In the mid 1990’s I asked a friend of mine for information about Taksin. My friend was a wealthy investor in the Thai stock exchange, and had access to very detailed financial information about people and companies in Thailand. He asked one of his assistants to research the question for me, which took a number of weeks. The reply which came back was very interesting. His overt net worth at that time was heavily dominated by the value of Shin Corp – I can’t remember how much that was at the time but certainly miniscule compared to his net worth in 2006 (I seem to recollect something like 200 million for the paper value of Shin Corp) – but the conclusion was that this overt value of Shin Corp, and his net worth as a whole including all his assets – was pretty much exactly counterbalanced by massive borrowings that were virtually as much as the net worth on paper. My friend described his business empire on the one hand as something like a bank rather than a conventional business, because it was so highly leveraged, and on the other hand as a front for Singapore Telekom, which he described as the backbone of Shin Corp. So the rise from close to zero in the mid 1990’s to billions in 2006 was quite a steep rise. It would be interesting to know what proportion of that came in the period after his involvement in politics.
Lol and unanimously elected no less, she did even better than sad dam Hussein who could only muster 99% of the votes.
Anyway to use thida’s own words
She said that the question of who takes the lead of UDD should be decided by local chaptersтА▓ election, but the organization “is too plagued with conflicts and not united enough” for such procedure.
All is not lost for the Thais. I think the problem of the Thai people is ignorance in our own history. Contrary to the Buddhist principle, we were trained to have too much pride. That is “False Pride,” which serves only to enrich people who are in control and fuels hatred toward people who take different position from us. Only education will solved this problem. Children need to understand the concept of diversity at the very young age. They need to understand that the Thai’s culture is a melting pot of cultures since ancient time. And many groups of people contributed to make Thailand of today. People migrate, mix, and learn from each other. I bet many would be surprise to learn that this “Pandin Thai” does actually go far beyond Ratthanagosin and Ayutthaya eras. This seed needs to be spout and it will take people like you to teach these children.
“not looked down upon” is a polite way of saying “most Burmese are scared of the Chinese” (aren’t we all LOL)
I lived in Burma during the 50’s and the 60’s. I don’t think you did. Ne Win (a.k.a. Shu Maung) kicked out a lot of Indians. The Chinese problem in those days was mainly about Communist insurgents supported by the PLA (and a bit earlier it also about KMT remnants supported by the CIA). Just before I left Burma, I remember Mao trying to export his stupid “Cultural Revolution” into Burma and that scared a lot of Burmese, even the top generals of that time; Ne Win, Aung Gyi, San Yu, etc. who were as you noted, all ethnically half-Chinese.
Excellent report. I apologize for my poor English. Anyway, I suggest it would be really fun and surprising for readers if you would do the same with some media owners and their reporters (team), one by one personally, on how and why each of them lost a big benefits during Thaksin government,and that why they constantly buried red-shirt news and hundred deaths from public during the rising of red shirt years ago, but right now kept cheerfully report democrat demonstration so lively in newspaper and TVs…Resulting in mistakenly understanding among all demonstrators that they are majority of this country!!, despite the 4-consecutive winning elections of Thaksin related parties. Most reports was done already on Sonthi Lim, ASTV and Manager Newspaper owners, yellow shirt leader. But there’re more of these medias, esp. on TV and Newspaper. One of them mentioned on the upper comment, the big news provider to English readers. There’re reports I mentioned in Thai language, very lightening.
My concept of principle – well the first would be, one person, one vote, NOT, one city folk 3 votes, one smelly farmer (someone from the Democrats team blurt that sometime back) half vote!
As for the “in the interest of Thailand” – That’s the statement Kim Jong Eul also made and repeat ad nauseam
It is quite clear to me that few people actually understand the structures of mass organisations based on one or two issues. Within the UDD there is a wide spectrum of political ideas. The principles of the UDD were initially to defend democracy against any dictatorships.
All incarnations of the misnamed PAD have the same problem with many strands of political ideology.
By Nature all mass organisations that exist need to be undemocratic in nature otherwise different factions would try and claim leadership.This is the reason why the PAD is so fragmented with dubious personalities fighting between themselves. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO POINT IN STATING THE OBVIOUS AND CLAIMING THESE MASSED BASED ORGANISATIONS ARE UNDEMOCRATIC.IT IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST.
Suthep has provided some more details about his visions for Thailand. It seems to me that he must either have read himself (what I doubt)or one of his advisors Lenin “What is to be done”. He follows the programme wuite closely! In short, the aim is to establish a “Sovjet-Thailand under the constitutional monarchy”, perhaps as a “Peoples Democratic Monarchy of Thailand”.
He wants to set up a peoples council in which different workers groups are represented. In real terms it is a kind of polit-bureau based on those selected by the respective sovjets of the workers/professionals. This polit bureau (people council) shall select a central committee as the acting government with the main task to clean out all Thaksinism. This will certainly take quite a long time. Interesting is the issue how to select the leader or secretary general of sovjet Thailand or the great chairman. Abhisit wanted the king to make the selection. While the king definitly is above all political quarrels and of highest moral standards, thus able to select the most appropriate leader, he might be influenced by advisors that have an own agenda, less based on moral virtues.
To be on the sure side, the selection should be done by somebody who is neutral with regards to politics, power etc. in Thailand, and has a democratic legitimation. To be in line with the visions of Suthep, the person should have a proper knowledge of the workings of a sovjet system as well. My proposal is therefore to ask Mrs. Merkel to make the right selection.
In addition, the difficulty might be reduced by asking currently un-employed politicians to take over the job in Thailand. Possibly, politicians from a party that can never gain a majority would fit best. Here the German Liberal party (FDP) might be an excellent choice. Westerwelle as interim prime-minister of Thailand would be great.
One perk of being a professional party pooper is finding every thing funny. And contrary to popular belief, it is not money but fun that makes life happy and perhaps worth living.
Imagine a pond full of fish, happily helping each other, working together and prospering. And they can see through their own glass cage that the others on the other side are not doing so well at all. Scales falling off, biting each other, cannibalizing and dwindling in numbers. Yet one day, the roles are simply reversed. Exact opposite on both sides. How so? Simple difference is that the owner decided to put varying amount of food in each tank for those two periods. Yet one can imagine old wise fish on each side proffer-ring boundless wisdom to his or her own school (pun intended) various theories of how these wonderful/ disastrous consequences are products of their actions and activities in each tank and may be writing books about it on Fish Galaxy Tablet with waterfall powered electricity under LED lights sipping eh… water.
This guy called Mahathir said he knew, and surely he still does as he is agent-ing for some of them, very well of every wealthy businessman in the country. Malaysia has properly discriminatory treatment of its citizens based purely on race quite LEGALLY with no indentation whatsoever on any spirit of these cute little words “Rule of Law”. Yet those days- two decades- under the man were the good old golden days of the country.
The assertion that by codifying the conduct with same level of thoroughly LEGAL overt discrimination would somehow increases the amount of money people get on mathematical average (the currently prevailing definition of a successful economy) is funny.
In other words does it mean that Mahathir’s era was more in tune with this “Rule Of Law” thingy that the country “prospered” (meaning average money earned – with no reference to distribution) and it is not the case now because currently the state is out of tune with this “Rule of Law”? Or does it mean that one can prosper with being well out of tune with this “Rule of Law” thingy but there is a ceiling until one has to be more conforming with it as this article seems to advocate?
After all the sort of the rule of law advocated in the article seems more to do with protection of patents and regulatory rights which always favors the people who does write the law and rules and regulations or force people to write the law. By THE people truly above the law. As every one should know as “Too Big To Fail” is now a bestseller book well accepted by inured truly exploited and ignorant majority public advised by one of their own numbers.
Simple question here is “was this article written by one of the fish?”
My daughter faced similar experience with Alison. Her secondary school teacher called her and other non-Muslim friends ‘infidels’. This experience took her by surprise and she was so angry with her teacher and not to mention the subject. As parents we sat down with her and explained about other forms of ‘prejudice’ by relating to world history, politics and the human behaviour. The most important point I would think, this experience gave her the opportunity to think rationally and be confident about herself. Unfortunately many of us fail to do so.
Yes, I can relate to Alison’s experience and kudos for speaking up!
Although Suthep has managed to bring a number of red shirts back into the PTP fold through his psychodrama antics, they do not necessarily therefore support the blanket amnesty again.
Indeed they, as I, want to see the butcher of Bangkok and his henchman stand trial.
The blanket amnesty was a very stupid and ill-timed move on the part of the PTP.
The article itself is very good but…in some places the wordings are odd.
I do take exception to a number things but will refer to only this:
1) “what brought all of these Thais together as much as the amnesty bill itself, was the man who stood to gain more than any other from its passage: former and still de facto Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.”
This is not true. Abhisit and Suhtep are under indictment for murder. They risk to have gained far more. Now though they realize they have to go for the whole kit and caboodle because, totally overthrowing the current government is their best chance of avoiding being tried for murder. In theory, they risk the death penalty if found guilty.
2) “Like its discredited predecessor, the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD), and the Reds’ equivalent, the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the CMD is democratic in neither composition nor intent. Its leaders are largely self-appointed and seek power for its spoils and impunity, rather than a people’s mandate.”
PAD represented a tiny minority. The NPP, their political party created to contest elections manned only 1.7% of the vote in Bangkok, its stronghold. The UDD fights for a continuance of democracy, however slow that might be and represent a huge number of voters compared to the PAD/NPP.
Note also UDD continue to fight for a one-man-one-vote policy were as NPP clearly stated they favor a government of only 30% elected by the people.
3) Thaksin being convicted for “abuse of power” is not the same as “corruption” as another commenter has pointed out. Beside that it should be mentioned the court which convicted him was functioning within the post context of the military-appointed government and thereby lost all legitimacy. Thaksin’s conviction was by a kangaroo court.
Thaksin surely is a man of dubious character but so are most of the super rich in Thailand who, put under the same microscope would certainly be found to have done their own business in just as unscrupulous ways as Thaksin, or even more so considering they have been milking the country dry for well over half a century.
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A royal intervention?
I wonder if this will have some bearing on the situation: http://notthenation.com/2013/12/thongdaeng-abdicates-to-foo-foo/
A homage to #thaistory?
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
In the mid 1990’s I asked a friend of mine for information about Taksin. My friend was a wealthy investor in the Thai stock exchange, and had access to very detailed financial information about people and companies in Thailand. He asked one of his assistants to research the question for me, which took a number of weeks. The reply which came back was very interesting. His overt net worth at that time was heavily dominated by the value of Shin Corp – I can’t remember how much that was at the time but certainly miniscule compared to his net worth in 2006 (I seem to recollect something like 200 million for the paper value of Shin Corp) – but the conclusion was that this overt value of Shin Corp, and his net worth as a whole including all his assets – was pretty much exactly counterbalanced by massive borrowings that were virtually as much as the net worth on paper. My friend described his business empire on the one hand as something like a bank rather than a conventional business, because it was so highly leveraged, and on the other hand as a front for Singapore Telekom, which he described as the backbone of Shin Corp. So the rise from close to zero in the mid 1990’s to billions in 2006 was quite a steep rise. It would be interesting to know what proportion of that came in the period after his involvement in politics.
November rain for democracy in Thailand
Well god forbid that red shirts should actually get a vote in the organisation that represents them.They might elect the wrong type of people.
Perhaps the UDD should get in touch with Suthep he had a few ideas in stopping that from happening.
November rain for democracy in Thailand
Lol and unanimously elected no less, she did even better than sad dam Hussein who could only muster 99% of the votes.
Anyway to use thida’s own words
She said that the question of who takes the lead of UDD should be decided by local chaptersтА▓ election, but the organization “is too plagued with conflicts and not united enough” for such procedure.
http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNM01qa3lPVEUwTVE9PQ==&catid=03
The UDD really needs to get a grip.
The hypocrisy abounds on all sides.
A tale of two cities, again?
All is not lost for the Thais. I think the problem of the Thai people is ignorance in our own history. Contrary to the Buddhist principle, we were trained to have too much pride. That is “False Pride,” which serves only to enrich people who are in control and fuels hatred toward people who take different position from us. Only education will solved this problem. Children need to understand the concept of diversity at the very young age. They need to understand that the Thai’s culture is a melting pot of cultures since ancient time. And many groups of people contributed to make Thailand of today. People migrate, mix, and learn from each other. I bet many would be surprise to learn that this “Pandin Thai” does actually go far beyond Ratthanagosin and Ayutthaya eras. This seed needs to be spout and it will take people like you to teach these children.
The rule of law and Malaysia’s middle income trap
“not looked down upon” is a polite way of saying “most Burmese are scared of the Chinese” (aren’t we all LOL)
I lived in Burma during the 50’s and the 60’s. I don’t think you did. Ne Win (a.k.a. Shu Maung) kicked out a lot of Indians. The Chinese problem in those days was mainly about Communist insurgents supported by the PLA (and a bit earlier it also about KMT remnants supported by the CIA). Just before I left Burma, I remember Mao trying to export his stupid “Cultural Revolution” into Burma and that scared a lot of Burmese, even the top generals of that time; Ne Win, Aung Gyi, San Yu, etc. who were as you noted, all ethnically half-Chinese.
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
And do you know how many Reds died after the same clash? it was 3.
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
Excellent report. I apologize for my poor English. Anyway, I suggest it would be really fun and surprising for readers if you would do the same with some media owners and their reporters (team), one by one personally, on how and why each of them lost a big benefits during Thaksin government,and that why they constantly buried red-shirt news and hundred deaths from public during the rising of red shirt years ago, but right now kept cheerfully report democrat demonstration so lively in newspaper and TVs…Resulting in mistakenly understanding among all demonstrators that they are majority of this country!!, despite the 4-consecutive winning elections of Thaksin related parties. Most reports was done already on Sonthi Lim, ASTV and Manager Newspaper owners, yellow shirt leader. But there’re more of these medias, esp. on TV and Newspaper. One of them mentioned on the upper comment, the big news provider to English readers. There’re reports I mentioned in Thai language, very lightening.
Because I considered them medias of the deaths.
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
My concept of principle – well the first would be, one person, one vote, NOT, one city folk 3 votes, one smelly farmer (someone from the Democrats team blurt that sometime back) half vote!
As for the “in the interest of Thailand” – That’s the statement Kim Jong Eul also made and repeat ad nauseam
Time to vote Democrat!
NM accepting “comic relief” comments now?
November rain for democracy in Thailand
It is quite clear to me that few people actually understand the structures of mass organisations based on one or two issues. Within the UDD there is a wide spectrum of political ideas. The principles of the UDD were initially to defend democracy against any dictatorships.
All incarnations of the misnamed PAD have the same problem with many strands of political ideology.
By Nature all mass organisations that exist need to be undemocratic in nature otherwise different factions would try and claim leadership.This is the reason why the PAD is so fragmented with dubious personalities fighting between themselves. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO POINT IN STATING THE OBVIOUS AND CLAIMING THESE MASSED BASED ORGANISATIONS ARE UNDEMOCRATIC.IT IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST.
What does Suthep really want?
Suthep has provided some more details about his visions for Thailand. It seems to me that he must either have read himself (what I doubt)or one of his advisors Lenin “What is to be done”. He follows the programme wuite closely! In short, the aim is to establish a “Sovjet-Thailand under the constitutional monarchy”, perhaps as a “Peoples Democratic Monarchy of Thailand”.
He wants to set up a peoples council in which different workers groups are represented. In real terms it is a kind of polit-bureau based on those selected by the respective sovjets of the workers/professionals. This polit bureau (people council) shall select a central committee as the acting government with the main task to clean out all Thaksinism. This will certainly take quite a long time. Interesting is the issue how to select the leader or secretary general of sovjet Thailand or the great chairman. Abhisit wanted the king to make the selection. While the king definitly is above all political quarrels and of highest moral standards, thus able to select the most appropriate leader, he might be influenced by advisors that have an own agenda, less based on moral virtues.
To be on the sure side, the selection should be done by somebody who is neutral with regards to politics, power etc. in Thailand, and has a democratic legitimation. To be in line with the visions of Suthep, the person should have a proper knowledge of the workings of a sovjet system as well. My proposal is therefore to ask Mrs. Merkel to make the right selection.
In addition, the difficulty might be reduced by asking currently un-employed politicians to take over the job in Thailand. Possibly, politicians from a party that can never gain a majority would fit best. Here the German Liberal party (FDP) might be an excellent choice. Westerwelle as interim prime-minister of Thailand would be great.
November rain for democracy in Thailand
“And if she was not its unelected leader the UDD would fall into the hands of thaksinistas or extremists, so it’s actually a god thing.”
I suspect it’s more of a demagogue thing….
The rule of law and Malaysia’s middle income trap
One perk of being a professional party pooper is finding every thing funny. And contrary to popular belief, it is not money but fun that makes life happy and perhaps worth living.
Imagine a pond full of fish, happily helping each other, working together and prospering. And they can see through their own glass cage that the others on the other side are not doing so well at all. Scales falling off, biting each other, cannibalizing and dwindling in numbers. Yet one day, the roles are simply reversed. Exact opposite on both sides. How so? Simple difference is that the owner decided to put varying amount of food in each tank for those two periods. Yet one can imagine old wise fish on each side proffer-ring boundless wisdom to his or her own school (pun intended) various theories of how these wonderful/ disastrous consequences are products of their actions and activities in each tank and may be writing books about it on Fish Galaxy Tablet with waterfall powered electricity under LED lights sipping eh… water.
This guy called Mahathir said he knew, and surely he still does as he is agent-ing for some of them, very well of every wealthy businessman in the country. Malaysia has properly discriminatory treatment of its citizens based purely on race quite LEGALLY with no indentation whatsoever on any spirit of these cute little words “Rule of Law”. Yet those days- two decades- under the man were the good old golden days of the country.
The assertion that by codifying the conduct with same level of thoroughly LEGAL overt discrimination would somehow increases the amount of money people get on mathematical average (the currently prevailing definition of a successful economy) is funny.
In other words does it mean that Mahathir’s era was more in tune with this “Rule Of Law” thingy that the country “prospered” (meaning average money earned – with no reference to distribution) and it is not the case now because currently the state is out of tune with this “Rule of Law”? Or does it mean that one can prosper with being well out of tune with this “Rule of Law” thingy but there is a ceiling until one has to be more conforming with it as this article seems to advocate?
After all the sort of the rule of law advocated in the article seems more to do with protection of patents and regulatory rights which always favors the people who does write the law and rules and regulations or force people to write the law. By THE people truly above the law. As every one should know as “Too Big To Fail” is now a bestseller book well accepted by inured truly exploited and ignorant majority public advised by one of their own numbers.
Simple question here is “was this article written by one of the fish?”
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
I think this is a play on the current phrase “Don’t Thai to me” which ” is don’t lie to me”
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
What study has ever shown any correlation between education levels and “valid democratic outcomes”??
Say what, cakap apa?
My daughter faced similar experience with Alison. Her secondary school teacher called her and other non-Muslim friends ‘infidels’. This experience took her by surprise and she was so angry with her teacher and not to mention the subject. As parents we sat down with her and explained about other forms of ‘prejudice’ by relating to world history, politics and the human behaviour. The most important point I would think, this experience gave her the opportunity to think rationally and be confident about herself. Unfortunately many of us fail to do so.
Yes, I can relate to Alison’s experience and kudos for speaking up!
November rain for democracy in Thailand
Although Suthep has managed to bring a number of red shirts back into the PTP fold through his psychodrama antics, they do not necessarily therefore support the blanket amnesty again.
Indeed they, as I, want to see the butcher of Bangkok and his henchman stand trial.
The blanket amnesty was a very stupid and ill-timed move on the part of the PTP.
Thailand must put an end to decades of impunity.
November rain for democracy in Thailand
The article itself is very good but…in some places the wordings are odd.
I do take exception to a number things but will refer to only this:
1) “what brought all of these Thais together as much as the amnesty bill itself, was the man who stood to gain more than any other from its passage: former and still de facto Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.”
This is not true. Abhisit and Suhtep are under indictment for murder. They risk to have gained far more. Now though they realize they have to go for the whole kit and caboodle because, totally overthrowing the current government is their best chance of avoiding being tried for murder. In theory, they risk the death penalty if found guilty.
2) “Like its discredited predecessor, the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD), and the Reds’ equivalent, the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the CMD is democratic in neither composition nor intent. Its leaders are largely self-appointed and seek power for its spoils and impunity, rather than a people’s mandate.”
PAD represented a tiny minority. The NPP, their political party created to contest elections manned only 1.7% of the vote in Bangkok, its stronghold. The UDD fights for a continuance of democracy, however slow that might be and represent a huge number of voters compared to the PAD/NPP.
Note also UDD continue to fight for a one-man-one-vote policy were as NPP clearly stated they favor a government of only 30% elected by the people.
3) Thaksin being convicted for “abuse of power” is not the same as “corruption” as another commenter has pointed out. Beside that it should be mentioned the court which convicted him was functioning within the post context of the military-appointed government and thereby lost all legitimacy. Thaksin’s conviction was by a kangaroo court.
Thaksin surely is a man of dubious character but so are most of the super rich in Thailand who, put under the same microscope would certainly be found to have done their own business in just as unscrupulous ways as Thaksin, or even more so considering they have been milking the country dry for well over half a century.
November rain for democracy in Thailand
Thida is an elected leader, as are all the other UDD leaders:
https://www.google.com/search?q=thida+elected+udd&oq=thida+elected+udd