colonialism. http://www.smh.com.au/world/chinas-great-wall-of-sand-unifies-allies-in-pacific-says-us-naval-chief-20150808-giuonl.html
Reading the tea leaves of 1MDB
[…] will begin to wonder if there is truth to the many preposterous allegations on 1MDB by members of the […]
Breaking the mould: Singapore elections 2015
I beg to differ. The PAP will lose more votes than they had in the 2011 general election.
Technology for Transparency
Great Article. Thanks for the info. Does anyone know where I can find a blank “2011 UK C1” to fill out?