Of all the government agencies, the Thai Ministry of Interior must win top rank for its manifestations of sycophantism. One interesting point of observation also comes to mind: if any monarch needs so much protection, where is the trust that should exist between him and his populace?
re Vichai N (#32): Thaksin went to New York to attend the opening of the UN General Assembly session, standard operating procedure. And the streets of Bangkok were more or less devoid of protesters that day, rather than boiling, as the phase of marathon mass protests had not yet started.
It’s a pity to see PAD fantasy history cited as fact. I thought we were over that.
I guess the answer to your question is that Central World has become the most talked about of those scenes of looting and arson. Is there a possibility that others who were not with the protesters were involved? Of course, but doesn’t Andrew Marshall himself say you need very good reasons not to apply the law of Occam’s Razor, that is looking at the simplest and most obvious cause first.
Now you bring up the other arson attempts. I was actually briefly at the attempt to burn the SET building, which was on the following day if I remember correctly. This seemed to be mainly local lads although obviously there could have been agent provocateurs. I drove down from the Sukhumvit Road end Rachada-Pisek and the few police that were around had parked in front of the exhibition hall. There were no troops in sight. I guess the closest would have been back down Rama 4.
There were 5 questions from Marshall but I’ll only address the first one: 1. WHO STARTED THE FIRE THAT DESTROYED CENTRAL WORLD?
People could get the wrong impression that during the Red Shirts rampage following the military crackdown that only one Bangkok building was the target of arson. Wikipedia reported: “Red-Shirts protesters set fire to the Stock Exchange, banks, at least two shopping centres (including Central World at the Red-Shirts main protest site), a TV station, a cinema which burnt to the ground, and hotels had to build barricades to protect themselves. The total number of burnt buildings was 35.”
If the violent Red Shirts on a rampage of arson and looting were burning buildings left and right of Bangkok during BlackMay2010, why would ‘government military explosives squad’ need to particularly eviscerate Central Rachaprasong just ‘to pass the blame to the Red Shirts’? Makes no sense, right?
The Egyptians will be getting a new constitution to clean up their political system. They were on the streets to demonstrate against the corruption of the Mubarak regime.
Here in Thailand, and on New Mandala, we have people who want the last constitution scrapped because it was far too hard on corrupt politicians and vote buying.
I guess another first for Thailand. We already have a pro-democracy movement where people are paid to attend protests and now a pro-democracy movement that wants less rules on political corruption.
Something smells a bit strange I think. Could it be the smell of money?
I wonder what would happen in Australia if, let’s say Rupert Murdoch started a campaign to allow vote buying. How would that go down in ANU;-)
Am I really the only one from either side of the debate that has an opinion on this article? I am surprised as I thought it rather good. How about the 11 people, so far, that gave me a ‘thumbs down’, what do you think? Is Marshall correct about the Abhisit government? Is he right about Thaksin?
“On the other hand, if the Democrats and their coalition partners look vulnerable, expect more surveys and opinion pieces highlighting the moral bankruptcy of the electorate. And if Pheua Thai succeed in forming government after the election the vote-buying bogeyman will be well-and-truly back in business.” – Andrew Walker
Well if that is the case Andrew Walker & the pro-Thaksin apologists, what are you all waiting for? Start the propaganda presses rolling then and there is no better time than now to grind out all those thought-provoking theses and articles (ala Amsterdam, Marshall or the Walker-Farrelly duo) that those Thai vote buying or vote selling is a culture, so why fight it?
not sure why NM has to highlight ABAC Poll given the orgs pro-regime credentials under its director Noppadol Kannika, who is also advisor to the government in various capacities including Ministry of Finance, Narcotics, and Justice, Director and Chairman of The Public Opinion Section, & so on. He manages to come up with a poll supporting current Govt whatever given the plasticity of generating responses. e.g. he managed to justify the regime’s corruption of some Billion 200 Bt, concluding, well, it is fine as long as people are happy with the governing regime! the same poll could be used to bring a regime down in credibility/esteem [- as they did to Thaksin’s GOVT] all the while claiming scientific method? and of course the use of randomly selected respondents… ABAC Polling is seemingly driven by pro-amaat political motivation and are far from being reliable and value-free…Aside from the above, how can such a poll in question determine people selling their vote? people may say one thing and do something else, or make their own free choice as active agents…Bottom line: if it looks good for the purpose intended- then use it, or twist it a bit!!
No, I didn’t compare him to Hitler. That was “anonymous” above. But for the record I don’t believe Hitler was “kind” or particularly intelligent. Common etiquette on this forum (and others of its ilk) is that any discussion ends at the first mention of Hitler and the Nazis.
The vote-buying is not always conclusive. I venture to say that people here in Thailand that accept money for votes will tend to still vote the way their proclivities indicate they should – for whatever reason. If someone in the neighborhood is handing out money, why not take it? As well, those handing out the money are paying closer attention to stated or known positions of people they are giving the cash to. They will not, of course, hand out to anyone they know is against their candidate of choice – itself a misnomer because the local municipalities and other government officials already know who should be supported. The bribes have been paid and political posts promised.
Thanx dear, this is the place call miao in which i was born and brought up. i have spent 16 yrs in this beautiful town near river dihing. your pix’s of dihing river remind me my school day. Me and my frnd’s use to play, bath and fishing in this river.now i m shifted to urban place for work but your pix again remind me my childhood days… Very very thanks NICHOLAR.
What a refreshing and eye-opening contribution. One that has inspired me to ‘feed’ a couple of Eh Law Saw tracks to some of my Karen students, on the Thai side of the border. The initial responses have been very positive.
A good attempt to give the benefit of the doubt, personally I would not be so generous. In my opinion there is just too much evidence to contradict what you suggest.
One might, with equal credibility, offer the suggestion that Adolf Hitler was really a nice and decent guy who got carried away with the momentum of it all. After all, he loved dogs as well. But it just doesn’t wash.
The thing with being all-powerful and at the top is that you must take responsibility, not only for for the things you do, but for everything you allow to be done in your name. Come the day when you are held accountable, and that day will come, even if it comes posthumously in this case.
The really amazing thing is that they think the day will not come.
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by South Sider , New Mandala. New Mandala said: Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora: Tae Ta Blo Hay Ya A’kwet (Give Me Another Chance) by Eh Law Saw – 2010 –… http://bit.ly/hHzgqY […]
Thanks Les, but in fact I didn’t write it. Violet Cho did. I forgot to reset the author before I posted it. I have done so now. Apologies to all, especially Violet!
Great article Andrew. Without trying in any way to be a music expert, what it shows me is that if anyone goes looking for traditional cultures in young people they are due a surprise, whether they’re Thai, Karen or I suspect Burmese.
My daughters are older than Eh Law Saw or Saw Kalu but I saw them and their friends pay lip service to the Thai culture taught at school while joining the global MTV generation. I have no idea if MTV is still the culture leader, but in many ways it’s not a bad thing to dump the worse parts of some of the traditional cultures.
Having said that I wish they hadn’t dumped sin sod at the same time;-)
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Volunteering to protect Thailand’s “institution”
Of all the government agencies, the Thai Ministry of Interior must win top rank for its manifestations of sycophantism. One interesting point of observation also comes to mind: if any monarch needs so much protection, where is the trust that should exist between him and his populace?
Coup talk in Thailand
re Vichai N (#32): Thaksin went to New York to attend the opening of the UN General Assembly session, standard operating procedure. And the streets of Bangkok were more or less devoid of protesters that day, rather than boiling, as the phase of marathon mass protests had not yet started.
It’s a pity to see PAD fantasy history cited as fact. I thought we were over that.
Understanding Bangkok’s bloody April-May 2010
Vichai N – 4
I guess the answer to your question is that Central World has become the most talked about of those scenes of looting and arson. Is there a possibility that others who were not with the protesters were involved? Of course, but doesn’t Andrew Marshall himself say you need very good reasons not to apply the law of Occam’s Razor, that is looking at the simplest and most obvious cause first.
Now you bring up the other arson attempts. I was actually briefly at the attempt to burn the SET building, which was on the following day if I remember correctly. This seemed to be mainly local lads although obviously there could have been agent provocateurs. I drove down from the Sukhumvit Road end Rachada-Pisek and the few police that were around had parked in front of the exhibition hall. There were no troops in sight. I guess the closest would have been back down Rama 4.
Understanding Bangkok’s bloody April-May 2010
There were 5 questions from Marshall but I’ll only address the first one: 1. WHO STARTED THE FIRE THAT DESTROYED CENTRAL WORLD?
People could get the wrong impression that during the Red Shirts rampage following the military crackdown that only one Bangkok building was the target of arson. Wikipedia reported: “Red-Shirts protesters set fire to the Stock Exchange, banks, at least two shopping centres (including Central World at the Red-Shirts main protest site), a TV station, a cinema which burnt to the ground, and hotels had to build barricades to protect themselves. The total number of burnt buildings was 35.”
If the violent Red Shirts on a rampage of arson and looting were burning buildings left and right of Bangkok during BlackMay2010, why would ‘government military explosives squad’ need to particularly eviscerate Central Rachaprasong just ‘to pass the blame to the Red Shirts’? Makes no sense, right?
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
The Egyptians will be getting a new constitution to clean up their political system. They were on the streets to demonstrate against the corruption of the Mubarak regime.
Here in Thailand, and on New Mandala, we have people who want the last constitution scrapped because it was far too hard on corrupt politicians and vote buying.
I guess another first for Thailand. We already have a pro-democracy movement where people are paid to attend protests and now a pro-democracy movement that wants less rules on political corruption.
Something smells a bit strange I think. Could it be the smell of money?
I wonder what would happen in Australia if, let’s say Rupert Murdoch started a campaign to allow vote buying. How would that go down in ANU;-)
Understanding Bangkok’s bloody April-May 2010
Am I really the only one from either side of the debate that has an opinion on this article? I am surprised as I thought it rather good. How about the 11 people, so far, that gave me a ‘thumbs down’, what do you think? Is Marshall correct about the Abhisit government? Is he right about Thaksin?
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
“On the other hand, if the Democrats and their coalition partners look vulnerable, expect more surveys and opinion pieces highlighting the moral bankruptcy of the electorate. And if Pheua Thai succeed in forming government after the election the vote-buying bogeyman will be well-and-truly back in business.” – Andrew Walker
Well if that is the case Andrew Walker & the pro-Thaksin apologists, what are you all waiting for? Start the propaganda presses rolling then and there is no better time than now to grind out all those thought-provoking theses and articles (ala Amsterdam, Marshall or the Walker-Farrelly duo) that those Thai vote buying or vote selling is a culture, so why fight it?
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
not sure why NM has to highlight ABAC Poll given the orgs pro-regime credentials under its director Noppadol Kannika, who is also advisor to the government in various capacities including Ministry of Finance, Narcotics, and Justice, Director and Chairman of The Public Opinion Section, & so on. He manages to come up with a poll supporting current Govt whatever given the plasticity of generating responses. e.g. he managed to justify the regime’s corruption of some Billion 200 Bt, concluding, well, it is fine as long as people are happy with the governing regime! the same poll could be used to bring a regime down in credibility/esteem [- as they did to Thaksin’s GOVT] all the while claiming scientific method? and of course the use of randomly selected respondents… ABAC Polling is seemingly driven by pro-amaat political motivation and are far from being reliable and value-free…Aside from the above, how can such a poll in question determine people selling their vote? people may say one thing and do something else, or make their own free choice as active agents…Bottom line: if it looks good for the purpose intended- then use it, or twist it a bit!!
Foo Foo and the international press
Sorry to continue the discussion after the ‘AH’ name has been invoked, but it reminds me of something that was recommended as a way for an outsider to get an understanding of how the Thai ‘system’ operates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Kershaw#The_.22Working_Towards_the_F.C3.BChrer.22_concept
btw, I’m not implying all ‘father/leaders’ are the same.
Foo Foo and the international press
@Incredulous
No, I didn’t compare him to Hitler. That was “anonymous” above. But for the record I don’t believe Hitler was “kind” or particularly intelligent. Common etiquette on this forum (and others of its ilk) is that any discussion ends at the first mention of Hitler and the Nazis.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
The vote-buying is not always conclusive. I venture to say that people here in Thailand that accept money for votes will tend to still vote the way their proclivities indicate they should – for whatever reason. If someone in the neighborhood is handing out money, why not take it? As well, those handing out the money are paying closer attention to stated or known positions of people they are giving the cash to. They will not, of course, hand out to anyone they know is against their candidate of choice – itself a misnomer because the local municipalities and other government officials already know who should be supported. The bribes have been paid and political posts promised.
Crossing a river in Arunachal Pradesh
Thanx dear, this is the place call miao in which i was born and brought up. i have spent 16 yrs in this beautiful town near river dihing. your pix’s of dihing river remind me my school day. Me and my frnd’s use to play, bath and fishing in this river.now i m shifted to urban place for work but your pix again remind me my childhood days… Very very thanks NICHOLAR.
Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora
What a refreshing and eye-opening contribution. One that has inspired me to ‘feed’ a couple of Eh Law Saw tracks to some of my Karen students, on the Thai side of the border. The initial responses have been very positive.
Foo Foo and the international press
Did Stuart just compare the king to hitler. Unfortunately, any point he is trying to make is drowned out by the unsubtle plunge of the knife.
Foo Foo and the international press
@Stuart ^^:
A good attempt to give the benefit of the doubt, personally I would not be so generous. In my opinion there is just too much evidence to contradict what you suggest.
One might, with equal credibility, offer the suggestion that Adolf Hitler was really a nice and decent guy who got carried away with the momentum of it all. After all, he loved dogs as well. But it just doesn’t wash.
The thing with being all-powerful and at the top is that you must take responsibility, not only for for the things you do, but for everything you allow to be done in your name. Come the day when you are held accountable, and that day will come, even if it comes posthumously in this case.
The really amazing thing is that they think the day will not come.
Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by South Sider , New Mandala. New Mandala said: Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora: Tae Ta Blo Hay Ya A’kwet (Give Me Another Chance) by Eh Law Saw – 2010 –… http://bit.ly/hHzgqY […]
Foo Foo and the international press
So does the dog draw a salary?
Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora
Well done Violet then, it was a good article.
And I was thinking Andrew was much younger than he looks;-)
Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora
Thanks Les, but in fact I didn’t write it. Violet Cho did. I forgot to reset the author before I posted it. I have done so now. Apologies to all, especially Violet!
Rocking and rapping the Karen diaspora
Great article Andrew. Without trying in any way to be a music expert, what it shows me is that if anyone goes looking for traditional cultures in young people they are due a surprise, whether they’re Thai, Karen or I suspect Burmese.
My daughters are older than Eh Law Saw or Saw Kalu but I saw them and their friends pay lip service to the Thai culture taught at school while joining the global MTV generation. I have no idea if MTV is still the culture leader, but in many ways it’s not a bad thing to dump the worse parts of some of the traditional cultures.
Having said that I wish they hadn’t dumped sin sod at the same time;-)