“PADLand.” You know, that’s not too hard to imagine. Siam hasn’t been a unified kingdom for very long, historically speaking. The South was the last region to submit to Bangkok. Why can’t we have two kingdoms, with different constitutions, ruled by the same monarch? Sort of like the Commonwealth.
The South and Bangkok would become PADLand (just don’t call it Taksinland), have Sarit’s 1959 Constitution with the monarch appointing the entire legislature and a ban on political parties. It would have strict rules against foreign investment, but make its way in the global economy with services. They can even keep a power plant or two, just to keep the EGAT union happy. Its GDP/capita and human development scores, without all those uneducated low-income farmers to drag down the averages, would probably be on par with Singapore.
Siam (the rest of Thailand) would have the People’s Constitution of 1997 or the King Anand’s short-lived Constitution of 1946, and the vast majority of the industrial and agricultural base.
I won’t even mention the “peace dividend” that would occur with the establishment of Pattaniland.
Nick: There is no need for the King to get involved this time – This current matter can easily be solved by the government as per my simple proposal outlined here: http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/
I am still waiting to be told why such a proposal would not work, and am increasingly of the view that Samak & Co are not really interested in solving the problem, and would rather have a winner take all outcome.
(which IMO would only be a temporary victory anyway, as the underlying problems will still be there)
We all know the PAD are unreasonable in their demands for the government to resign, but maybe it’s time to ask is the government reasonable in it’s attempts to end the crisis?
David Brown: Thanks for the summary – just a couple of comments:
1. I think 26 July you have should actually be 26 August
2. IMO you were a little light on tax evasion issue, and the role of tax officials in the process
3. You glossed over the very serious issue of extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs (I wonder if you would appreciate any fellow Green Lefty’s being summarily executed for dabbling in drugs?)
4. I also think you were light on the policy corruption issue.
As a sometime attendee of Green Left events, I am a little surprised at your portrayal of Thaksin as a Chavez type character – if that is the reality, then all I can say is God help the Venezuelans!
🙂
Yes the Thai and foreign media could help a lot to diffuse the situation by ‘pouring it on’ that PAD’s unlawful tactics demeans their cause and quickly erodes support for their cause.
Sondhi L invited foreign reporters to an outdoor press conference at Govt House on Saturday. He later took to the stage to berate the same reporters for not seeing things correctly and asking dumb questions. Naturally, the correct way is PAD’s way. In this respect, he’s a stand-in for Thaksin, who took a similar line towards press inquiry.
Does PAD care about foreign perceptions of their right-wing revolution? Probably not.
You may also be interested in my proposed (laymans, non academic) solution to the current standoff, which I have briefly outlined here: http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/
Matty what corruption? Thaksin?? this has not been proven at all that he or his government were any more or less corrupt than the previous governments- unless you want to condemn someone on the propagandising and inconclusive bullshit of PSTV’s Sondhi Lim and his media cronies. Thaksin did not break any laws while he was in government. Unless you want to believe a judiciary stacked by khor Mor Chor with anti-Thaksinites still trying to legitimise their illegal actions against Thailand’s progressive 1997 Constitution. Incidently, you may not know this, but Sondhi has a personal grudge on Thaksin that goes back to 2001. The whole issue involving Thaksin is personal. Sondhi is, and has been for a long time, heavily indebt and wanted Thaksin to bail him out using his influence. Needless to say he did not do that. Sondhi aspired to be like Thaksin and could not make it. His cunning and talent is to make this into a public vendetta through spins, lies and fiery empty-rhetoric day in day out over some five years. This has had an impressive brainwashing impact in Thailand especially among middle classes. Sondhi, PAD and their well-paid small “army of louts” and junkies bused in from the south (Baht 3,000/head) are losers. As are the Democrats (hoping to make a government through any means), the seventy-six Senators emplaced by people appointed by Khor Mor Chor, and of course the Puppet Master Prem and his elite and corrupt disgruntled cohorts. These are the folk behind the small but extermely noisy and well financed rebellion aginst a legitimately elected popular government. PPP have been judged not on performance as they have never been allowed to govern. So how can they be criticised? When Samak campaigned he said those who do not favour the coup choice him; those who do not want the current illicit 2007 Constitution (which protects the coup makers and their cronies) choose PPP. He made it clear before elections this was his agenda. The day he announced his government PAD made the comment on the intent to bring the democratically elected PPP down. PAD are a small dictatorship and have made it clear that even if they bring the current government down they want a say in the election of the next PM and a stacked 70:30 system of government. What democracy is this? Be better informed boys.
Dog Lover: I basically agree that would be a good thing, and hopefully it can occur without bloodshed.
It’s a bit of a chicken and egg thing – does the King intervening cause the politicians to never be able to sort things out themselves, or is it because the politicians cannot sort things out that the King is forced to intervene?
There are arguments on both sides, but IMO the jury is still out on that question.
I post on these threads for one reason only: To hammer away at the notion that the country needs politicians with integrity & humility – once that is achieved, the monarchy will become as irrelevant as a constitututional monarchy should be.
nganadeleg: “btw, whilst I think the last 60 years in Thailand would have been much worse without the King around, I don’t believe the King can do no wrong, and I think his biggest failure has been not preparing the country well enough for his passing.
(or not allowing the country to prepare).”
An interesting point, but in a constitutional monarchy it should not matter what happens when the king dies. He’s just replaced by the heir apparent in an orderly and legal manner.
Hence, as others have pointed out, preparing for his passing and the continuance of the constitutional monarchy and the house of Chakri might have been best served by working for a strong parliamentary system. Rather, the king has made things worse for Thais and his successors by making himself seem indispensable to each political crisis. That means the monarchy is always in danger.
And it could get worse. If the king does throw more support behind Samak what lesson do the PADites draw?
Remember that he has supported him to date (so I think this thread is a bit off track in its initial question). Think of the previous PAD D-Day, when the king met and publicly supported Ai Mak.
If the PADites see the king as having failed them and if the Thaksinites already think this way following the coup (you really think there’s no evidence of palace intervention in that event??), then the monarchy loses big time in terms of its current ideological position.
Personally, I think that might be a good thing, but I wonder if palace insiders see that they may need to make yet another deal with Sonthi Lim and Chamlong in order to preserve their own position?
With foreboding shall we all greet tomorrow’s morning because both the PAD and Samak’s government will ‘NOT BACK DOWN’. And heaven forbid the ‘showdown’ because neither side won’t back down! But knowing the intransigence of Chamlong-Sondhi and the pugnacity of Samak, I get sick that the outcome could be worse than my direst fears.
Political lessons learned from revered authors (of names long forgotten) dictate a reasoned conclusion that Samak Sundaravej will be within his constitutional authority and duty to protect the Office of the Thai Prime Minister (and related government ministries) by all means, including force, if necessary. The PAD had gravely overreached , the PAD and their leaders had deliberately broken the nation’s laws and had defied the Thai constitution with their current protests.
But tomorrow or the next when blood starts being spilled on the streets, and, the protesters are gassed and violently struck with police truncheons TO ENFORCE THE LAW I will be feeling an angry despair that the lawless protesters had failed, and, the victorious Samak Sundaravej will continue to sit, rightfully, as Prime Minister of Thailand.
A Chinese-speaking friend of mine agrees with Roger’s translation. For reference, they break it down to:
“tai = Thai
hua = Chinese/Sino
The character “yi” means “descendent”. It is a standard character used in words such as “Huayi” (overseas Chinese) or “Meiyi” (overseas/expatriate American).
ai=love
I can only see the top half of the last character. It does appear to be “tai”, though, and this would make sense. The only question is whether there is a “guo” afterwards, which would be a more complete rendering of “Thailand”. Just having the “tai” though, is acceptable.”
——-
In my experience most р╕ер╕╣р╕Бр╕Ир╕╡р╕Щ I know would have trouble reading this. If anyone has a chance to chat with someone wearing one of these shirts out and about in Bangkok I think many New Mandala readers would like to know more.
These shirts, and the message they proclaim, are an intriguing element of the wider story of protest, politics and belonging.
I wonder if the king still loves PAD as much as they claim to love him? I also wonder if the lukchin, who were big supporters of PAD remain that committed these days? The evidence seems to be that PAD lost the support of both groups. Their main backers now appear to be right-wing military leaders and former ISOC neo-fascists. They might also be lukchin, but the middle-class lukchin seem to be offside.
I forgot to mention that I think it’s about time the PAD protesters went home and had a wash and a sleep!
It seems the same old issues have been around for years and will be around for quite some time to come, so I dont see why they need to bring it all to a head this week.
Give Samak a chance to govern – if he has not taken the right lesson from this weeks events then there will be other (more appropriate) times to resume the protests.
“Looking forward to this indeed. Further to the first comment, the real issue of course is whether there will be a Lao language version.”
I’ve seen collections of papers in French that have done this in the past in the Siam Society library.
The real problem is probably the availability and budget for skilled translators.
Translation is an extremely valuable value-adding activity, yet is not usually adequately rewarded. I’ve heard of translators that have given up because there was no reward either financially or name-recognition-wise.
Good reason for a special permanent “designated translator’ position, instead of outsourcing it, as always seems to be done in organisations.
More academic recognition for translation work, especially of primary sources, would probably lead to more people producing higher quality translations. (I, for one, value a thorough annotated translation, rather than more second or third hand ruminations on a source that is not available to people with the proper linguistic skills.)
What hobby said was an idealistic situation (except for the part about education of the mass), but dirty reality tend to differ.
The reason for Thailand not even reached the ‘in theory’ stage is not because of education, but because there is a “referee”. Like two siblings when they have problems and would look up to daddy for final ruling, instead of solving the problem themselves like a grown man.
For PAD to demand a legitimate government to resign is impossible, however, if for withdrawn the constitution amendmend for say 2 years in exchange for the PAD to stop protest and PAD leaders turn themselves in. That could be a starter deal each can bring to negotiation table.
If the PAD willing to attend the table, that is…
I’m fascinated by the selection of photos and their order on the “We Love Thailand” web site fascinating. It seems that representations have changed since I was last paying attention to this topic in the late 1990s. Very interesting about who is heavily represented — and who is not but once would have been. Also, anyone have any comment on the order of the photos?
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PAD’s “General Uprising of 26 August 2008”
“PADLand.” You know, that’s not too hard to imagine. Siam hasn’t been a unified kingdom for very long, historically speaking. The South was the last region to submit to Bangkok. Why can’t we have two kingdoms, with different constitutions, ruled by the same monarch? Sort of like the Commonwealth.
The South and Bangkok would become PADLand (just don’t call it Taksinland), have Sarit’s 1959 Constitution with the monarch appointing the entire legislature and a ban on political parties. It would have strict rules against foreign investment, but make its way in the global economy with services. They can even keep a power plant or two, just to keep the EGAT union happy. Its GDP/capita and human development scores, without all those uneducated low-income farmers to drag down the averages, would probably be on par with Singapore.
Siam (the rest of Thailand) would have the People’s Constitution of 1997 or the King Anand’s short-lived Constitution of 1946, and the vast majority of the industrial and agricultural base.
I won’t even mention the “peace dividend” that would occur with the establishment of Pattaniland.
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
Nick: There is no need for the King to get involved this time – This current matter can easily be solved by the government as per my simple proposal outlined here: http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/
I am still waiting to be told why such a proposal would not work, and am increasingly of the view that Samak & Co are not really interested in solving the problem, and would rather have a winner take all outcome.
(which IMO would only be a temporary victory anyway, as the underlying problems will still be there)
We all know the PAD are unreasonable in their demands for the government to resign, but maybe it’s time to ask is the government reasonable in it’s attempts to end the crisis?
PAD: fighting the “last war”
David Brown: Thanks for the summary – just a couple of comments:
1. I think 26 July you have should actually be 26 August
2. IMO you were a little light on tax evasion issue, and the role of tax officials in the process
3. You glossed over the very serious issue of extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs (I wonder if you would appreciate any fellow Green Lefty’s being summarily executed for dabbling in drugs?)
4. I also think you were light on the policy corruption issue.
As a sometime attendee of Green Left events, I am a little surprised at your portrayal of Thaksin as a Chavez type character – if that is the reality, then all I can say is God help the Venezuelans!
🙂
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
Yes the Thai and foreign media could help a lot to diffuse the situation by ‘pouring it on’ that PAD’s unlawful tactics demeans their cause and quickly erodes support for their cause.
Give up PAD and back down to avoid bloodshed.
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
Sondhi L invited foreign reporters to an outdoor press conference at Govt House on Saturday. He later took to the stage to berate the same reporters for not seeing things correctly and asking dumb questions. Naturally, the correct way is PAD’s way. In this respect, he’s a stand-in for Thaksin, who took a similar line towards press inquiry.
Does PAD care about foreign perceptions of their right-wing revolution? Probably not.
A PAD strategy?
Jim Taylor you like polls don’t you?
I refer you to a poll at
http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/
and by a vote of 3:0 (Bangkok Pundit, Fonzi(TJTS) and Vichai N), Thaksin was unanimously voted as ‘Thailand’s Mother of all Corruption’ still.
That is why current PM Samak is in big trouble because he continues to be overly protective of Thaksin Shinawatra.
A PAD strategy?
Jim Taylor: Welcome back, there are a few outstanding questions for you over at this thread:
http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2008/08/11/pad-and-the-democrats-will-miss-thaksin/
(see post #37 onwards)
You may also be interested in my proposed (laymans, non academic) solution to the current standoff, which I have briefly outlined here:
http://www.nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/
I am trying to be constuctive
🙂
A PAD strategy?
Matty what corruption? Thaksin?? this has not been proven at all that he or his government were any more or less corrupt than the previous governments- unless you want to condemn someone on the propagandising and inconclusive bullshit of PSTV’s Sondhi Lim and his media cronies. Thaksin did not break any laws while he was in government. Unless you want to believe a judiciary stacked by khor Mor Chor with anti-Thaksinites still trying to legitimise their illegal actions against Thailand’s progressive 1997 Constitution. Incidently, you may not know this, but Sondhi has a personal grudge on Thaksin that goes back to 2001. The whole issue involving Thaksin is personal. Sondhi is, and has been for a long time, heavily indebt and wanted Thaksin to bail him out using his influence. Needless to say he did not do that. Sondhi aspired to be like Thaksin and could not make it. His cunning and talent is to make this into a public vendetta through spins, lies and fiery empty-rhetoric day in day out over some five years. This has had an impressive brainwashing impact in Thailand especially among middle classes. Sondhi, PAD and their well-paid small “army of louts” and junkies bused in from the south (Baht 3,000/head) are losers. As are the Democrats (hoping to make a government through any means), the seventy-six Senators emplaced by people appointed by Khor Mor Chor, and of course the Puppet Master Prem and his elite and corrupt disgruntled cohorts. These are the folk behind the small but extermely noisy and well financed rebellion aginst a legitimately elected popular government. PPP have been judged not on performance as they have never been allowed to govern. So how can they be criticised? When Samak campaigned he said those who do not favour the coup choice him; those who do not want the current illicit 2007 Constitution (which protects the coup makers and their cronies) choose PPP. He made it clear before elections this was his agenda. The day he announced his government PAD made the comment on the intent to bring the democratically elected PPP down. PAD are a small dictatorship and have made it clear that even if they bring the current government down they want a say in the election of the next PM and a stacked 70:30 system of government. What democracy is this? Be better informed boys.
Still no word from the protector of the nation
Dog Lover: I basically agree that would be a good thing, and hopefully it can occur without bloodshed.
It’s a bit of a chicken and egg thing – does the King intervening cause the politicians to never be able to sort things out themselves, or is it because the politicians cannot sort things out that the King is forced to intervene?
There are arguments on both sides, but IMO the jury is still out on that question.
I post on these threads for one reason only: To hammer away at the notion that the country needs politicians with integrity & humility – once that is achieved, the monarchy will become as irrelevant as a constitututional monarchy should be.
Still no word from the protector of the nation
nganadeleg: “btw, whilst I think the last 60 years in Thailand would have been much worse without the King around, I don’t believe the King can do no wrong, and I think his biggest failure has been not preparing the country well enough for his passing.
(or not allowing the country to prepare).”
An interesting point, but in a constitutional monarchy it should not matter what happens when the king dies. He’s just replaced by the heir apparent in an orderly and legal manner.
Hence, as others have pointed out, preparing for his passing and the continuance of the constitutional monarchy and the house of Chakri might have been best served by working for a strong parliamentary system. Rather, the king has made things worse for Thais and his successors by making himself seem indispensable to each political crisis. That means the monarchy is always in danger.
And it could get worse. If the king does throw more support behind Samak what lesson do the PADites draw?
Remember that he has supported him to date (so I think this thread is a bit off track in its initial question). Think of the previous PAD D-Day, when the king met and publicly supported Ai Mak.
If the PADites see the king as having failed them and if the Thaksinites already think this way following the coup (you really think there’s no evidence of palace intervention in that event??), then the monarchy loses big time in terms of its current ideological position.
Personally, I think that might be a good thing, but I wonder if palace insiders see that they may need to make yet another deal with Sonthi Lim and Chamlong in order to preserve their own position?
Royalist elite vs Thaksin’s loyalists
Thaksin’s loyalists depending and still stay in government? Peoples more and more angry! and the next angry…coup???..
PAD: fighting the “last war”
note, please dont confuse Sondhi, the media owner (Manager website and magazine, ASTV) who led the PAD protests last time and is again
and
Sonthi, the retired general that led the coup and the junta the ran Thailand in 2007
I assume they are (financial) mates at least
meanwhile here is my summary of the politics and protests.
Crack down
NO BACKING DOWN in Thailand
With foreboding shall we all greet tomorrow’s morning because both the PAD and Samak’s government will ‘NOT BACK DOWN’. And heaven forbid the ‘showdown’ because neither side won’t back down! But knowing the intransigence of Chamlong-Sondhi and the pugnacity of Samak, I get sick that the outcome could be worse than my direst fears.
Political lessons learned from revered authors (of names long forgotten) dictate a reasoned conclusion that Samak Sundaravej will be within his constitutional authority and duty to protect the Office of the Thai Prime Minister (and related government ministries) by all means, including force, if necessary. The PAD had gravely overreached , the PAD and their leaders had deliberately broken the nation’s laws and had defied the Thai constitution with their current protests.
But tomorrow or the next when blood starts being spilled on the streets, and, the protesters are gassed and violently struck with police truncheons TO ENFORCE THE LAW I will be feeling an angry despair that the lawless protesters had failed, and, the victorious Samak Sundaravej will continue to sit, rightfully, as Prime Minister of Thailand.
“We love Thailand”
Hi Leif and Roger,
A Chinese-speaking friend of mine agrees with Roger’s translation. For reference, they break it down to:
“tai = Thai
hua = Chinese/Sino
The character “yi” means “descendent”. It is a standard character used in words such as “Huayi” (overseas Chinese) or “Meiyi” (overseas/expatriate American).
ai=love
I can only see the top half of the last character. It does appear to be “tai”, though, and this would make sense. The only question is whether there is a “guo” afterwards, which would be a more complete rendering of “Thailand”. Just having the “tai” though, is acceptable.”
——-
In my experience most р╕ер╕╣р╕Бр╕Ир╕╡р╕Щ I know would have trouble reading this. If anyone has a chance to chat with someone wearing one of these shirts out and about in Bangkok I think many New Mandala readers would like to know more.
These shirts, and the message they proclaim, are an intriguing element of the wider story of protest, politics and belonging.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
“We love Thailand”
I wonder if the king still loves PAD as much as they claim to love him? I also wonder if the lukchin, who were big supporters of PAD remain that committed these days? The evidence seems to be that PAD lost the support of both groups. Their main backers now appear to be right-wing military leaders and former ISOC neo-fascists. They might also be lukchin, but the middle-class lukchin seem to be offside.
Crack down
I forgot to mention that I think it’s about time the PAD protesters went home and had a wash and a sleep!
It seems the same old issues have been around for years and will be around for quite some time to come, so I dont see why they need to bring it all to a head this week.
Give Samak a chance to govern – if he has not taken the right lesson from this weeks events then there will be other (more appropriate) times to resume the protests.
Crack down
Bob: Law and order?
Thats a microscopic way of looking at a much bigger problem, but hey, we are all entitled to an opinion!
btw, since when did addressing legitimate concerns have to mean disenfranchising Isaan and the North?
Laos ne s’est pas fait en un jour!
“Looking forward to this indeed. Further to the first comment, the real issue of course is whether there will be a Lao language version.”
I’ve seen collections of papers in French that have done this in the past in the Siam Society library.
The real problem is probably the availability and budget for skilled translators.
Translation is an extremely valuable value-adding activity, yet is not usually adequately rewarded. I’ve heard of translators that have given up because there was no reward either financially or name-recognition-wise.
Good reason for a special permanent “designated translator’ position, instead of outsourcing it, as always seems to be done in organisations.
More academic recognition for translation work, especially of primary sources, would probably lead to more people producing higher quality translations. (I, for one, value a thorough annotated translation, rather than more second or third hand ruminations on a source that is not available to people with the proper linguistic skills.)
Crack down
What hobby said was an idealistic situation (except for the part about education of the mass), but dirty reality tend to differ.
The reason for Thailand not even reached the ‘in theory’ stage is not because of education, but because there is a “referee”. Like two siblings when they have problems and would look up to daddy for final ruling, instead of solving the problem themselves like a grown man.
For PAD to demand a legitimate government to resign is impossible, however, if for withdrawn the constitution amendmend for say 2 years in exchange for the PAD to stop protest and PAD leaders turn themselves in. That could be a starter deal each can bring to negotiation table.
If the PAD willing to attend the table, that is…
“We love Thailand”
I’m fascinated by the selection of photos and their order on the “We Love Thailand” web site fascinating. It seems that representations have changed since I was last paying attention to this topic in the late 1990s. Very interesting about who is heavily represented — and who is not but once would have been. Also, anyone have any comment on the order of the photos?